Changes with Medical School

[seton1996]

not sure what to make, seems kind of weird to make this change now.

Seton Hall University will provide academic support but Hackensack Meridian Health is paying to run the new private medical school.

http://www.nj.com/healthfit/index.s..._no_longer_financial_partner_with_hacken.html

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

It sounds weird. Is it still ours or are we being cut out or eventually cut out? Will Seton Hall still see a benefit to the university? Not sure I like this new setup.

 

[pokeyshu]

For now we have no financial liability it sounds like. But, will provide academic support. Hopefully we get to keep our name on it.

 

[TrueBlue1989]

Best of all worlds. Inter professional school with nursing and graduate medical programs. SHU will now offer high school students a BS:MD degree and up to 25% of the school will be SHU graduates. SHU is not on the hook for any medical school losses.

 

[Pirate64]

This seems OK to me. Our name is still on the door. We are the academic arm.

 

[shu99]

Best of all worlds. Inter professional school with nursing and graduate medical programs. SHU will now offer high school students a BS:MD degree and up to 25% of the school will be SHU graduates. SHU is not on the hook for any medical school losses.

This.

Seems like the brass rethought the amount of money that it would take to run an elite med school and decided that it didnt make sense financially. So for now we get to keep our name associated with the school without any of the financial risk.

 

[el pirata]

The only thing I can't quite wrap my head around is this line:

"Eventually, the school will be administered solely by Hackensack Meridian Health after a defined transition process," Meehan wrote.

So does the administration at this point remain joint despite the change in financial backing?

 

[The SHUttle]

It means our name is coming off that at some point - probably soon.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

Best of all worlds. Inter professional school with nursing and graduate medical programs. SHU will now offer high school students a BS:MD degree and up to 25% of the school will be SHU graduates. SHU is not on the hook for any medical school losses.

And it sounds like, eventually, none of the benefits that go along with having a medical school attached to your university either. Sounds like we're being cut out and that the only benefit we get is 25% of the seats are reserved for Seton Hall graduates. To me this is quite disappointing and not quite the dream Dr. Esteban had envisioned. Will the graduates of the medical school be considered Seton Hall alumni? Will we still retain the College of Nursing and the School of Health and Medical Sciences or will that all eventually be turned over to Hackensack as well?

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

It means our name is coming off that at some point - probably soon.

Which is a horrible development!

 

[SHUSource]

I don't know enough about it to say too much, but this always seemed like an overextention of our resources.

 

[seton1996]

It means our name is coming off that at some point - probably soon.

That is my thought, based on this I would think over the next few years we will slowly become disassociated with the school.

 

[Rimas]

Our name isn't coming off anytime soon. They have no academic accreditation. Relax! Deal went south financially for us...much more expensive than proposed. They get our academic accreditation, they finance it, and are liable. We keep the name on it. Good deal for us.

 

[shu99]

Our name isn't coming off anytime soon. They have no academic accreditation. Relax! Deal went south financially for us...much more expensive than proposed. They get our academic accreditation, they finance it, and are liable. We keep the name on it. Good deal for us.

Yeah I think it will be at least 5+ years before they (Hackensack) can branch off solo and remove the affiliation with SHU. Dr. Esteban's dream of a med school turned out to be more of a nightmore with the amount of money that it was/is going to take to open/grow the med school. I wouldn't call it us being cut out so much as it was our choice to rework the deal, asking to be let out. Nursing and School of Health and Med Sciences will remain part of SHU, just leasing space at that site.

 

[ArtieLange9]

Yeah I think it will be at least 5+ years before they (Hackensack) can branch off solo and remove the affiliation with SHU. Dr. Esteban's dream of a med school turned out to be more of a nightmore with the amount of money that it was/is going to take to open/grow the med school. I wouldn't call it us being cut out so much as it was our choice to rework the deal, asking to be let out. Nursing and School of Health and Med Sciences will remain part of SHU, just leasing space at that site.

Think small at SHU....

 

[shu99]

Think small at SHU....

What is thinking small? Not sinking 10's of millions of dollars (at least) into a project that realistically will never turn a profit? The discussed size of the student population (50 to start then ramping up to an incoming class size of about 125), and the amount of discounting/scholarship dollars that will be needed to land those students (there isn't a final accreditation so no student is going to risk coming while also paying full price), makes it so that the school will probably operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. Dr. Esteban did many great things while at SHU, getting the University involved in the creation of a new med school (and then bailing and not having to deal with any of the issues involved in actually setting up the school), would not be near the top of his highlight reel.

 

[ArtieLange9]

What is thinking small? Not sinking 10's of millions of dollars (at least) into a project that realistically will never turn a profit? The discussed size of the student population (50 to start then ramping up to an incoming class size of about 125), and the amount of discounting/scholarship dollars that will be needed to land those students (there isn't a final accreditation so no student is going to risk coming while also paying full price), makes it so that the school will probably operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. Dr. Esteban did many great things while at SHU, getting the University involved in the creation of a new med school (and then bailing and not having to deal with any of the issues involved in actually setting up the school), would not be near the top of his highlight reel.

You either go big or go home. Why even get this started if you are not prepared to financially back it. It sounds like most things Seton Hall is involved with, we have a great idea and then we find out the price tag. At the end of the day, it's embarrassing to get this point and pull out due to $ concerns.

Academics and Athletics, SHU will only look to go so far. Don't say you want to be elite if you don't want to spend the money it costs to be elite.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

You either go big or go home. Why even get this started if you are not prepared to financially back it. It sounds like most things Seton Hall is involved with, we have a great idea and then we find out the price tag. At the end of the day, it's embarrassing to get this point and pull out due to $ concerns.

Academics and Athletics, SHU will only look to go so far. Don't say you want to be elite if you don't want to spend the money it costs to be elite.

Exactly! Penny wise and pound foolish! This is also why we have virtually no land either, why work hard to keep what you have when you can just sell it off! No forward thinking! Something tells me DePaul will be able to make it work while we sit around imagining what might have been.

 

[hallgrad80]

In order for this medical school initiative to work out SH was counting on substantial contributions from various educational and other charitable foundations , corporate grants and both state and federal funding none of which ever materialized in the amounts needed. They say history repeats itself and it was the same lack of outside funding that doomed our first attempt at running a medical school.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

In order for this medical school initiative to work out SH was counting on substantial contributions from various educational and other charitable foundations , corporate grants and both state and federal funding none of which ever materialized in the amounts needed. They say history repeats itself and it was the same lack of outside funding that doomed our first attempt at running a medical school.

Which goes back to our gross lack of fundraising people who know how to sell ice to Eskimos and get blood from a stone. Just incredibly short sighted and a huge opportunity lost.

 

[hallgrad80]

There is a positive side to this decision. It did come early enough for SH to recognize that it did not have the resources to support its part of the joint venture and not to find itself in serious financial straits because of the drain the medical school would have. The other positive that I hope comes out of it is that the search committee for finding our new president recognizes that being a fund raiser is a top priority that we must have in whoever we hire. Universities today can’t prosper and grow without outside funding and having a leader with those skills has become a must especially for private universities.

 

[shu99]

Exactly! Penny wise and pound foolish! This is also why we have virtually no land either, why work hard to keep what you have when you can just sell it off! No forward thinking! Something tells me DePaul will be able to make it work while we sit around imagining what might have been.

Depaul will make what work? Are they in the process of setting up a Med School? If so I would expect them to have the same financial issues that SHU was facing. You dont think it's forward thinking to say hey this project will lose 10M a year for the next 20 years, lets get out from that financial risk now? Is it ideal to get started and then leave the project? No, of course it isnt. But Id rather get out of the numbers dont make sense than be locked into a deal that costs 10M+ with no real chance of recouping those funds int he foreseeable future (if ever).

 

[Bobbie Solo]

What is thinking small? Not sinking 10's of millions of dollars (at least) into a project that realistically will never turn a profit? The discussed size of the student population (50 to start then ramping up to an incoming class size of about 125), and the amount of discounting/scholarship dollars that will be needed to land those students (there isn't a final accreditation so no student is going to risk coming while also paying full price), makes it so that the school will probably operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. Dr. Esteban did many great things while at SHU, getting the University involved in the creation of a new med school (and then bailing and not having to deal with any of the issues involved in actually setting up the school), would not be near the top of his highlight reel.

@shu99 knows more about this and other inner workings at SHU outside of b-ball better than most anyone. Take heed of his rare opining on here.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

Depaul will make what work? Are they in the process of setting up a Med School? If so I would expect them to have the same financial issues that SHU was facing. You dont think it's forward thinking to say hey this project will lose 10M a year for the next 20 years, lets get out from that financial risk now? Is it ideal to get started and then leave the project? No, of course it isnt. But Id rather get out of the numbers dont make sense than be locked into a deal that costs 10M+ with no real chance of recouping those funds int he foreseeable future (if ever).

Some here posted the other day that Dr. Esteban wanted a medical school for DePaul. Not sure who posted it though.

 

[SHUSource]

You either go big or go home. Why even get this started if you are not prepared to financially back it. It sounds like most things Seton Hall is involved with, we have a great idea and then we find out the price tag. At the end of the day, it's embarrassing to get this point and pull out due to $ concerns.

Academics and Athletics, SHU will only look to go so far. Don't say you want to be elite if you don't want to spend the money it costs to be elite.

We don't need a medical school to be elite. In fact, having one always seemed to be at odds with our strengths and realities.

Princeton doesn't have a medical school, but they have managed to remain a fairly reputable institution. Williams, Carnegie Mellon, and William & Mary don't, either (nor, I don't think, does Boston College), and it's almost beyond fantasy to compare Seton Hall with any of those in terms of "elite."

If it doesn't align with our brand or identity, why throw money after it?

 

[ArtieLange9]

We don't need a medical school to be elite. In fact, having one always seemed to be at odds with our strengths and realities.

Princeton doesn't have a medical school, but they have managed to remain a fairly reputable institution. Williams, Carnegie Mellon, and William & Mary don't, either (nor, I don't think, does Boston College), and it's almost beyond fantasy to compare Seton Hall with any of those in terms of "elite."

If it doesn't align with our brand or identity, why throw money after it?

Then why get involved in the first place?

It just appears to be like most things we do, we want something but don't want to pay the price tag that comes along.

 

[Seton75]

Maybe the price tag shot way up after we got involved. Maybe it was foolish for us to ever think we could take on the added expense. It is easy to blame poor management for this turn. But maybe it is the smart decision. I have no clue. None of us do..

 

[shu99]

Then why get involved in the first place?

It just appears to be like most things we do, we want something but don't want to pay the price tag that comes along.

So you want the university to be affiliated with a med school regardless of the cost of running it? We should stay involved simply because we started a process? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. And in reality, I am not sure that hackensack ever branches out on their own in terms of accreditation etc. as they are just not in the education business.

 

[Pirate64]

What is thinking small? Not sinking 10's of millions of dollars (at least) into a project that realistically will never turn a profit? The discussed size of the student population (50 to start then ramping up to an incoming class size of about 125), and the amount of discounting/scholarship dollars that will be needed to land those students (there isn't a final accreditation so no student is going to risk coming while also paying full price), makes it so that the school will probably operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. Dr. Esteban did many great things while at SHU, getting the University involved in the creation of a new med school (and then bailing and not having to deal with any of the issues involved in actually setting up the school), would not be near the top of his highlight reel.

Hear, hear It's so damn easy for guys to bitch about the University's actions when spending is involved.
I have yet to hear one idea on how to raise the extra millions to say "WE THINK BIG AT SETON HALL"
Bring it on all you sharpshooters -and while your at it send in a lot more money.

 

[SHUSource]

Then why get involved in the first place?

It just appears to be like most things we do, we want something but don't want to pay the price tag that comes along.

I don't know; I wasn't part of the discussions that went into it. Maybe someone wanted to set an ambitious agenda to promote his own career? I'm not necessarily calling out Dr. Esteban, but that is something people in his position do...

Again, the mechanics of operating a medical school are beyond my field of expertise, but I know we don't need one to improve.

 

[cernjSHU]

I don’t like the name change at all. Without the school there’s is no medical school for HACKENSACK. Bad bargaining. Name should have stayed the same and have the hospital fit the bill which is only a huge benefit for the hospital anyway.

 

[Piratefan2009]

If they lose the med school that's a huge blow after all the fanfare. People on here complaining about the poor giving rate should think about this: Medical Schools produce Doctors. Doctors make lots of money. People with lots of money are in the best position to give back.

Law schools have a similar function if they are good.

That's one big benny of having a med school. Often you get top notch research prestige and a nice new donor base, and a leg in a field that won't slow down for another 30 years with the aging of boomers (and an echo after that).

I definitely remember reading ed research on the types of majors a school graduates and giving rates/amounts. Obviously prestigious business schools are great, as are STEM schools. At this point they should do all they can to keep some level of affiliation in perpetuity (and cough up enough cash to do so). The name order reversal is not a death blow, but they should work their ass off now to secure their title on that building.

Making any comparison between us and Princeton is ludicrous. No one in the field makes comparisons like that. You look at your own profile schools and the profile above your own (which sure as hell isn't the IVY league).

Some examples to aspire to:

U of Denver (Endowment three times ours now)
Drexel
SLU

All ahead of us in the rankings and have carved out their niches.

 

[hallgrad80]

Then why get involved in the first place?

It just appears to be like most things we do, we want something but don't want to pay the price tag that comes along.

It’s business 101 that you never start up any venture whether it be a for profit business or a medical school until you fully understand the financial demands that you will be required to meet from the initial start up costs to the continued underwriting of all losses, especially if the venture will likely never generate enough revenues to cover expenses. It’s also business 101 that once you realistically understand what the financial demands are going to be you have to make sure that you have the resources to meet those demands.

It appears to me that SH did not fully appreciate what the extent of the financial demands were going to be and that their plan on how to meet those demands was seriously flawed.

 

[SHUSource]

If they lose the med school that's a huge blow after all the fanfare. People on here complaining about the poor giving rate should think about this: Medical Schools produce Doctors. Doctors make lots of money. People with lots of money are in the best position to give back.

Law schools have a similar function if they are good.

That's one big benny of having a med school. Often you get top notch research prestige and a nice new donor base, and a leg in a field that won't slow down for another 30 years with the aging of boomers (and an echo after that).

I definitely remember reading ed research on the types of majors a school graduates and giving rates/amounts. Obviously prestigious business schools are great, as are STEM schools. At this point they should do all they can to keep some level of affiliation in perpetuity (and cough up enough cash to do so). The name order reversal is not a death blow, but they should work their ass off now to secure their title on that building.

Making any comparison between us and Princeton is ludicrous. No one in the field makes comparisons like that. You look at your own profile schools and the profile above your own (which sure as hell isn't the IVY league).

Some examples to aspire to:

U of Denver (Endowment three times ours now)
Drexel
SLU

All ahead of us in the rankings and have carved out their niches.

I'm obviously not comparing Seton Hall to Princeton. I invoked Princeton as an example of a school that hardly loses prestige for not having a medical school. I also mentioned a number of other institutions of all kinds that do just fine in terms of prestige -- as well as endowment -- for not having associated med schools.

Williams -- the quintessential liberal arts college that wouldn't entertain the thought of a med school for a hot minute -- is sitting on $2.6 billion. The others I mentioned (BC, $2.4 billion), William & Mary ($900 million), and Carnegie Mellon ($1.72 billion) all do fine without misdirecting their gaze.

Those school you list are all fine schools (though U of D doesn't have a medical school), and their endowments are all well ahead of ours (SLU, $1.02 billion; Drexel, $722 million; Denver, $711 million). Can we reach them? Perhaps, but if you see opening a medical school as a means of developing future donors (not sure the philanthropic literature agrees with that), it's also going to require a massive outlay, something I'm not sure we have, sitting here at $243 million.

Once more, I'm far from an expert in the nuts and bolts of medical schools, but I do understand institutional identity and higher-ed philanthropy, and I'm not sure that a medical school is a great fit for Seton Hall, other than to have a shiny new toy. I can be persuaded, but I haven't been here.

 

[SHUisNJsTeam]

Hear, hear It's so damn easy for guys to bitch about the University's actions when spending is involved.
I have yet to hear one idea on how to raise the extra millions to say "WE THINK BIG AT SETON HALL"
Bring it on all you sharpshooters -and while your at it send in a lot more money.

Because sadly there are people like you who are happy with status quo. Sitting on your hands doing nothing, your job is done! It takes hard work and a desire to change things. Look at what other schools do. Sitting back saying it can't be done with no desire to change things will leave them the way they are now. Hopefully our next President makes plans and not excuses and puts people in place who aren't afraid of hard work and success, unlike some here!

 

[catholicman]

Forming a partnership with a secular entity immersed in the culture of death wasn't a great idea to begin with. Perhaps Mother Seton intervened to save our instutional soul.

 

[shu99]

Because sadly there are people like you who are happy with status quo. Sitting on your hands doing nothing, your job is done! It takes hard work and a desire to change things. Look at what other schools do. Sitting back saying it can't be done without no desire to change things will leave them the way they are now. Hopefully or next President makes plans and not excuses and puts people in place who aren't afraid of hard work and success, unlike some here!

You are 100% right in saying that it takes hard work and a desire to change to actually change things. But if from a financial perspective, a venture doesn't make any sense at all, why be in a rush to change the status quo? Should the University be in a rush to spend tens of millions of dollars just to give people the perception that they are working hard?

 

[Pirate6711]

Forming a partnership with a secular entity immersed in the culture of death wasn't a great idea to begin with. Perhaps Mother Seton intervened to save our instutional soul.

A hospital is a culture of death?

 

[Pirate64]

Because sadly there are people like you who are happy with status quo. Sitting on your hands doing nothing, your job is done! It takes hard work and a desire to change things. Look at what other schools do. Sitting back saying it can't be done without no desire to change things will leave them the way they are now. Hopefully or next President makes plans and not excuses and puts people in place who aren't afraid of hard work and success, unlike some here!

Hey pal. 53 years of annual giving . I mentor 9 undergrads and have served on Two SHU Boards. I spend 2 full days a month at the University with my mentees.

And you do what?

There is no lack of hard work and desire for success in the Advancement Office now.

But tell me your specific plans and concrete ideas on how to bring in more money and I'll pass them along.

And also be specific about what "other schools do" Maybe we can steal a page from their playbook.

You should also visit the campus and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[TrueBlue1989]

Like most dreams, Gabe’s was not affordable. This outcome is a homerun for SHU. We get virtually all the benefits including up to 25% of the students will be Pirates.