Positionless Teams

[400SOAVE]

There's an expression going around college basketball this off-season. Some teams say they're "positionless." I first heard Calipari say it.

I like that idea. Play the five best players on your team.

For SHU that happens to work out since the core-four of Whitehead, Delgado, Carrington and Rodriguez are the best four players. And they play different "positions."

As for the 5th spot, give it to the best player regardless of position. Really, that should always be the case. Give playing time to your best players. Those are usually the ones who practice the hardest, are team-oriented, have great attitudes and know their Xs & Os. (Plus they study and get the grades.)

It's also great for team morale, and a way to build a culture. Reward the best and the hardest workers.

 

[HallBall02]

I see your point but I wouldn't always agree with it. Id rather play each player at their best position than force them to play out of position...this goes with offense (who has the ball in hands, who is in the paint, who stays on perimiter) and defense (who covers the big center, speedy pg). This all can make a great player at one position neutralized when shifted out of his best position.

In my opinion unless playing a very small team, Delgado has to play 4, desi 3, and the combination of whitehead carrington and Gordon at 1 and 2. Throw whoever at 5 to play the center, get rebounds and be a presence in the paint.


This won't happen but this is what I think should happen given the depth at guard and our failed experiment last year.

 

[JIMSOULS]

Calipari can say this since his team has great talent. Seton Hall is not Kentucky.

 

[400SOAVE]

I understand both your points, 02 and SOULS. They're valid and real world.

Nevertheless, I don't believe in keeping great players on the bench because they don't fit the coaching formula.

If you have a great PG, yes, of course, make sure that great ball handler and passer plays PG. Beyond that, give the PT to your best players.

 

[cernjSHU]

You can only have a "positionless" team if you have players who are between 6'5" and 6'9" and very athletic throughout your lineup. This is not anything new. In 1989, Illinois had one of these teams. Nick Anderson, Marcus Liberty, Kenny Battle and company was such a team. They were a very athletic team that could roam and interchange players. You cannot do it when you have the players we have who are 6' and 6'4". They must be more traditional roles.

However, the point is well taken about playing your best basketball players. It is something many of us on this board called for by wanting Desi playing the three last year along side Gibbs and Whitehead, Mobley and Delgado. That was the 5 best players the team had last year and they never saw the floor together or very rarely.

 

[400SOAVE]

cernj, you've brought back some unpleasant memories of SHU players sitting on the bench when I felt they should be getting a lot PT.

Bryan Caver comes to mind... and Adrian Griffin... and Justin Cerasoli. Yes, I said Cerasoli who was an unbelievable passer and who made perhaps the two best shot blocks I've seen from a Seton Hall player.

 

[Bud Boomer]

St. John's made the tournament last year with Dom Pointer playing power forward. I don't think they would have made it with Amir Alibegovich playing there instead. Smaller lineups are not ideal, but sometimes you don't have much of a choice.

 

[HallBall02]

We have no depth at guard..we need to play the combination of whitehead carrington and Gordon at the 1 and 2. Otherwise we will get tired and in foul trouble.

Delgado is a 4, he sucked in D because he was playing much bigger guys at center. Think about how much more effective he will be at rebounding, scoring and defense when he plays as a 4.

Desi I admit is a question mark at the wing but if Willard did his job and told him to work on his dribbling and 15 ft jumper, I think he will work there.

We have like 8 guys at the power forward and center position, one guy just needs to step up and be a serviceable big.

 

[Pirate6711]

Yes, I said Cerasoli who was an unbelievable passer and who made perhaps the two best shot blocks I've seen from a Seton Hall player.

Cerasoli would have gotten more PT if he put forth any sort of effort. He quit on the team multiple times throughout that season and deserved his suspension (foolishly masked as an injury) and his transfer/dismissal was not surprising. It was also not surprising that he quit on another team and was a part-time starter in the Horizon League. He had all the talent, thought he was the greatest, but never showed it on the court, primarily because of his own choices.

 

[shupat08]

Cerasoli was ranked 1 spot behind Joakim Noah and roughly 60 spots ahead of Rodney Stuckey.

He was a legit player. But a headcase.

 

[Pirate6711]

Cerasoli was ranked 1 spot behind Joakim Noah and roughly 60 spots ahead of Rodney Stuckey.

He was a legit player. But a headcase.

Right. And you don't just play a player if the cons outweigh the pure talent.

 

[knowknow456]

Generally, positionless refers more frequently to defense than to offense. The ability to guard multiple people, move in defensive rotations and switch on screens is what makes players positionless. .

 

[Shuathelete]

Villanova 4 guard lineup.

 

[Seton75]

cernj, you've brought back some unpleasant memories of SHU players sitting on the bench when I felt they should be getting a lot PT.

Bryan Caver comes to mind... and Adrian Griffin... and Justin Cerasoli. Yes, I said Cerasoli who was an unbelievable passer and who made perhaps the two best shot blocks I've seen from a Seton Hall player.

Did you really think AG didn't get enough time? He was in the rotation as a frosh on a top tem team. I also thought that Cerisoli got his time, at the detriment to Copeland. And I supported that decision....IMO, Cerisoli was a 2G, he was a terrific shooter but not as good of a point as I hoped. I was at the JSBL game when he quit at halftime and folled myself into thinking no big deal cause he had obvious talent.

 

[shupat08]

Villanova 4 guard lineup.

And 3 of those 4 guards played/play in the NBA - Kyle Lowry, Randy Foye, Allen Ray.

Foye and Lowry were 1st Round Draft picks and are 9 year NBA veterans. Foye (picked 7th) is making 3 million a year and Lowry (picked 24th) is making 12 million a year. Lowry was also an All-Star this past year.

That team was an exception not a rule.

We MAY have 1 NBA guard on this roster. Not 3.

 

[Shuathelete]

And 3 of those 4 guards played/play in the NBA - Kyle Lowry, Randy Foye, Allen Ray.

Foye and Lowry were 1st Round Draft picks and are 9 year NBA veterans. Foye (picked 7th) is making 3 million a year and Lowry (picked 24th) is making 12 million a year. Lowry was also an All-Star this past year.

That team was an exception not a rule.

We MAY have 1 NBA guard on this roster. Not 3.

I wasnt comparing us, I was giving an example of a team that played their 4 best who werent bigs.

Please do you think I would actually compare our team to that Nova team.

 

[shupat08]

You left that up for interpretation... In a thread about how we should play positionless basketball and there are people who are advocating us to play our only 3 guards + Desi at the same time you simply wrote "Villanova 4 guard lineup"... That's it.

So, yes, I took that as you saying we should play a 3 guard + Desi lineup because it worked when Nova played a 4 guard lineup.

 

[Halldan1]

Not sure I agree that you simply play your best 5 players. There are so many variables that no set formula is a be all and end all.

You have to take into consideration many things..

1. Size of opponent: Can't play small against physical teams with big time size.

2. Can a player or players play away from their natural position: Not all guards can play the 3-4. Or conversely forwards playing the 1-2. Or even centers playing at a forward spot.

3. Match ups: Can't play weak defenders against a strong offensive team.

4. Bench strength: Your starters can't go 40 minutes each so you adjust your game plan around multiple players and combinations.

5. Needs on the court: See match ups. And add other variables.

6. Duplication of skills: You don't want to play a lot of creators with few shooters. You don't want to play a strong rebounding frontcourt who needs others to facilitate their offensive. You don't put all stationary jump shooters on the court if they can't handle the ball. You don't play all strong defenders if none of them can score, etc,etc,etc.

The above are just a few things coaches have to take into consideration when deciding who plays and when.

Coaches get paid to see what is happening on the court and formulate a game plan before and during a contest.

Often that game plan and its execution is the difference between a W or a L.

 

[Shuathelete]

You left that up for interpretation... In a thread about how we should play positionless basketball and there are people who are advocating us to play our only 3 guards + Desi at the same time you simply wrote "Villanova 4 guard lineup"... That's it.

So, yes, I took that as you saying we should play a 3 guard + Desi lineup because it worked when Nova played a 4 guard lineup.

Nah it was more an overall answer to the original post.

However, I do think there will be a decent amount of times where we play 3 guards, desi, and angel. The Big East isnt exactly that "big"

 

[HallBall02]

Dan, who do you want to be the starting 5 players midway through season based off of what you know. Also who do you think will end up being the starting 5?

 

[Halldan1]

Dan, who do you want to be the starting 5 players midway through season based off of what you know. Also who do you think will end up being the starting 5?

At this time the starting lineup is Delgado, Anderson, Rodriquez, Carrington and Whitehead.

That's fine with me.

Regarding Anderson and Delgado. I would lean toward playing Anderson in the middle on D and Delgado in the middle on offense.

From what I have been told Anderson is the better defender. Plus you don't want to get Delgado in foul trouble being in the middle of the action when the opponent has the ball.

I also believe that Delgado will get more rebounds at the 4 than he will at the 5.

On the other side of the court Anderson might have a little more range so his playing the 4 might be the best option.

Of course all this could change once we see both players on the court and watch how much they have improved over the summer.

 

[Shuathelete]

teams are gonna score so many points

 

[shupat08]

teams are gonna score so many points

Let's just hope IW, Desi, KC & Angel can score more... We are going to need like 10-15ppg from each of them.