Hurricane Carter/NSL

[HALL85]

Another example of why maybe Julie Hermann was right (but should have never said the words publically) that the NSL should go out of business. Dave D'Allesandro with a piece today that was factually incorrect, but that doesn't mean anything if you're trying to make a point. Rubin Carter was never found innocent of the crime that he and John Artis committed. The decision was overturned.

He also speaks of Bob Dylan's famous song about the trial, but fails to mention that Dylan has wanted nothing to do with any association with Carter for decades. And no mention of the woman that he beat senseless (who was helping him in fund raising efforts). That wouldn't help depict this criminal in the light D'Allesadro is choosing. Who cares about facts..it's the NSL.




Carter

 

[Section112]

But movie stars thought it was a travesty of justice!

 

[SnakeTom]

The only thing clear is that celebreties get a better chance in our legal system if for no reason other than access to better funding to mount a defense. Either way guilty or innocent justice was not done in this case. If Rubin was in fact innocent he spent much too much time behind bars, but if he was guilty he got out of jail much too soon. Either way justice was not served.

TK

 

[Pirate6711]

Originally posted by SnakeTom:
The only thing clear is that celebreties get a better chance in our legal system if for no reason other than access to better funding to mount a defense. Either way guilty or innocent justice was not done in this case. If Rubin was in fact innocent he spent much too much time behind bars, but if he was guilty he got out of jail much too soon. Either way justice was not served.

TK

The part is bold is exactly how I feel about the situation. It was a flimsy case that probably wouldn't last past an evidentiary hearing today without more hard evidence or anything to support the eye witness testimony. It's too bad because we will never know the whole truth to this case and, like Tom said, justice was not served no matter if Carter did it or didn't do it.

 

[HALL85]

Snake, 6711,

That statement also resonates with me. I happened to have lived through this at a personal level and knew some of the people that were directly involved and this is purely my opinion. There is no doubt in my mind Carter and Artis committed the crime. Looking back though, this was a highly racially charged time when this all happened in Paterson. I think that played into the pressure to arrest and gather evidence. I'd be naive to think that there weren't cops involved that had racist views. I do know that the detective leading the investigation has been wrongly depicted in some stories (and Hollywood) and that itself is another travesty.

My sense is that there was enough circumstantial evidence for a conviction but that it was not a slam dunk by any stretch. There were likely some mistakes made in the gathering of evidence. Paterson was a powder keg and there was a ton of adreniline flowing on all sides. My sense is that they pushed the envelop to ensure they had a case. Years later, there were also some obvious things the police missed, but it's easy for me to be the Monday morning quarterback.

The feeling was John Artis was somewhat of a victim. He was a teenager with no record that was befriended by Carter and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, getting caught up in a reactionary event. Remember, the first conviction was upheld a second time. By the time the decision was overturned, many of the players had died and the Passaic County Prosecuters office nor the state wanted to invest more time and money for a third trial.

I'm not sure if this case shows the flaws or value in our legal system. As much visiblity that I had to things, one of our posters that passed away recently could provide a much more detailed perspective.

 

[Pirate6711]

Hall85-

Thanks for that post. My knowledge of the case is limited to various items that I have read. I have not seen the movie and don't have a great desire to see it because movies like that always twist around facts to create entertainment and make money. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence, but when I said that it wouldn't go far today, I meant that the lack of physical evidence with today's scientific advances would make it difficult to convict. Like you said, it's easy to play MMQB, but they probably should have continued the investigation and evidence collection instead of rushing (in my opinion) the trial. But that's easy to say from far away and as somebody who has never been in a political and cultural climate that Paterson was known for at that time.

It all keeps going back to what Tom said, if Carter really did it, then justice wasn't served because he didn't serve his sentence and if Carter didn't do it, then justice wasn't served because he was in prison for too long.

 

[Torino1]

Dillon? As a entertainer he , was one of the best.As a boxing talent evaluator,he should have kept his mouth shut..Carter did not have the talent,character or commitment to become a world champion.

 

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by Torino1:
Dillon? As a entertainer he , was one of the best.As a boxing talent evaluator,he should have kept his mouth shut..Carter did not have the talent,character or commitment to become a world champion.

Bob Dylan does not pretend to be an evaluator of boxing talent. He is a song writer and in my opinion the best of his generation at that. He has written other songs about sporting figues including 'Who Killed Davey Moore" and one about Catfish Hunter. As to The Hurricane the song was primarily about his conviction which matter of factly states that he was the top contender for the middlewight crown which he was as he did fight Joey Giordello for the title after victories over multiple time welter and middlewight champion Emile Griffin & future heavyweight titleholder Jimmy Ellis.

TK

 

[Torino1]

Dillon even proclaimed Carter could have been champion of the world. Lol,Carter got a shot at title and lost.

 

[Seton75]

Artis is looked as a victim, while Carter was def guilty. Odd. Why set up one guy when the other guy is guilty and you know it? I don't think Artis ever implicrted Carter, though doing so it would seem would help his cause. The behavior of too many cops in too many high profile cases has earned the public's distrust. The West Memphis III case was BS. And the poor kids who got brow beaten into confessing to the central park wilding crimes. And then there is the cop killer from Phila who seems guilty as hell, and the guy who got the chair a few years ago in Atlanta who also seemed guilty. Look at the demographics of the guys executed in TX. But if people with name recognition and money don't get involved, all the shit is forever swept under the rug. Can you imagine building a case against someone simply cause the politics demands an arrest? What human would do something so odious. Sadly, the answer is lots of us.

 

[Seton75]

Remember, the first conviction was upheld a second time.

You are too smart to think that means anything.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Seton75:
Artis is looked as a victim, while Carter was def guilty. Odd. Why set up one guy when the other guy is guilty and you know it? I don't think Artis ever implicrted Carter, though doing so it would seem would help his cause. The behavior of too many cops in too many high profile cases has earned the public's distrust. The West Memphis III case was BS. And the poor kids who got brow beaten into confessing to the central park wilding crimes. And then there is the cop killer from Phila who seems guilty as hell, and the guy who got the chair a few years ago in Atlanta who also seemed guilty. Look at the demographics of the guys executed in TX. But if people with name recognition and money don't get involved, all the shit is forever swept under the rug. Can you imagine building a case against someone simply cause the politics demands an arrest? What human would do something so odious. Sadly, the answer is lots of us.

Artis was a kid at the time with no record. The concensus was that he was awestruck by Carter and got caught up in something that he never had any intention of getting involved. You're right...never implicated him and kept quiet all these years. Maybe he felt he owed him something from before the crimes were committed. Only he can answer that.

Nothing is ever certain, but having personally lived through this with some of the parties that were central to the case, I'm convinced Carter was the gunman, but the policework cut corners (due to that pressure). I have never seen or heard anything that would convince me otherwise. Yes there are wrongful convictions. I just don't think this was one of them.