OT: Baseball HOF

[shu09]

I feel this has become so watered down over the last decade. Adrian Beltre and Todd Helton? Really? Beltre has the magic number of 3,000 hits but that's partially because he played 21 seasons. He never won an MVP award and was only an all-star in just four of those 21 years. Never won a World Series and only hit .261 in 28 postseason games. Never once did I watch him play and think future HOFer.

Helton has the great career batting average but didn't come close to getting 3,000 hits. He had a great 4-5 year stretch but nothing else really jumps off the page at you. And then of course there is the Colorado effect. Hit only .211 in a very limited postseason career.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I feel this has become so watered down over the last decade. Adrian Beltre and Todd Helton? Really? Beltre has the magic number of 3,000 hits but that's partially because he played 21 seasons. He never won a MVP award and was only an all-star in just four of those 21 years. Never won a World Series and only hit .261 in 28 postseason games. Never once did I watch him play and think future HOFer.

Helton has the great career batting average but didn't come close to getting 3,000 hits. He had a great 4-5 year stretch but nothing else really jumps off the page at you. And then of course there is the Colorado effect. Hit only .211 in a very limited postseason career.

A player in baseball has no control if the teams he played for gets the fortune of postseason or world series appearances.
Postseason can be 3 weeks where a season is 6 months.
Kershaw is a first ballot hofer but his postseason experience would say not so much. Yes he has a ring but his franchise also drafted/developed well and had the money to bring the team to postseasons and world series a lot.

Beltre aged well and was putting up great body of work for his position the last quarter of his career and is deserving of hof and look he got 95 percent of vote.
Mauer and Helton different, not sure how dominating they were at their positions both ways over time.
Billy Wagner should be in hof, he should be voted in next year. His advanced metrics are dominating.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Beltre:
all-time leader in hits (3,166), RBI (1,707), XBH (1,151) and total bases (5,309) among third basemen in MLB history

Also a 20+ d WAR

 

[Halldan1]

Adrian Beltre, Joe Mauer and Todd Helton elected to Baseball Hall of Fame

Cooperstown is getting more crowded this summer.

nypost.com

 

[hinson32]

First Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

First Base JAWS Leaders

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[hinson32]

Third Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Third Base JAWS Leaders

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[shu09]

I've always felt the HOF should be reserved for the true greats of the game, not just any good player. Nobody denies these guys were all good, but were they great? I don't think so.

I think part of the reason is MLB wants to have that weekend in Cooperstown every summer. Can't have it if you have nobody to induct, so they have to pick someone.

 

[SHUSource]

Beltre never "felt" like a Hall of Famer to me, and I was surprised at his numbers once he retired. They are what they are, so I think there are a few other phenomena to consider that affect my biases.

1. I never really saw him play much regularly. Seriously: He spent the first 11 years of his career playing on the West Coast. From 1998 through 2004, he was a Dodger and I was watching Yankees games in North Jersey, and so I had limited opportunities to see him in the course of my natural viewing. He spent the next five (05-'09) in Seattle, where it was much the same. I'm not staying up to watch 10:30 games in Seattle and seldom was watching when the M's came to the Bronx. In fact, those last two years, I had moved out of the New York DMA and was watching National League baseball. And actually, he spent the rest of his career in the AL, so I wasn't watching him regularly, except for those odd times when his teams played the Phillies in interleague action, and that's limited.

2. In my own experience, players who played during the time I was an adult, and I was approaching 30 when Beltre broke in, lack some of the mystique of the legends I grew up reading about. Eddie Mathews is a no-doubt HoFer to me, and Beltre does not compare unfavorably to him. But in my mind, Mathews - who I never saw play - is a titan. Beltre is a guy who I knew played, but never really took in. I didn't know about him from books or baseball lore.

To a large extent, I can say the same thing about Todd Helton, who is also deserving when I look at him on paper. Joe Mauer was really, really good, too. I wouldn't have voted for him in his first year on the ballot, but he belongs. I just would've made him wait a little bit. First-year entry seems like an endorsement of the idea that his candidacy has no shortcoming when it does - particularly the length of career. That still hurts Mattingly.

Glad Billy Wagner didn't make it, although he almost certainly will next year. I'm not a fan of relievers being in the Hall of Fame, espcailly the latter-day, one-inning guys, and won't apologize for that.

 

[Seton75]

I've always felt the HOF should be reserved for the true greats of the game, not just any good player. Nobody denies these guys were all good, but were they great? I don't think so.

I think part of the reason is MLB wants to have that weekend in Cooperstown every summer. Can't have it if you have nobody to induct, so they have to pick someone.

I think the only response to your post is "Exactly".

I read some guy once saying if you have to think about whether someone should be in the HOF, then they should not be in it. Don Sutton, helluva pitcher. Long and good career. HOF? Hell no!

 

[Seton75]

My only thought about Beltre is I cant believe the Dodgers let him walk.

 

[shu09]

Glad Billy Wagner didn't make it, although he almost certainly will next year. I'm not a fan of relievers being in the Hall of Fame, espcailly the latter-day, one-inning guys, and won't apologize for that.

I fear he is going to make it next year, but I agree. Not a HOFer in my book.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Beltre was a hell of third baseman. I loved watching him play. Not that anyone cares about defense today.

But in my opinion, when it comes to HOF or not, you should be able to answer yes in 1 second. If you for any reason have to think about it, look up stats, find a way to justify your answer, then the answer is no. Only Joe Mauer should have gotten in as far as I'm concerned

 

[SHUSource]

But in my opinion, when it comes to HOF or not, you should be able to answer yes in 1 second. If you for any reason have to think about it, look up stats, find a way to justify your answer, then the answer is no.

I've always said this, but as I said in my long-winded post above, I am aware of some biases I have that may have shaped my opinion on someone like Beltre. In view of his statistics, and his superior glove work at third (I care, probably more now than ever!), he belongs there. He would've failed my one-second test, but I think that's more of an indictment of me and my knowledge of him than it is of he himself.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I've always said this

Then you're a smart man. LOL

 

[Burnsly]

Mauer was massively over rated & his stats pale in comparison to the other two. How many middle of the lineup Hall of Famer's never had 100 RBI in a season.

 

[Pirates13]

Mauer was massively over rated & his stats pale in comparison to the other two. How many middle of the lineup Hall of Famer's never had 100 RBI in a season.

How many Hall of Famer’s won 3 batting title? Not many…

Plus there have been 7 batting titles won by catchers in history and Joe Mauer has 3 of them. That is dominance at his position historically.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Love the Mauer induction. as it helps make the case for mysel....errr Don Mattingly

😂

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Mauer was massively over rated & his stats pale in comparison to the other two. How many middle of the lineup Hall of Famer's never had 100 RBI in a season.

Would love to know how the other 2 would do squatting down for 2 hours per game and taking foul balls off the foremarms, legs and helmet. And he was a very good catcher at all aspects, blocking, framing and he had a hose.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I fear he is going to make it next year, but I agree. Not a HOFer in my book.

What is your merit for this assessment?

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I've always felt the HOF should be reserved for the true greats of the game, not just any good player. Nobody denies these guys were all good, but were they great? I don't think so.

I think part of the reason is MLB wants to have that weekend in Cooperstown every summer. Can't have it if you have nobody to induct, so they have to pick someone.

Bbwaa has voted to not have any player in back in the early 2010s...they still have a weekend for the older era if voted in and for print and broadcast distinguish awards...

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I fear he is going to make it next year, but I agree. Not a HOFer in my book.

 

[TheHall87]

Jayson Stark of The Athletic does a wonderful (and lengthy) column every year regarding his HOF ballot. It's a very detailed reading of his thought process on voting or not voting for players.

The one-second rule has gone the way of using wins and batting average as the main arbiters of what determines a Hall of Famer. Many voters today take a much more nuanced look at who is or isn't a HOFer and it is often a position that evolves over several years.

My own personal takes:

Beltre absolutely deserves to be in. One of the best all-around third baseman of his era not to mention history. 3,166 hits, 477 HR over 1,700 RBI. Five Gold Gloves. Six top 10 MVP finishes including a second and a third.

He was productive over the course of his career. Over his last nine seasons, he hit .300 or better six times and never less than .273. At age 37, he hit .300 with 32 HR, 104 RBI and added 31 doubles. He also posted up every day playing 150 or more games in 10 seasons and 140 or more another four.

Mauer, for the days he was primarily a catcher, is probably the greatest hitting catcher of all-time. He won three batting championships and hit .365 and .347 in separate seasons. He hit .300 or better seven times as a catcher (and once more after moving to first base) He won an MVP and finished top 10 three other times in a five-year span and also claimed three Gold Glove awards.

In my view, he was already a Hall of Famer after 2013, his last season as a catcher. The one knock on him is he didn't hit for much power, something that made him a last than ideal offensive first baseman. But those first 10 years. Whoo.

The Coors Field effect complicates Todd Helton's candidacy. Between 1998-2007, Helton's peak years, he slashed .296/.395/.504/.899 on the road. Yes, Coors inflated his numbers some but the guy could mash. He hit .316 for his career and delivered over 2,500 hits. He hit .372 one year and had an OPS of better than 1.000 for five consecutive seasons (he bracketed that with seasons of .981 and .979). Again, I think he deserved to get in.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Bud Selig, Donald Fehr’s neglect helped ruin Hall of Fame

The antagonists in this case remain former MLB commissioner and fast-tracked Hall of Famer Bud Selig, and ex-MLBPA boss Donald Fehr.

nypost.com