we keep hearing about high upside and but how low is the floor on these guys that we couldn’t dominate 0-8 Monmouth or 1 win NJIT?
Checkmate
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
- Start date
Truly do not think it’s the players’ fault and feel even more strongly about that after today. I look at our guys out there and do not believe they’re as bad as the score says they are. Something else stinks and I think it’s finally coming to light.
The other thing is this has become standard operating procedure for basically every school
Maryland complains about nil
Rutgers
Miami!
Michigan has complained about Ohio states nil all year
Etc
Etc
Etc
I know we are SO bad, I get it but it’s just what coaches and schools do now
Coach nuked any chance these players had of succeeding this season. Had a couple of really good players last year that masked his ineptitude. Adapt or die. That has to be Shaheen’s new motto.
Not really sure of that. Dribbling, passing and shooting are all suspect. I think in today’s game athleticism is overvalued and those 3 skills are undervalued. People act like oh they’re super athletic we will just teach them those skills. That’s great if you have 3 years not 3 months. We’ve watched guys who possess those skills but don’t have the height or natural athleticism that our guys have and they’ve torched us with basketball skills.
No system and forcing them to wait for you to read a defense while the shot clock winds down will do that. He doesn’t want robots yet he turns them into robots. So yea, dribbling, passing, and shooting aren’t helped by whatever the hell Sha wants them to do on offense.
Defensively, we invite these less athletic teams to torch us because for a guy who preaches defense, we give up an awful lot of open looks. Trying to grind teams into submission only works if we can put the ball in the basket. Bet we could if Sha had an idea of what we’re supposed to do when we have the ball. For a great point guard, I’m genuinely confused how he doesn’t understand how to coach that side of the ball.
When does Holloway's seat start to get hot? We are in the midst of year three and he has been an abject failure with zero reason to believe things will improve next season.
When was the last time SHU basketball was this bleak? At the end of the Gonzo era? Even then, outside of his first season here, none of his teams were this poor.
When was the last time SHU basketball was this bleak? At the end of the Gonzo era? Even then, outside of his first season here, none of his teams were this poor.
Too bad you remembered. Your day would have been better if you hadn’t remembered.
I don’t want to be so doom or gloom, but yes I firmly believe that is the new norm for us unless the rules dramatically change.
It’s depressing, it sucks, and it makes me lose a lot of hope in the remainder of the season and what’s to come.
One alternative idea is to completely take all under the radar kids (will have to be mid major and below). Find kids who play the game the right way, share the ball, move without the ball, make free throws, and come from a winning culture.
Then we can evaluate how Sha coaches,
because the system and the greater whole will have to be better than the sum of the individual parts.
It possibly could work, should be good enough to beat the Monmouths and Fordhams of the world. However, when we get to BE play and have those inferior athletes go up against a similarly well coached team by Greg McDermott or Danny Hurley, do we even stand a chance?
Remember a good non-conference is only one piece of the puzzle to make the dance. If you can’t compete during BE play, it doesn’t matter if you go 9-2 in the OOC and beat the cupcakes you’re supposed to.
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I agree , this is exactly what the roster feels like. He was hoping to have more depth than last year and was also gambling that some guys make a big jump to become his alphas.
But you said instead of the type of roster he had last year.
He had four players with 4 years of high D1 experience, plus rolled the dice on Bediako and it was a winner. Richmond, Dawes, and Davis had no idea that weeks into the season the transfer eligibility would change. Otherwise they would have all most likely left for larger pay days last year.
We all would settle for the make up of last year’s roster vs this approach, but I don’t think he has the NIL funds to put together that kind of a roster.
I ask anyone in the know, the following. If everyone had another year of eligibility from last year’s team, what would have been the total cost to bring that exact team back this year and is that anywhere close to the budget we did have/spend?
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Just curious as to who is playing worse?
Wusu, feel like we know exactly what we have in Dylan. His skills haven’t gotten better or worse. Same effort on D, same mediocre ability to shoot the 3, does some dirty work on the glass and with steals. but yes it appears he is playing worse because Sha is asking him to play PG. This one is on Sha IMO. But Dylan is still fundamentally the same player he was last year and you saw that the last two games as Dual has played a lot more PG and Dylan moved back off the ball.
Coleman was injured and has been adapting to playing an Alpha role, but is he playing worse than last year? I don’t think so.
Jenkins has been a bright spot, so I would say not him.
Middleton last year average…
15 mpg and 4.4 ppg last year.
He isn’t shooting the three as well, but has started to pick up his overall game. Which kind of happens when you are a sophomore. So would not say him.
Dual last year…
18 mpg / 3.3 ppg / 40% 2-FG /25% 3 Pt
Shows athletic flashes that got him invited to the draft combine.
- Seems exactly what we have so far this year.
Toumi last year…
25 mpg / 10.6 ppg / 6.1 rpg /25% 3 pt /55% FT
- probably a fair example of a guy who might not be playing better than last year. But remember he comes from Evansville who went 7-33 in conference play while was there. So he was a contributing player on a bad mid major team. His FTs aren’t a shocker. I was concerned he would struggle with the physicality of bigger P4 schools. Today was a great example. Immediate foul trouble all day long.
Aligbe last 2 years averaged..
5.3 ppg / 40% FG / 22% 3 Pt / 3.8 rpg
Also his numbers declined as a sophomore
- I wasn’t excited about this pickup when first announced, and he is proving to be the same guy he was at BC when he was a role player off the bench for them. So not playing worse, just who he is. Probably not good enough to be a high D1 starting PF. best suited as a role player off the bench.
Okorofor last year…
1 ppg / 2.2 rpg / 55% FT
- he is exactly who he was last year.
Not sure why people were expecting so much more. Oh that’s right… Bediako did it, so that should be the norm or Sha can’t coach.
Tubek played 83 minutes last year. Feel like he has been better.
Yalden didn’t play. Nothing to compare his current performance to.
Godswill was supposed to be super raw out of HS. Most frosh seem lost, specifically on D. Everyone I talk to has been pleasantly surprised as to what they have seen from him. But that can’t be coaching that has helped him do that. Most likely not.
If you want to paint this picture that it is all “coaching” then please point out specific examples of which guys are doing worse compared to how they performed last year.
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The killers have been the experienced players. Toumi and Addae-Wusu are 5th year players and have been terrible. Aligbe a Junior and just a mess. Let them leave and transfer mid year if they want they’re clogging the minutes.
Jenkins is also a 5th year guy. I wouldn’t put him in their class and he would benefit from playing with the younger players, but he’s really struggled lately.
Jenkins is also a 5th year guy. I wouldn’t put him in their class and he would benefit from playing with the younger players, but he’s really struggled lately.
Those schools you mentioned are crying with 2 loaves of bread under their arms !!!
My point is almost every school/coach in d-1 complains about NIL
Cal complained about NIL at Kentucky and pointed to it as a reason he went to Arkansas..it’s just the new thing everyone does
Agree . I was down in Charleston for the games and the Vandy and VCU fans were also complaining . The one team that was not were the Drake fans and they are 8- 0 !!!!!
I'm curious of this as well - was the NIL money spread out over depth players? If so, wouldn't it be prudent to try to (say) use NIL for 3-4 really good players and have the rest be "take a chance" types?
I think the 10 deep concept could work pre-NIL, but in the NIL era it's clearly not working. As others have said, we're not the only team in that situation, but we are struggling and it's hard to watch.
Thank goodness for Leftcoast Pirates trying to curb the negativity about Sha's coaching and recruiting. It's all about the lack of NIL funds and having to take gambles to compete in the Big East against Teams which dwarf our NIL budget. Sha took a St. Peters Team to the final 8 but somehow has forgotten how to coach college basketball. Really? When things go wrong with our Team, the negative posters come out of the woodwork and spew doom and gloom nonsense. They are not going to be happy until Sha leaves for a program with a decent NIL budget.
I think nutterforthree's point that nearly everyone is playing "worse" than last year is a bit hyperbolic, as you point out with each player, but why have nearly all players not taken any significant progress forward? Is there often not an "expected" jump between freshman and sophomore years, for example?
There were many who were excited when Middleton and Dual committed, but has Coach Sha really gotten anything more out of them than did Chris Holtman or Kim English?
Aligbe was the first commitment from Coach Sha in the off-season, for which I was intrigued. He's a junior now and does not look like he's taken any step forward at all. If you aren't going forward, you're going backward.
Toumi, a late commitment, was also viewed as someone who would contribute immediately in the front court, having averaged over ten points, six rebounds, the last two years. He even shot 54% from the field last year. This year, 5.7/3.5 in 20+ minutes per game.
And maybe Wusu doesn't look better or worse but, as you even point out, maybe he's not being put in a position to be most successful.
Keep in mind that all of this is against a strength of schedule thus far which KenPom currently ranks as 269th. One would expect better numbers now, with a regression to the mean later once conference play starts.
Believe me, I'm far from a negative poster (and do believe that the team will get better). But I think it is at least fair to ask 10 games in whether this team is being put in the best position to be successful.
Yep that’s it. We lost to Hofstra and Monmouth because their NIL was so much bigger than ours. Nothing but blue blinders from the geezers here
There is an angle I'm not sure many are focusing on, and that is the NIL is the demotivating factor. If these kids - who in the past weren't paid anything - are getting even $100 - $250K, is there much motivation to get better? Do they put in the effort knowing they can "get the bag" just being a player?
I'm not saying that is the case, but the opportunity to play in the NBA and get paid is a real motivating factor for improvement. Just look at Rhoden's improvement and he's working hard to land a spot.
Just a thought...
Leftcoast Pirates detested Willard so of course he will support Sha to the bitter end. Otherwise he’d have to walk away with egg on his face.
Well, if you are not a deep thinker and constantly err on the side of being overly simplistic, particularly when it suits your abject negative postings on this Board, then I agree with you.
lol. Detest is a very strong word.
I feel like Willard as Tom always says “left money on the table”, but was glorified for getting us to NCAA tournament consistency.
But Willard had gaps in recruiting depth at PG, issues with consistency running well organized offense, had his issues with the media when the team was struggling, and had internal player motivation issues that led to many players only meetings and the annual swoon. Many similar things that are we are seeing Sha.
I think many agree, Willard had rosters that over achieved and some really talented rosters that under achieved.
I didn’t want Willard run out of town. I just wanted a coach that wanted to be here. I wanted a coach who wasn’t getting complacent and constantly striving to reach the pinnacle of success. And I wanted a coach who didn’t always have one foot out the door looking for his next job.
Sha wants to be here. He wants to win so bad. He loves the university and all it stands for. His agent might leverage other schools to improve his clients salary. But deep down I think Sha has no intention to EVER go anywhere if he can be successful at Seton Hall. That isn’t easy to find in a head coach these days. I think we the fans, the school, the media, all have to support him in order to help him adjust in a totally new landscape of college basketball.
If he refuses to adjust and the whole Seton Hall athletic department approach refuses to adapt to this new age of NIL / transfer rules, then everyone needs to take a long look in the mirror.
I think there is an expected jump if the same coach has had time to work with that player over that same time period.
Sha had Kadary, Dawes, and Dre Davis for two years and the improvement in all three was significant from year 1 to year 2.
All these players we are referencing now, Sha has had since the summer time to work with them. I don’t think that is an apples to apples comparison.
This is also why he is always saying they will get better by the end of the year. Because he believes he can coach them up. Unfortunately there might not be a year two under his coaching guidance to see that immense jump we saw from the players last year. Just not how the system works anymore.
Abject failure, LOL? This year: yes. Overall: no.
Let's see how this season turns out (looking really bleak.) This time next year if it's similar, then the seat should get warm/hot.
getting shu to tourney consistently is a very good job.
i am the guy who coined "the great shaheen". he is far from blameless. i hate a lot of what he is doing. imo the offense is putrid and our style of plays is leading to dreadful results and boring the shit out of me. and the d is over rated.
it is early. most of the team is new.
we got taken apart by a team with 10 new players.
i remain hopeful that the level of play improves.
i am the guy who coined "the great shaheen". he is far from blameless. i hate a lot of what he is doing. imo the offense is putrid and our style of plays is leading to dreadful results and boring the shit out of me. and the d is over rated.
it is early. most of the team is new.
we got taken apart by a team with 10 new players.
i remain hopeful that the level of play improves.
This is well said and agree wholeheartedly on all of these points.
Let’s bucket players into these groupings
Exceeded - Godswill, Tubek, Chaunce (until recent swoon)
Met - Coleman, Felton (bizarre usage),
Underperformed - Middleton (rising though), Dual (same trending up), Wusu, Yalden
Disaster - Aligbe, Toumi, Harmon, Okorafor
This isn’t an abnormal hit/whiff rate. I think the issue lies more in Sha’s player evaluation and roster construction than it does on the staff’s player development
the players being terrible is what nuked it. they were never going to succeed. maybe coleman. the rest are just bad
In my opinion Sha could not handle working in another power conference job. Let’s say he got the Louisville job you think he would be able to get away with not allowing the media to see the team practice, not holding any interviews over the summer, no open practice for fans, plus he probably wouldn’t be a fan of going to a bunch of fundraiser events. That’s not his personality Seton Hall is the perfect place for him.
We're 9 months from a 25 win season. Stop. Who would you replace him with? The same chorus of those who wanted KW gone for 10 years are now having their day. Please tell me who could do better with the same resources, and let's hire him.
To be fair, and it doesn't change your points, DAW is at 38% 3PFG, which is a return to his sophomore and junior years at SJU, and better than his putrid 29% with us last year -- and he finished the season hot.
this. willard had a horrid first half of his tenure. he had horrible run the ball out offenses, couldn't recruit a pg, and was maddening with the media. he also had countless strange occurrences with his players. its exactly what they're complaining about with sha. Sha is having a really bad year but already doing the same/better than willard in this timeframe during a much much harder time period (disregard all the brainless people that don't understand why NIL actually matters, and the transfer rule).
this years roster construction is on him. but i also think hes not getting any support whatsoever from the people above him. he wants to be here and make all this BS work. its a doomed effort but he wants to do it. people can whine and complain but this is probably the best it gets under the current ncaa landscape. there will be many swing and misses in attempt to hit a home run.
Ha you must have me mixed up with someone else. I was a very big fan of Willard.
That said, I am not writing Sha off. He deserves a few lives. But what we’re watching ain’t it. Saying this is the best we can do is a loser’s mentality. He’s making a lot of money and it’s a big boy’s job. Time to adapt and figure it out. Year 3 and we’ve gone backwards by country miles.
There is also an expected jump based on pedigree and the kids themselves. It took Kadary 4 years to be an all league player. Part of that was his own maturation and development, irrespective of the coach. And part was Sha. I think it’s most always this way. You expect a top 50 kid like Kadary to develop if he’s in school at age 23 no matter who is doing the developing.
Yea we are at least a season away from him being on any proverbial “hot seat” and that may be too soon.
Bingo, all about the age old human condition of not wanting to admit you were wrong. Leftcoast ran Willard out of town (which I agreed with) and fully embraced Holloway. He'll come around eventually, but it might take years of awful play rather than seeing what most can see right now. I thought Holloway was a good hire at the time but that has turned out not to be the case.
