FISA Memo

[Pirata]

Had to make a 2 hour drive to an ER in the middle of night. I don't normally post at 3 in the morning.

Listened to both CNN and Fox on the way down.

It is truly sad how partisan this and most issues are.

I'm going to stay on the sidelines on this one until more info is revealed.

I found both CNN and Fox to be over the top on their respective positions.

 

[Merge]

Hope everyone is ok?

I avoided the spin entirely until I had a chance to read it myself. Based on what we already know, the memo is obviously very misleading. It was a complete dud. Congressmen were saying this was all worse than watergate, people were going to jail. Wikileaks offered a million for someone to leak it. All that build up and it’s basically an opinion that we should not have been monitoring page. I didn’t see a claim of any actual law being broken.

We know Page was targeted by Russians in 2013 to become an asset for them. We also knew we were alerted about Papadapolous from Australian officials that he was talking about being offered hacked emails from the Russians.

The idea that the court allowed and renewed a FISA warrant based on the dossier alone is laughably absurd.

The comment about Mccabes testimony saying the warrant would not have been issued if not for Steele seemed problematic, although odd based on his history with the Russians. Page even knew the FBI thought Russians were targeting him as an asset.

Dems are claiming McCabe never said that, and want his testimony released.

And again laughably... Nunes did not read the FISA application. This stinks of pure partisan BS.

Nunes recused himself previously because we learned the white hiuse directed him to come out with the unmasking nonsense. The fact he is out there taking orders from the white house again should make you wonder what kind of leverage they have on him.

 

[cernjSHU]

I fail to see how this memo helps Trump. I just don’t see the big deal. Let’s assume everything in the memo is true. What do we get out of it?

1) The Russian Investigation starts because of Papadopoulos. The FBI agent who begins the investigation is the guy with the texts. But Papadopoulos has plead guilty so obviously there is credible evidence there

2) The FISA warrants were procured with the Steele Dossier information and that was biased. Uhm. Even if true, so what? It is the information that is revealed from the warrants that is the basis of the continued investigation that is important. That evidence is what Mueller is investigating.

 

[Merge]

I fail to see how this memo helps Trump

Could be they are trying to build their case that Trump did not obstruct justice, making it appear that they fired Comey and McCabe for legitimate reasons. btw, yes, McCabe "stepped down" but even Don Jr. tweeted that he was fired...

Could also use the memo to get rid of Rosenstein which is why they released their memo without allowing the dem memo to be released at the same time.

 

[SPK145]

I'd like to see the Dem memo as well as a memo that actually has the truth in it.

Why did the Dems fight tooth and nail to not have the Repub memo released?

Why wasn't the Dem memo released at the same time?

 

[Merge]

Why did the Dems fight tooth and nail to not have the Repub memo released?

Because this isn't normal political spin, this is Nunes working with the white house to use an intelligence committee to release a memo which was misleading at best.
I'm glad they fought it. That behavior isn't normal.

Why wasn't the Dem memo released at the same time?

Because republicans want their narrative out first. To what end, we don't really know yet. If Rosenstein is forced out before the dem memo is released, you will have your answer.

 

[Pirata]

Why wasn't the Dem memo released at the same time?

My understanding is the Dem memo has many sources in it and the redaction process is more complex than the Republicans memo.

 

[Merge]

My understanding is the Dem memo has many sources in it and the redaction process is more complex than the Republicans memo.

Then wait a couple days and release both? Was there a super bowl deadline to release the memo or something?

 

[HALL85]

The reality is that most of America has tuned out on all of this back and forth. At the end of the day we are likely to find out politics is a lot dirtier on both sides and there are bad actors in our intelligence community, more than even the most skeptical thought.

 

[Merge]

The memo was such a disappointment for Trump, he named it Eric.

 

[Merge]

and there are bad actors in our intelligence community, more than even the most skeptical thought.

Possible, although nothing in this memo has drawn us towards that.

 

[HALL85]

Possible, although nothing in this memo has drawn us towards that.

Coincidence McCabe was canned before it's release? How about the "couple" and their texts? All innocent?

 

[Merge]

Coincidence McCabe was canned before it's release? How about the "couple" and their texts? All innocent?

No coincidence at all. Trump fired McCabe and is using the memo to justify it, even though there is nothing in the memo that is evidence of him acting inappropriately.

McCabe was fired because the news got out last week about Trump asking him who he voted for, and told him to ask his wife how it feels to be a loser.
Trump has wanted him out for months.

We knew of the Strzok text's for a while. They are not new. They were problematic and he was let go because of them.
Turned out he was also the guy that drafted the memo to re-open the Hillary e-mail investigation though when they saw the e-mail on Wiener's laptop.
Hard to paint the picture that he acted inappropriately in his duties as an FBI agent against Trump, when it turns out he was a key player in getting him elected... so no, I wouldn't label anything in this memo as evidence of a "bad actor" within the IC.

 

[cernjSHU]

I'd like to see the Dem memo as well as a memo that actually has the truth in it.

Why did the Dems fight tooth and nail to not have the Repub memo released?

Why wasn't the Dem memo released at the same time?

Republicans on the committee voted down to release the Democratic memo. But, I have to agree, why did the Dems fight the publishing of this memo? There was no hidden secrets or national security issues in it. Nor was there anything in it except an attempt to say hey this whole investigation is no good because it started with people who were biased against Trump. It's really nothing.

 

[HALL85]

No coincidence at all. Trump fired McCabe and is using the memo to justify it, even though there is nothing in the memo that is evidence of him acting inappropriately.

McCabe was fired because the news got out last week about Trump asking him who he voted for, and told him to ask his wife how it feels to be a loser.
Trump has wanted him out for months.

We knew of the Strzok text's for a while. They are not new. They were problematic and he was let go because of them.
Turned out he was also the guy that drafted the memo to re-open the Hillary e-mail investigation though when they saw the e-mail on Wiener's laptop.
Hard to paint the picture that he acted inappropriately in his duties as an FBI agent against Trump, when it turns out he was a key player in getting him elected... so no, I wouldn't label anything in this memo as evidence of a "bad actor" within the IC.

Bad actors are bad actors. Strzok and his mistress are bad actors and it doesn't matter if they did it to one or both parties. You are so certain about McCabe but there is no evidence that supports yet another of your conspiracy theories. Never said there was any proof in this memo about anything.

 

[Merge]

Bad actors are bad actors. Strzok and his mistress are bad actors and it doesn't matter if they did it to one or both parties. You are so certain about McCabe but there is no evidence that supports yet another of your conspiracy theories. Never said there was any proof in this memo about anything.

So you posting that we are likely going to find our our IC is dirtier than we thought is not a conspiracy theory... but me suggesting Trump wanting McCabe out and is using the memo as his reason to get rid of him is?

If only we had some insight into the President's thoughts on him.

 

[HALL85]

So you posting that we are likely going to find our our IC is dirtier than we thought is not a conspiracy theory... but me suggesting Trump wanting McCabe out and is using the memo as his reason to get rid of him is?

If only we had some insight into the President's thoughts on him.

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Because I'm not stating a bunch of occurances as facts that supports a conspiracy. I'm not buying into the partisan talking points to support my personal narritive. I said before that I'm waiting and watching. Certain people though have been outed. It feels like it's we're going to find there is a swamp, Just my feeling...no conspiracy like you.

 

[Merge]

Because I'm not stating a bunch of occurances as facts that supports a conspiracy. I'm not buying into the partisan talking points to support my personal narritive. I said before that I'm waiting and watching. Certain people though have been outed. It feels like it's we're going to find there is a swamp, Just my feeling...no conspiracy like you.

Please... You saying we will find out there is a swamp is no different than me saying my opinion that Trump will go down due to this investigation.
They are both our opinions based on the facts that have been presented yet your opinion is somehow a "feeling" and mine is a "conspiracy theory"?

Everything here is our opinions based on the facts as they have been presented.
I'm just willing to state my opinion that Trump has attempted to impede or influence the investigation with corrupt intent based on the facts that we know.

Just like you are willing to state that we are going to find a swamp in the IC based on the facts that we know.

 

[Pirata]

Sounds like another hundred dollar bet is in order

 

[HALL85]

Please... You saying we will find out there is a swamp is no different than me saying my opinion that Trump will go down due to this investigation.
They are both our opinions based on the facts that have been presented yet your opinion is somehow a "feeling" and mine is a "conspiracy theory"?

Everything here is our opinions based on the facts as they have been presented.
I'm just willing to state my opinion that Trump has attempted to impede or influence the investigation with corrupt intent based on the facts that we know.

Just like you are willing to state that we are going to find a swamp in the IC based on the facts that we know.

Putting words in my mouth...typical. I never said "will" or stated any absolutes like you always do. There are certain irrefutable facts that we know. Fusion GPS existed and was paid; Strzock is dirty and has been fired; McCabe resigned; Comey was fired; there have been indictments, there are "memos", etc.. I'm not assessing guilt or taking a side with anyone like you Mr. Conspiracy. You think those are all business as usual events?

 

[Merge]

Putting words in my mouth...typical. I never said "will" or stated any absolutes like you always do.

You’re reaching. Everything I post here is my opinion. Like I am 38-11 on the season in the contest of guessing BE games. I am using the information I have available to me to make an expectation. Nothing anyone states is certainty.

This board wouldn’t exist without opinions. I’m just willing to state mine.

Some of them are more painfully obvious like when I said trump firing Comey would lead to an obstruction investigation. That was my opinion.

And some are less obvious like my opinion is that Trump is guilty of obstruction... but I am happy to walk you through the facts that help me reach my opinion.

 

[HALL85]

You’re reaching. Everything I post here is my opinion. Like I am 38-11 on the season in the contest of guessing BE games. I am using the information I have available to me to make an expectation. Nothing anyone states is certainty.

This board wouldn’t exist without opinions. I’m just willing to state mine.

Some of them are more painfully obvious like when I said trump firing Comey would lead to an obstruction investigation. That was my opinion.

And some are less obvious like my opinion is that Trump is guilty of obstruction... but I am happy to walk you through the facts that help me reach my opinion.

Merge, please save your partisan leaning "facts"...I get it. It's fine to have opinions...have at it. Don't think I'm trying to stop you.

 

[Pirata]

An occasional IMO inserted in your posts would go along way. The way you write makes your "opinioins" come across as if you are stating them as facts.

 

[HALL85]

An occasional IMO inserted in your posts would go along way. The way you write makes your "opinioins" come across as if you are stating them as facts.

I'll take that under advisement...

 

[Pirata]

That wasn't meant for you.

 

[HALL85]

That wasn't meant for you.

lol...just saw that...

 

[shu09]

Here's my opinion on Trump and his presidency, a little more than a year in.

He is a morally bankrupt person, an opportunist and a narcissist. He has proven that throughout his life and it's now on display for all to see as president. I didn't vote for him in 2016 and I'm undecided if I will vote for him in 2020 (if he runs).

I do think he has done a decent job. He has accelerated the economy, is hitting ISIS hard, brought jobs back to the US, enforced the borders and attempted to pump the brakes on the runaway globalism train. He has shaken up and rattled Washington DC, which is exactly what he was elected to do. The country needed a disruptor and a check on the left. This country was moving too far left, too quickly. He has stemmed that tide a bit.

There is absolutely bias in the media against him (often significant). I do think some elements of the investigation are a "witch hunt," as he puts it. The "establishment" and world order does not like him because he is a disruptor and not one of the good old boys. They will do things covertly to hurt him, which is what his references to the "deep state" are about. However, I do think there are legitimate aspects to the investigation that must be worked through.

I don't personally believe that he "colluded" with Russia to win an election, but the process should be allowed to play out and it should be proven one way or another.

 

[Pirata]

Last night's ER visit has progressed to a final hospice vigil for my MIL. Lotsa time to read the various viewpoints of several news and newslike sources.

Merge, thank you for kind words.

Regarding the FISA memo situatuin, there are clearly the two partisan perspectives. There are more questions than answers. Too much speculation and theoretical conclusions.

My question is whether there is a legitimate authority we can trust to get to the truth, regardless of which side it falls on. I am not sure such a mechanism exists and that worries me as much as the wrongdoings proposed on both sides, perhaps more.

 

[Merge]

Regarding the FISA memo situatuin, there are clearly the two partisan perspectives. There are more questions than answers. Too much speculation and theoretical conclusions.

That was probably the intent of the memo. To raise questions in your mind around this investigation.

But let’s add some perspective on it. Carter page himself in 2013 wrote “Over the past half year, I have had the privilege to serve as an informal advisor to the staff of the Kremlin in preparation for their Presidency of the G-20 Summit next month, where energy issues will be a prominent point on the agenda,”

We arrested the SVR recruiters who were trying to recruit carter page in 2013. https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...attachments/2015/01/26/buryakov-complaint.pdf

Page was confirmed to be “male-1” in the above.

Page was interviewed by the FBI due to his connections with Russians/Russia prior to joining the Trump campaign. (Who the hell added him and Manafort to the campaign?)

Four seperate judges, all appointed by republicans approved the FISA warrants.

Nunes armitted he did not read the actual FISA application.

Based on all of those facts. I just don’t understand how anyone can’t see the memo as using an intelligence committee for a political stunt.

Even Trey Gowdy, who has actually read the FISA application, was out saying that we still have the investigation without the dossier.

 

[Pirata]

Nunes armitted he did not read the actual FISA application.

Merge, your overall post was reasonable and your theory was plausible .

However when you add the above line that I quoted you lose a little credibility. Given your track record of research I assume you are well aware that the DOJ negotiated with the committee that only one person would be allowed to directly review the material. Nunes selected Gowdy to do that because he felt he was the best qualified based on his prosecutor experience.

Nunes sent the memo in his role as the chair of the committee. Your use of the word "admited" is effective in casting doubt on the memo but it does not reflect what actually happened. The uninformed reader of your post could easily get sucked into your spin.

Doing this doesn't serve you well because as I said your overall post was good but then when you throw something like that in it gives people something to grab onto and distract from the good points that you made.

 

[Pirata]

Based on all of those facts. I just don’t understand how anyone can’t see the memo as using an intelligence committee for a political stunt.

If those were the only facts about this situation you might have an argument.

There are other facts which you are leaving out and you know that.

 

[Merge]

Doing this doesn't serve you well because as I said your overall post was good but then when you throw something like that in it gives people something to grab onto and distract from the good points that you made.

I do believe it is an important distinction because that is not how the information was presented to the public.

Nunes did not present the whole picture. He doesn’t even know the whole picture.

 

[Merge]

If those were the only facts about this situation you might have an argument.

There are other facts which you are leaving out and you know that.

What was the main allegation from the memo?

(In my opinion) it was that a politically motivated document was the basis which mislead a judge into issuing FISA warrant. Agree?

Does that premise make sense based win what we know about page?

 

[Pirata]

I don't agree or disagree.

I have listened to both theories and I believe they are both plausible.

Each theory has an underlying political motivation. My hope is that we ultimately learn the truth independent of the political motivation.

 

[Merge]

I have listened to both theories and I believe they are both plausible.

You think it is plausible that Carter Page was under surveillance only because of a politically motivated document even though he was under surveillance by the FBI 3 years before the dossier was created, and Russian agents were recorded talking about trying to recruit him to be a Russian asset?

 

[Pirata]

Just for clarity, my simplified framing of the two sides is.

1. Page was a legitimate target for survellince based on his known activites. The FISA application was consistent with the standards of any other app. Dem conclusion: Whats the big deal? This was a political stunt.

2. Hillary paid for the dossier so they could get a FISA which would give the dems a legal way to get to Page and advance the collusion theory. (BTW, this reminded me of Valkyrie).

Very simplified. There is much more nuaance to either side.

 

[Pirata]

Years back I read a few books about the explosion on the Battleship Iowa. There were two primary theories about the cause each with political and power motivations. In the process careers and reputations were ruined. Both sides dug in their heels and were committed to their respective theories regardless of any facts that were presented.

It took a long investigation by a National Laboratory to eventually allow the Navy to come to a reasonable acceptance of the likely cause. The cause was never 100% conclusively determined.

That book has stuck with me through the years and I have seen this theme applied to many situations including some things in my own life.

 

[Pirata]

You think it is plausible that Carter Page was under surveillance only because of a politically motivated document even though he was under surveillance by the FBI 3 years before the dossier was created, and Russian agents were recorded talking about trying to recruit him to be a Russian asset?

I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth and taking license.

Take a hike Solo. You add nothing.

 

[Merge]

I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth and taking license.

Take a hike Solo. You add nothing.

I was trying to understand what your believed that would memo appear plausible, because like I said.. I don’t get it.

So just so I understand you correctly - you think the plausible theory is that Hillary sought out a way to push a conspiracy theory regarding collusion so they targeted Page so the FBI would monitor the Trump campaign?

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so before I respond to that, is that correct?

 

[SPK145]

I'd like to see McCabe's actual testimony and the report the Inspector General is going to issue in a few weeks as well.