Bernie Sanders, LOL

[SPK145]

Bernie Sanders proved yet again how much of an idiot he is. From his Twitter:

"You have families out there paying 6, 8, 10 percent on student debt but you can refinance your homes at 3 percent. What sense is that?"

It's called collateral, is the guy really that stupid or does he just think others are???

 

[Merge]

In the traditional sense, I agree....

In the non-traditional sense, there is room for debate. Maybe we could think of the education of our citizens collectively as an asset to our country? Is it a worthwhile investment to help people go to college? Is it a worthwhile investment to have the middle class spend less on interest and put more back into the economy?

 

[SPK145]

Is it worthwile for everyone to go to college? And/or for free?

Make it more available or for free and it's value declines even more.

The availability of college loans through the government is one of the main, if not the main, reasons college is so expensive. Again, simple economics.......

 

[Merge]

I don't feel it should be free, but I also don't think that we would not be able to implement a program which could prevent increased tuition due to the increases buying power from low interest loans.

 

[Seton75]

A National Direct student loan financed half of my SHU education, at well below market rates, fwiw

 

[SnakeTom]

Without Federal,College loans most of us (myself included) would not have been able to attend college at all.

Tom K

 

[HALL85]

Without Federal,College loans most of us (myself included) would not have been able to attend college at all.

Tom K

I think that's an exaggeration. I chose not to go the student loan route. Commuted to Montclair State undergrad and worked through college to pay tuition working in a warehouse. My parents couldn't afford to send four of us to college. I couldn't afford to live on campus. The state college system is very affordable and the CC system provides two and four year programs. There are options without the need to go into debt.

 

[SnakeTom]

I think that's an exaggeration. I chose not to go the student loan route. Commuted to Montclair State undergrad and worked through college to pay tuition working in a warehouse. My parents couldn't afford to send four of us to college. I couldn't afford to live on campus. The state college system is very affordable and the CC system provides two and four year programs. There are options without the need to go into debt.

Good for you but that does not apply for everyone. I also worked my way thru college & law school and without those loans it would have been very difficult if not impossible and I think that applies to many of us. Not an exaggeration at all. College should not be just for the wealthy.

TK

 

[HALL85]

Good for you but that does not apply for everyone. I also worked my way thru college & law school and without those loans it would have been very difficult if not impossible and I think that applies to many of us. Not an exaggeration at all. College should not be just for the wealthy.

TK

I didn't say "everyone". My point is that there a lot of very affordable options that would apply to MOST, if you choose to go to college that don't require going into debt if you don't have the money. They are more limited but you still have multiple options.

 

[Section112]

Good for you but that does not apply for everyone. I also worked my way thru college & law school and without those loans it would have been very difficult if not impossible and I think that applies to many of us. Not an exaggeration at all. College should not be just for the wealthy.

TK

College is not just for the wealthy. There is more student aid and merit aid available now than ever. Not for every school though so you need to seek out the deals where you can. The problem is the pure cost of college and all the crap that goes into it. Student fees to cover sports deficits. Cafeterias that serve sushi. Room and board costing well over $10-12K at just about any school now. Colleges will spend money on anything and there is no stopping the ridiculous and rising costs.

If you talk to credit analysts and underwriters they all say the next big credit crisis is happening and its student debt because the burden has become so large. The rates need to fall a little but the high college costs are really driving the problem. Parents need to be more open to community college for two years and then schollys from state schools. And some states do it better. NJ is not good as our college tuition for state schools is much higher than most other states. Georgia has the Hope scholarship for instance that is fantastic. Individual states need to do a better job IMO of keeping the cost of college more reasonable and for profit private schools will have to follow suit (like SHU offering in state tuition if students hit certain goals). The marketplace has to change but as long as parents pay the high cost of college so they can say their kid goes to BC or one of the hot name schools, the costs will stay high.

Bernie is complaining about a symptom not the problem really driving the costs so high. Can the govt help? Maybe but they need to get their nose out of everything else that is driving Govt spending and they won't.

 

[SPK145]

Government created the college bubble the same way they created the housing bubble: by indescriminately opening up the floodgates to easy money. Simple economics.

 

[cernjSHU]

Government created the college bubble the same way they created the housing bubble: by indescriminately opening up the floodgates to easy money. Simple economics.

This absolute statement, I cannot agree with. Education is never a bad thing. Free education is even better. But with government lending money which is a very good thought, the greed of the universities took over. Colleges and Universities offer up such worthless college degrees, i.e criminal justice. So we have many kids going to college getting bad degrees in which they can't get a job in. The demand to go to college gets greater and the Universities accept more students. What is the major with the most students at Seton Hall and many other colleges?

Criminal Justice.

Like most things, the government has good thoughts about programs, it is the people and businesses that corrupt what is a good idea. This can be applied to many social programs i.e. welfare and unemployment. It can also be applied to getting rid of Glass-Steagall and encouraging home ownership and derivatives. All good ideas. But greed in Wall St corrupt this and almost brings down the financial system.

I don't believe government creates the problems. It is the basic issue with human beings that always is to blame. The incredible greed that exists in mankind.

 

[SPK145]

Cern,

I like your post and agree with much of it but the government starts it all by greasing the wheels, can't blame Wall Street or others for what is the unintended but very obvious consequences.

Greed, like fire, needs a spark, the government usually being that spark without thinking of the consequences of their irresponsible actions.

 

[bluerock]

My financial aid package was good old Rheingold Brewery, E. Orange for my junior and senior year. Made more than enough to cover tuition and had enough left over for Pauls and Jimmy's Roscomon.LOL . Freshman and Sophomore year , I was fortunate to have my parents.

 

[SnakeTom]

My financial aid package was good old Rheingold Brewery, E. Orange for my junior and senior year. Made more than enough to cover tuition and had enough left over for Pauls and Jimmy's Roscomon.LOL . Freshman and Sophomore year , I was fortunate to have my parents.

For what it's worth I worked my way thru college as a shoe salesman for Miles Shoes (A regional Tom McAn subsidiary). I'm told that the Al Bundy character was based on my exploits - LOL.

Tom K

 

[Section112]

For what it's worth I worked my way thru college as a shoe salesman for Miles Shoes (A regional Tom McAn subsidiary). I'm told that the Al Bundy character was based on my exploits - LOL.

Tom K

Funny Tom! I worked 30 hours a week at multiple Pathmarks during college to pay my way through SHU. My father said it built character. I was really good at riding the conveyer belts up and down and finishing my work early so I could hit on the pretty cashiers. So i guess it taught me something!

 

[HallsBalls]

In my opinion, every school thinks they are a BMW 7 Series and is charging max price at 50k+ per year for tuition and housing. In reality, there are only a handful of schools that should be charging that kind of tuition (Harvard, etc). You are paying for a product that will help you down the line. Yet, schools like Hofstra prices itself at the same rate as these elite colleges.

I don't mean to single out Hofstra...it was just the first local school other than the hall that popped into my mind. My mind was blown when I read the costs linked below.

http://www.hofstra.edu/Admission/adm_costofattendance.html

Toyota would be out of their mind to price a Corolla at $50k. Those in the market for that type of car would be priced out and others would rather buy a BMW. The difference here is no bank would finance a $50k car to a 17 year old making $8 per hour. Yet, that same 17 year can secure 4 years of school funding at 8% interest rates and a crap degree on the back end to show for it.

What's the solution to all of this? Who the hell knows....I'm a conservative so I usually vote to get the government out of everything in general. But it's only a matter of time before this all reaches a boiling point. Could you imagine a kid graduating college...goes into teaching and makes $45k per year. Owes $200k in loans and has to pay $1000 per month. How is that person ever supposed to pay rent? buy a car? save for a house? pay for a wedding? The debt just piles on.

 

[SPK145]

Those college loans are for less than 8% and are all now the purveyor of the fed government. Takes about 10 minutes to fill out a form and you get approved immediately, they check nothing. Anf for just about any amount.

 

[cernjSHU]

Those college loans are for less than 8% and are all now the purveyor of the fed government. Takes about 10 minutes to fill out a form and you get approved immediately, they check nothing. Anf for just about any amount.

And student loans are NOT Dischargeable in bankruptcy. Yes, those loans follow you around for life like herpes. Credit checks are done to see if you are a loan risk in which the lender could lose their money if the dead beat goes into bankruptcy. Student loans are a different animal.

 

[cernjSHU]

[/QUOTE]
8 ..I'm a conservative so I usually vote to get the government out of everything in general.[/QUOTE]

Riddle me this, if conservatives want the government out of their lives, why do conservatives have the government involved or criminalizing behavior such as Internet gambling, pro sport gambling, sodomy ( yes, still illegal in Georgia), gay marriage and or rights, Seems to me that conservatives like to pick and choose what they want the government involved in which usually centers around some sort of moral code.

Hypocrisy at its finest. Every Republican candidate prays to the alter of Sheldon Aldeson who owns the Venetian Casino in Vegas. Yet, almost all, except for Christie and maybe Trump, would be opposed to Internet gambling, or other states getting pro sports gambling. Yet, more hypocrisy. All Republican candidates were perfectly fine to have sites for fantasy football be legal. Somehow that ain't gambling especially when the owners of such sites happen to be Republican donors and owners of NFL foot teams like The cowboys and Patriots.

Hypocrisy comes full circle as the NFL and other pro sport leagues vehemently oppose sports gambling in NJ due to the undue corruption that may take place and for the integrity of the game. But, fantasy football would keep the integrity of the game intact. It's a laughable stance. It's all gambling and it all should be allowed.

 

[Merge]

College affordability is a problem and the government has certainly thrown some fuel on the fire by providing access to free money and lower interest loans. I read a study not too long ago that showed that every $1 received by pell grants or federal loans is eaten up by a $0.55 to $0.65 increase in tuition cots. Good intentions but flawed solutions.

Back to the original post and what Sanders is suggesting (treating educated citizens as an asset for our country), something we could consider is offer low interest loans for all students but force schools that receive federal funds to maintain low levels of tuition increases every year or be blocked from federal funding. Schools can be more creative about creating additional revenue if they want to admit students who obtain federal help.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Riddle me this, if conservatives want the government out of their lives, why do conservatives have the government involved or criminalizing behavior such as Internet gambling, pro sport gambling, sodomy ( yes, still illegal in Georgia), gay marriage and or rights, Seems to me that conservatives like to pick and choose what they want the government involved in which usually centers around some sort of moral code.

It's probably not worth going down this road again, but since you asked, most conservatives that I know who were against gay marriage (not "rights") objected to changing the definition of the word marriage, not to their right to cohabitate, have a civil union, and all the rights/benefits thereof. Obviously, you fell for the propaganda hook, line, and sinker, which programmed you to think that all who objected to the usurpation of the word marriage MUST hate gays, and be anti-human rights.

But that's how it goes: look anywhere on the internet, and all conservatives MUST be Republicans, and/or wealthy, older, white, Christian men.

"Ale man -- ale's the drink -- for those for whom it hurts to think..."

 

[donnie_baseball]

Back on point, the system is rife with abuse. When I was in medical school, you could get Federally-funded loans for 2 or 3 percent, and some of my classmates with wealthy parents took these loans out, and invested the money, while paying off their tuition as they went.

 

[Seton75]

It is a disgrace that so many people feel comfortable ripping off the govt, and we blame the govt and never blame the thieves of service and money. This is true of rich and poor an in between.

I always loved irony of the Fred Thompson commercial for reverse mortgages, and how he stressed that it is govt insured. Is that the same big bad govt so many want to get off their back?

 

[SPK145]

Back to the original post and what Sanders is suggesting (treating educated citizens as an asset for our country), something we could consider is offer low interest loans for all students but force schools that receive federal funds to maintain low levels of tuition increases every year or be blocked from federal funding. Schools can be more creative about creating additional revenue if they want to admit students who obtain federal help.

More government force is never the answer. What's next, forcing students to take only certain majors that are useful?

And college (like home ownership) isn't for everyone. That bubble will burst soon, if it hasn't already.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

I side with Bernie more so on this one obviously, but SPK is onto something with the phrase "college isn't for everyone". Every single kid is told in high school that he should be going to college as if learning a trade or working in a factory for a solid wage is it just as good or even better in some cases. I feel like those options are never pushed on kids and we can't all be going to college. There is absolutely nothing wrong with joining a union, working with your hands, and making a lot of money per hour plus overtime doing it. For example I love working In radio, but I would've made a hell of a lot more money as a steamfitter like my dad.

 

[Merge]

More government force is never the answer. What's next, forcing students to take only certain majors that are useful?

No.

I am not saying what I suggested is THE answer, just something that popped into my head.
As a culture we have decided that it is a worthwhile investment to help kids go to college. Moving forward from that fact, how do you prevent universities from abusing the increased buying power? I think forcing schools who are receiving the federal funding to maintain low tuition increases is not unreasonable. If you think there is a better way, I'm all ears.

And college (like home ownership) isn't for everyone.

Of course.
less than 80% of high school students graduate high school. Of high school graduates, about 65% go to college.
No one is suggesting it is for everyone, what people are suggesting is that college is for most people and is necessary to get a decent job (ignoring the bill gates of the world)... but having kids graduate with a mountain of debt at high interest rates is not good for our economy.

 

[HALL85]

We have a system where 15-20% of college graduates can't find a job, and we are outsourcing jobs to other countries since we are not encouraging nor teaching the trades here (manufacturing, tech support, etc.). So let's incentivize more H.S. kids to go to college, go into debt when the supply of those jobs is diminishing. Colleges have become like golf courses...too much capacity, too costly, but the difference is that government doesn't subsidize all golf courses or provide me with a low interest loan to join a private one.

Why on earth would you (us, the government) give a HS student a $200,000 loan from a poor family to go to a private school, who has a strong likliehood of never paying back the loan? There ARE other options today (state schools, community colleges) where you can get that 2 or 4 year degree without the same financial burden. Am I missing something here?

 

[Merge]

Have any of you have encouraged your children to stay away from college because there aren't enough jobs?
I sure as hell will not do that with my children, and I doubt that any of you have done that.

We all understand where we are today. There is a gigantic problem with student loan debt.
How do we fix it? I am all for encouraging community colleges and state schools but that will not address the current problem.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Merge, I would have no qualms encouraging my kid to learn how to be a carpenter, electrician, etc. Particularly if their grades aren't amazing, and/or they show an interest in working with their hands. Go to a trade school for 2 years, either work your way up in a union or don['t depending on your POV, and then come out making $35-40 plus overtime. Not bad at all.

 

[HALL85]

Have any of you have encouraged your children to stay away from college because there aren't enough jobs?
I sure as hell will not do that with my children, and I doubt that any of you have done that.

We all understand where we are today. There is a gigantic problem with student loan debt.
How do we fix it? I am all for encouraging community colleges and state schools but that will not address the current problem.

Not "stay away from college", but if my child chose to pursue a trade, why not? It's about being passionate about your work, and I would certainly support them if they wanted to pursue and alternative path. You're starting to sound like those conservative snobs you rail on about....

Why won't more inexpensive options (CC's and state schools) solve the problem? As long as there is capacity (supply) to meet the demand. What will happen is some of these overpriced/undervalued private universities that are being propped up by government loans will be forced to consolidate or retract.

 

[Merge]

I admit I have a bias here because I chose an alternate path years ago when I left SHU, went to a trade school and started working in tech. Ten years later I didn't like where my career was heading so I went back to SHU for accounting. There is a world of difference between having a degree and not.

College was always an option in my family. I am the first in my family to graduate on both my mother's and father's side of the family including two older siblings. I want a better life for my children than I had/have (of course) and knowing what my life was like before and after finishing my degree, I will absolutely encourage an education for my two girls. I won't force them to go or deny any alternative if they choose a different path.

 

[Merge]

You're starting to sound like those conservative snobs you rail on about....

Liberal snobs love education. I just want to indoctrinate them into the liberal cult of higher education.
See my post above. Of course I will encourage their passion, but my wife, who majored in art, will also make sure they understand that passion doesn't necessarily pay the bills.

Why won't more inexpensive options (CC's and state schools) solve the problem?

Because the current problem is the massive amount of debt currently held and those currently enrolled in college. Encouraging trade school will not change anything for the current problem. Cutting interest rates now would be an example of something that would help. Hillary's plan for capping payments to 10% of income is something that will help.

 

[HallsBalls]

The cost of college inflated because of the guaranteed free money offered via student loans from the govt. End of story. As well intended this might have been, the current situation has become a reality.

At least we can all agree on one thing...Beat Nova tomorrow!

PS - Let's make America great again ; )

 

[cernjSHU]

It's probably not worth going down this road again, but since you asked, most conservatives that I know who were against gay marriage (not "rights") objected to changing the definition of the word marriage, not to their right to cohabitate, have a civil union, and all the rights/benefits thereof. Obviously, you fell for the propaganda hook, line, and sinker, which programmed you to think that all who objected to the usurpation of the word marriage MUST hate gays, and be anti-human rights.

But that's how it goes: look anywhere on the internet, and all conservatives MUST be Republicans, and/or wealthy, older, white, Christian men.

"Ale man -- ale's the drink -- for those for whom it hurts to think..."

Personally I could care less what you call it union or marriage as long as all the rights are the same. However, this was not the case with civil unions. In some states, they did not confer all the rights as a marriage. Also, federal benefits such as social security, veterans, federal taxation were not the same.

And, what is the deal with the word marriage? Why is it magically the sole domain to religion? Hasn't marriage predated Judeo-Christian history? If agnostics, atheists, and even devil worshippers can marry because it is a man and woman, who gives a shit about the word marriage?

So, a God loving religious gay man cannot marry but the devil worshipper can. Yeah that makes sense. Yes, the conservatives go crazy because they fight so hard for semantics of the word marriage. Yeah ok!

 

[Seton75]

Marriage is sacred, which is why half of us are divorced...

 

[SPK145]

As a culture we have decided that it is a worthwhile investment to help kids go to college. Moving forward from that fact, how do you prevent universities from abusing the increased buying power? I think forcing schools who are receiving the federal funding to maintain low tuition increases is not unreasonable. If you think there is a better way, I'm all ears.

Government created this situation by wrongly creating an action without regards to the likely reaction (Fast-rising tuition, too many graduates in useless majors, etc.) Typical government stuff. Don't double down or continue poor policy, turn off the free/easy money spigot and force colleges to keep their prices in line with the market and the real cost of providing education, not fancy new building/athletic centers, and bloated administrations.

As for those already ensnared in this web, as you mention, not much can or should be done about it (and I'm in that boat with my son who attends a college that costs in the high-50's). It takes two to tango, you have choices, you entered into an arms-length transaction, you have to live with the consequences of your actions.

It sucks but government stupidity is as government stupidity does......
- President Forrest Gump, (Libertarian-Alabama)

 

[Merge]

turn off the free/easy money spigot and force colleges to keep their prices in line with the market and the real cost of providing education, not fancy new building/athletic centers, and bloated administrations.

But you know that is politically impossible and really not an option.

So going forward from that, is there anything we can do to help with the massive amount of debt and the increasing costs of tuition?
Or should we just not do anything and let the bubble burst to correct itself?

 

[HALL85]

But you know that is politically impossible and really not an option.

So going forward from that, is there anything we can do to help with the massive amount of debt and the increasing costs of tuition?
Or should we just not do anything and let the bubble burst to correct itself?

Saying it's politically impossible is essentially just saying I give up. That's not acceptable. It is possible. It just takes leadership. Have things gotten that pathetic?

As I've said before, there are various forms of less expensive options. It doesn't matter what the interest-rate is if someone will be unable to make the payments.

 

[HallsBalls]

Hall85 hit the nail on the head.