Best car buying advise ever
I happened to click the link for this board by mistake, but I'm glad I did.
First, ignore the pricing on those websites. They're great for helping you make a decision on the what to buy, but lousy for the how much it should cost. Once you've made your decision on make/model, I highly recommend going to FightingChance.com. I stumbled across this site a few years ago, while thoroughly researching (I'm a consumer nerd) information for a new car purchase for my parents. The site looks crappy (still does), but I began to read. I was intrigued and paid $40 for the package. The information provided is brilliant. For $40, you get terrific information about the auto-sales industry, your chosen car, true costs, and a genius negotiation plan.
I have now used this service/method 4 times myself and have made 4 new car purchases at below invoice. Once for myself, twice for my parents, and once for my once for my brother. I have turned friends and family on to Fighting Chance and have yet to have one unhappy result.
In July, I got (my wife) a 2012 Honda CRV EX (invoice 25.1) for 24.5 with free oil changes for life ($150 to $200 a year), free wheel locks, free extended warranty (1 year), free key replacement for life ($150 a key), and free VIN etching ($150 - 200 dealer prices), and extension of the 90 day free ding/scratch repair to 180 days. That's for a popular vehicle. I reached out to 10 dealerships for my bidding process and by the second day I had 7 offers at or below invoice after the FIRST round of negotiation. All done by phone and email (the site speaks of a fax/email process, but who really doesn't have 24/7 email access these days?) - nothing in person until it's time to buy and drive it home. My uncle just got a Mercedes at $3,500 below invoice using fightingchance.
BTW, never pay the dealer price for for VIN etching. There is a $25 DIY kit which you can order online and is really easy to use. I've used it and you'll get the insurance discount minus the bogus dealership mark up. Again, I'm a consumer nerd.
It is really, really easy to do. I have only had one dealership decline to participate in my bidding process in 4 purchases. Most of them appreciate the direct nature of the process, because they know you're not a tire kicker. Follow the instructions though. They're clear on that. I'm 4 for 4 in doing so.
Disclosure: I am in no way affiliated with this site, although I wish I was. I am just a consumer nerd that found something awesome and I want others to know about it.
Front Page of the site copied and pasted below
_________________
A personal message from founder and hands-on manager James Bragg ? the nation's most knowledgeable consumer advocate on new car buying and leasing, with over 20 years and 60,000 hours focused on all aspects of this important purchase decision:
"IF YOU BELIEVE 'THE INVOICE PRICE' MINUS 'HOLDBACK' IS WHAT DEALERS
REALLY PAY FOR A NEW CAR, AND THAT YOU SHOULD AIM FOR A 'TARGET PRICE,'
YOU'VE BEEN HOODWINKED BY THOSE BIG AUTO-PRICING WEBSITES THAT
EITHER DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH OR (WORSE) DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW IT."
"YOU WON'T FIND THIS TRUTH ON KELLEY BLUE BOOK, EDMUNDS, TRUECAR,
INTELLICHOICE,
CONSUMER REPORTS OR ANY OTHER AUTO INFO SITE. THEIR REVENUE STREAMS WOULD DRY UP OVERNIGHT IF THEY REVEALED HOW
THE AUTO INDUSTRY HAS 'REDESIGNED' THE DEALER INVOICE PRICE."
"YOU NEED
THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT HOW DEALERS ARE COMPENSATED
TODAY AND HOW THAT CHANGES YOUR ENTIRE NEGOTIATING APPROACH."
"THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE YOU'LL FIND IT. GUARANTEED!"
"AND ONCE YOU KNOW IT, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND: (1) THAT THE 'TARGET PRICES' THOSE SITES RECOMMEND ARE BASED ON A BOGUS ASSUMPTION ABOUT 'DEALER COST,' AND (2) THAT THE PRICE PROPOSALS YOU'LL GET FROM THEIR 'DEALER NETWORKS' WILL NEVER BE THE BEST PRICES AVAILABLE IN YOUR MARKET."
"THE KEY FACTS ARE COVERED IN OUR MULTI-FACETED INFORMATION PACKAGE. BUT I HAVE JUST PUBLISHED AN EBOOK, 'LETTING THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG,' THAT TELLS THE WHOLE STORY OF THE SEARCH FOR THAT TRUTH ? HOW THE EVIDENCE MOUNTED, PIECE-BY-PIECE AND YEAR-BY-YEAR, FINALLY LEADING TO ONE GAME-CHANGING CONCLUSION. THIS $4.99 EXPOSE´ WILL MAKE EVERY SITE VISITOR A SMARTER NEW-CAR SHOPPER. TO SEE A TABLE OF CONTENTS, CLICK ON 'JAMES BRAGG'S BOMBSHELL NEW BOOK' IN THE LEFT COLUMN. YOU CAN PURCHASE AND DOWNLOAD THE BOOK AT
mybookorders."
(Note: September is an excellent month to be car shopping. It's typically a somewhat slower sales period, as families are in the back-to-school mode. Dealers will be working hard to keep the summer's momentum going, focusing on beating last September's total and dealing aggressively on 2012 models as the 2013's arrive. All orders received over the 3-day Labor Day weekend will be sent to customers on Tuesday.)
JAMES BRAGG
The Fighting Chance information package will create a seismic shift in the way you think about and approach the new-vehicle buying process by revealing:
(1)
How the dealer invoice price, which used to be a fair approximation of the dealer's real cost, "ain't what it used to be" and hasn't been for over 15 years. We have uncovered exactly how the auto industry "totally redesigned" the invoice price to hide the real dealer cost when the Internet arrived in the mid-1990s, an ongoing process that continues to this day. Every one of those auto-pricing websites is still presenting the automaker-dealer financial relationship to you the way it was in the early 1990s, not the way it is today. Why? Because they get all their revenue from car companies and dealers and can't tell you the truth.
(2)
How that "redesign" has dramatically impacted the real "dealer cost." You will read words like "truth" and "transparency" on some pricing websites. The dictionary defines "truth" as "
that which is in accordance with fact or reality." It defines "transparency" as "
characterized by visibility or accessibility of information concerning business practices." But since the auto industry's total "redesign" of the dealer invoice price, there's been absolutely
nothing "transparent" about the "true" financial relationship between automakers and their franchised dealers, which dramatically affects the
real net cost of the vehicles they sell.
(3)
How that makes both the information and the "target price" negotiating advice you're getting from those "corporate" auto-pricing websites and Consumer Reports ancient, obsolete and dangerous to your bank balance (but generous to theirs).
For example, TrueCar's definition of "transparency" is apparently knowing "the true price of what people can expect to pay on average for new cars in your local area." They claim that's what "you need to be confident in your car purchase."
Do they think we all just fell off the turnip truck? That we don't understand that a "Market Average" price (which they claim "lets you know what you should pay") means, by definition, that about half of those buyers got a better deal? Duh! (Edmunds' recommended "True Market Value" target is also the average transaction price for a vehicle.)
Then they tell us "the average savings off MSRP" the dealers in their network "have offered to other TrueCar users," a number which includes any automaker rebates.
Do they think we're dumb as fence posts? Aside from the Village Idiot or someone who thinks Taco bell is a Mexican phone company, who pays the MSRP today? And even
those doofuses receive any current rebate automatically!
In its "Why We Are Here" statement, TrueCar says, "We believe that truth and transparency are the keys to customer satisfaction and dealer profitability." Based on their definition of these two words, they are definitely "the keys to dealer profitability." But the only satisfied customers will be those who are happy to pay "what other people really paid," as all Saturn buyers were. If that's your idea of "customer satisfaction," or if you're worried about "dealer profitability," go for it! But understand, new-car transaction prices are negotiable, and a negotiation is "
a discussion aimed at reaching an agreement." Opting to pay "what other people really paid" isn't negotiation, it's capitulation!
(4)
How 120,764 customers have used the Fighting Chance negotiating process to get the best price available on the new vehicle they wanted. As a Fighting Chance customer, you'll accomplish that objective without walking into a car store. You don't make offers to them. Dealers
you choose make offers to you in a competitive bidding process that you control, not in one of those "milk runs" controlled by those other websites which only send you to dealers in their limited "networks" who pay them for dumping you on their doorsteps. And with all the "below-the-line" ways dealers get money from automakers, the car store that'll sell for the low price this month might well be the high bidder next month. (Why aren't any other car-pricing and auto information sites telling you that?)
HOW DO THOSE 120,764 CUSTOMERS FEEL ABOUT US?
Check the reports in the "Testimonials" button on the upper left and see why more than half of our orders now come from previous customers and their referrals to friends & relatives. You won't find any other auto information website with feedback like this. It illustrates dramatically the difference between Fighting Chance results and those of every other auto info website.
SAME-DAY EMAIL DELIVERY WEEKDAYS
Weekday orders received by 3:00PM Pacific time are sent the same day. Late Friday and weekend orders typically go out Monday. Delivery choices: email (98% of customers request this method), snail mail or FedEx.
You should get the Fighting Chance package well ahead of your negotiating timing to have an opportunity to study it and call us with questions before launching your request for competitive price proposals. If you wait until late in the month, when you should start contacting dealers, you will be scrambling to assimilate the information and complete the negotiation successfully.
THREE UNIQUE DIFFERENCES SEPARATE US FROM ALL OTHER AUTO INFO SITES
(1) This is the only service that reveals to you the best-kept secret in the new-car business: the hidden long-term financial relationship between automakers and their dealers. The two package pieces listed below will expose a side of today's car business no one has told you about ? something that no Internet site could reveal (if they knew it) without jeopardizing their relationships with their sole sources of revenue ? auto companies and car dealers.
? "What I've Learned About 'Below-The-Line' Cash-to-Dealer Programs, Facts No One Else Is Telling You," and . . .
?"The Missing Link: The Top-Secret Fact The New-Car Business Has Been Hiding From Consumers For Over 15 Years, Finally Uncovered"
(2) This the only auto buying & leasing information service that teaches you, step-by-detailed-step, exactly how to negotiate the best price available in your market
without walking into a car store, and also has two savvy coaches available by phone to hold your hand as you go through the process. Got a question about anything we send you? Call us. Or about something a dealer said? Call us. Want us to go through the numbers on a lease before you sign it? Call us. That's why we're here.
(3) Our $39.95 information package is anchored by these key elements:
? The complete pricing data for the vehicles you're considering, showing the suggested retail "sticker" price (MSRP) and the dealer invoice price for each model you order, including all trim levels and optional equipment. Although the dealer invoice price is not what dealers end up paying for cars and shouldn't be used as the basis for establishing any "target price," it is still the industry touchstone for judging deals. (The question we ask our customers to answer in their transaction reports is, "How much over or under the total invoice price did you pay, excluding the effect of any cash incentives in effect?")
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? The Fighting Chance "Big Picture" analysis of how the manufacturer(s) and the specific vehicle(s) you're interested in have been doing in the market.
To see a sample "Big Picture" analysis (not a current file), click here.
? The latest issue of
CarDeals, a bi-weekly report of current national cash incentive offers and cut-rate financing programs.
To see a sample of the CarDeals report (not a current edition), click here.
? The package's centerpiece, "How The Email/Fax Attack Can Get You The Best Deal, Saving You Time, Money and Aggravation," outlining what to do and say each step of the way as you conduct a competitive bidding process from your home or office. It includes a sample letter about the specs of the car you want that you'd email or fax to dealerships that agree to participate.
The package includes several other helpful pieces you won't find elsewhere:
? "Will Your Vehicle's Value Drop Like A Rock?" ?a piece on how well your vehicle holds its value vs. other similar vehicles.
? "How To Avoid The Big Leasing Rip-Off."
? "Things To Consider About Placing a Factory Order."
? "Dealing With A Trade-In."
? "Should You Buy A Demo? At What Price?"
? "The Crucial Financial Importance Of A Dealership's Customer Satisfaction Rating."
? "What Some Companies Don't Want You To Know About Product Quality (And Others Hope You'll Learn About Theirs)."
? "Smart Ways To Buy An Extended Warranty."
? "Have You Chosen A Crashworthy Vehicle?"
? "Can You Get The Vehicle Configuration You Want?"
? "Should You Buy Last Year's Model?"
WHAT'S OUR CREATOR'S PEDIGREE?
If you're wondering, "Who is James Bragg?", the founder and hands-on, day-to-day worker bee, click on "Why Choose Us" in the upper left column for a revealing "open letter" about his professional background, why he created Fighting Chance, his passion for finding and conveying truths that no one else is revealing and his feelings about car dealers.
He has logged over 20 years and 60,000 working hours on this one subject and may be the country's most knowledgeable consumer advocate on new-car buying and leasing. (As he frequently says, "I've been doing this since before the Dead Sea got sick, and I learn a little more every day.") Random house sold 65,000 copies of his book, "Car Buyers And Leasers Negotiating Bible." (Check Amazon to see readers' sparkling reviews.) As examples of the quality of the information pieces he provides, click on "Leasing 101" and "Test Driving 101" in the "free advice" section of the navigation bar to the left.
SPECIAL MESSAGE TO PREVIOUS CUSTOMERS
The Fighting Chance package is always changing to reflect new knowledge and the best ways to deal with the changing realities in the retail car business. Sometimes the changes are dramatic. For example, the method for getting competitive bids differs substantially from the arms-length "fax attack" process we recommended just a few years ago. At other times the changes are small, but represent worthwhile improvements. The suggested wording in the note you'll send dealers is fine-tuned often. The package you'd receive today will typically include several insightful changes compared to the one you ordered years ago.
THE COST OF THIS UNIQUE PACKAGE?
$39.95 (Includes all the information you need on any one vehicle.)
Additional vehicles: $15.00 each. (More than half of our customers add one or more additional vehicles as "fall-back" alternatives. This could become a small, but wise $15.00 decision if you find it difficult to deal on your first choice.)
Considering the substantial cost of the new vehicle you're about to buy or lease, isn't this a relatively small price to pay for the comprehensive Fighting Chance information package?
Click here for complete
pricing and ordering details, including a secure, encrypted order form you can e-mail to us or print, fill out and fax to us.
If you'd prefer to place a phone order, or if you have questions that aren't answered on our web site, you may call our order desk at 1-800-288-1134 between 9:00AM and 4:00PM Pacific time, Monday through Friday. (We don't work on weekends.)
Click here for current list of model pricingavailable.
Important Note: This is a service for NEW VEHICLES ONLY. We have no information on used vehicles. Also, we have NO CANADIAN PRICING DATA. (For Canadian pricing, visit carcostcanada.com)
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Links to Our Other Pages
To learn more about us, click on the links below.
See a more
detailed description of the elementsin our information package.
Read our
straight-talking overview of the automobile market's dismal performance last year,including brand-by-brand results that you may find nowhere else.
For an up-to-the-minute listing of model pricing available, see
Current Auto Pricing Data Available.
For a few grins and a creative challenge, play
"The Car Name Game".
To learn how and why Fighting Chance is a much better information source for new-vehicle shoppers, check out
Why Choose Us?.
If you'd like to receive the information package, place your
order here.
Customer Testimonials
FightingChance.com
