NJ reproductive freedom act (s3030/a4848)

[donnie_baseball]

I am honestly not trying to begin an abortion debate here, but rather wonder if anyone is OK with the parameters of a bill like this one, which Phil and Tammy Murphy are trying to ram through the legislature.

If you read the bill, it would provide abortion access through 9 months of pregnancy, taxpayer-funded, with no provisions for resuscitation for survivors, no conscience rights for practitioners, and no parental consent needed. To top it all off, it would provide access for those from out-of-state, making NJ a "haven" of sorts.

On the legal end, and maybe some of our esteemed counselors can chime in, the bill also contains language suggesting that there can be no future challenges to the law as written.
Is this the kind of legislation we should be accepting of, as residents of NJ? I'm in favor of marijuana legalization, but the provisos of that bill, rightly recalled and rewritten, were insane, too.

The "end of the middle class" was always a sky is falling scenario, and usually ridiculous. With the rhetoric, the mass exodus of moderates -- replaced by the wealthy, happy to pay taxes at any rate, for the privilege of living in a bubble of their own philosophy -- it's in progress. Add to that the anti-Trump movement, with many who will "never vote Republican again," and we are headed for East California.

 

[HALL85]

I am honestly not trying to begin an abortion debate here, but rather wonder if anyone is OK with the parameters of a bill like this one, which Phil and Tammy Murphy are trying to ram through the legislature.

If you read the bill, it would provide abortion access through 9 months of pregnancy, taxpayer-funded, with no provisions for resuscitation for survivors, no conscience rights for practitioners, and no parental consent needed. To top it all off, it would provide access for those from out-of-state, making NJ a "haven" of sorts.

On the legal end, and maybe some of our esteemed counselors can chime in, the bill also contains language suggesting that there can be no future challenges to the law as written.
Is this the kind of legislation we should be accepting of, as residents of NJ? I'm in favor of marijuana legalization, but the provisos of that bill, rightly recalled and rewritten, were insane, too.

The "end of the middle class" was always a sky is falling scenario, and usually ridiculous. With the rhetoric, the mass exodus of moderates -- replaced by the wealthy, happy to pay taxes at any rate, for the privilege of living in a bubble of their own philosophy -- it's in progress. Add to that the anti-Trump movement, with many who will "never vote Republican again," and we are headed for East California.

I haven’t seen or read this bill, but if it includes what you are suggesting, it’s awful. So glad I am now a resident of PA.

 

[shu09]

With the rhetoric, the mass exodus of moderates -- replaced by the wealthy, happy to pay taxes at any rate, for the privilege of living in a bubble of their own philosophy -- it's in progress.

You hit the nail on the head. This is what's happening at the state and local level across the country. Legislation is being rammed through (not just in NJ) by the extremes of both parties to drive out moderates and create exclusive bubbles where everyone thinks the same way. It's quite scary.

Dangerous people like Phil Murphy (and Tag-Along Tammy) use their money and influence to get elected, then use the levers of political power to bully government into conforming to their personal beliefs. They do not represent the people of the state, only the extreme ends of the spectrum that rabidly support them.

 

[Pirata]

 

[SPK145]

I am honestly not trying to begin an abortion debate here, but rather wonder if anyone is OK with the parameters of a bill like this one, which Phil and Tammy Murphy are trying to ram through the legislature.

If you read the bill, it would provide abortion access through 9 months of pregnancy, taxpayer-funded, with no provisions for resuscitation for survivors, no conscience rights for practitioners, and no parental consent needed. To top it all off, it would provide access for those from out-of-state, making NJ a "haven" of sorts.

If true, this is a despicable thing.

I am against abortion but realize it's probably not going away but to actually encourage it which this bill would do is just disgusting and disgraceful. Fetuses bleed too and that blood will be all over a lot of hands.

 

[Hallsome]

You hit the nail on the head. This is what's happening at the state and local level across the country. Legislation is being rammed through (not just in NJ) by the extremes of both parties to drive out moderates and create exclusive bubbles where everyone thinks the same way. It's quite scary.

Dangerous people like Phil Murphy (and Tag-Along Tammy) use their money and influence to get elected, then use the levers of political power to bully government into conforming to their personal beliefs. They do not represent the people of the state, only the extreme ends of the spectrum that rabidly support them.

Listen to CNN

A simplified quote last night there is that republicans are being unDemocratic by l; rejecting efforts to to get rid of filibuster, and by even debating their legislation/agenda

what ****ing planet is this?

 

[shu09]

Listen to CNN

A simplified quote last night there is that republicans are being unDemocratic by l; rejecting efforts to to get rid of filibuster, and by even debating their legislation/agenda

what ****ing planet is this?

When a country loses sight of its founding principles and abandons things that have worked in the past, it's only a matter of time before it fails.

 

[Section112]

Abortion is killing plain and simple. Liberals want to stand up for folks that are poor and have no power or say. That describes a baby in the womb to a T. I cannot judge people who have abortions but I sure as hell don't want to pay for it, encourage it or legalize abortion later than 3 months into a pregnancy. The actual abortion procedure is a brutal procedure and I believe those babies feel pain. It is killing and there are millions of babies each year that are aborted. Murphy and his band of libs are total scum.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

I never understood the party that fights for the rights of the smallest groups being okay murdering millions of helpless. It's so messed up.

 

[SHUSA]

I never understood the party that fights for the rights of the smallest groups being okay murdering millions of helpless. It's so messed up.

define murder? heyooo lets get this party started!!

jkjk. there is clearly a time and place for abortion and this bill doesnt touch on any of it. in fact seems like possibly the opposite.

 

[Pirata]

Shusa: Are you a parent?

 

[SHUSA]

Shusa: Are you a parent?

are you a rape victim? someone who passed on a bad terminal disease? etc.

 

[SHUSA]

Shusa: Are you a parent?

no. but i also agree this bill sucks.

 

[Pirata]

Have you ever held a 1 day old infant?

 

[Pirata]

The rape argument is lame. It is extremely rare and adoption can handle it. Adoption is more beneficial to the mother. The benefits to the child are more obvious.

 

[Hallsome]

The rape argument is lame. It is extremely rare and adoption can handle it. Adoption is more beneficial to the mother. The benefits to the child are more obvious.

I don’t agree with abortion but I likewise don’t agree with people who can’t care for a child having them and figuratively sticking me with a bill .... While I lean pro life in my heart I get the women’s choice/body thing totally

Back to real topic...fact remains is that this bill is more of the same....

book keeper runs from these threads

 

[SHUSA]

The rape argument is lame. It is extremely rare and adoption can handle it. Adoption is more beneficial to the mother. The benefits to the child are more obvious.

if its rare then why not make that the time and place? under certain months. foster life is awful for kids. this isnt a zero sum game.

why make a kid with severe terminal condition live a few years in agony?

moral isnt black and white

 

[Pirata]

if its rare then why not make that the time and place?

I do not understand what this means.

 

[SHUSA]

I do not understand what this means.

i said theres a time and place for it. aka specific situations. make the law reflect that. hell nj it was legal to buy weed only if you had glaucoma... (exagerrated) but same idea

 

[Pirata]

i said theres a time and place for it. aka specific situations. make the law reflect that. hell nj it was legal to buy weed only if you had glaucoma... (exagerrated) but same idea

In general, I agree with that.

I have since read the bill in question. It seemed to be more about insurance requirements I could not find where it is allowing for 9 month abortions. I did see on the last page of 47 pages it had:

"The bill would also repeal 22 the “Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1997,” sections 1 through 3 of 23 P.L.1997, c.262 (C.2A:65A-5 through C.2A:65A-7), and the 24 “Parental Notification for Abortion Act,” sections 2 through 13 of 25 P.L.1999, c.145 (C.9:17A-1.1 through C.9:17A-1.12),"

Is that where we get the nine months?

 

[sami]

In general, I agree with that.

I have since read the bill in question. It seemed to be more about insurance requirements I could not find where it is allowing for 9 month abortions. I did see where on the last pager of 47 pages it had:

"The bill would also repeal 22 the “Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1997,” sections 1 through 3 of 23 P.L.1997, c.262 (C.2A:65A-5 through C.2A:65A-7), and the 24 “Parental Notification for Abortion Act,” sections 2 through 13 of 25 P.L.1999, c.145 (C.9:17A-1.1 through C.9:17A-1.12),"

Is that where we get the nine months?

If that’s the case, then we can’t even get true facts posted that could form an opinion.

I’m for the right to choose, but damn that’s gotta be early. Week 23 is generally the point of viability. But even that is pretty late to be wavering. 1st trimester seems right to me with only critical cases (severe issues to fetus or mother) beyond that.

 

[Merge]

If that’s the case, then we can’t even get true facts posted that could form an opinion.

Yeah, I read the bill and a few articles about what the bill does from advocacy groups on both sides but it's still not entirely clear what the bill is doing. Hard to have an opinion on it at this point, other than seeing a few things I would probably disagree with.

I’m for the right to choose, but damn that’s gotta be early. Week 23 is generally the point of viability. But even that is pretty late to be wavering. 1st trimester seems right to me with only critical cases (severe issues to fetus or mother) beyond that.

I agree with that. After viability is clearly abhorrent, and instances after that point are rare. If you get to 20+ weeks, you probably aren't wavering at that point and assume you are having a child. After that point there was probably some kind of devastating news and is what happens from there between a woman and her doctor or between a woman a doctor and the state? There is a lot of nuance in those instances and the laws that are trying to be established.

 

[donnie_baseball]

If that’s the case, then we can’t even get true facts posted that could form an opinion.

I’m for the right to choose, but damn that’s gotta be early. Week 23 is generally the point of viability. But even that is pretty late to be wavering. 1st trimester seems right to me with only critical cases (severe issues to fetus or mother) beyond that.

So viability is your threshold, but a heartbeat, brain activity, and ability to feel pain* all occur in the first trimester.
*there is debate surrounding the sensation of pain

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

I

So viability is your threshold, but a heartbeat, brain activity, and ability to feel pain* all occur in the

It takes a special kind of person to kill their own kid.

 

[SHUSA]

I


It takes a special kind of person to kill their own kid.

or a very special, potentially tragic circumstance. which do exist.

youd rather force a child to live a life of nothing but pain. sounds kinda sick.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

or a very special, potentially tragic circumstance. which do exist.

youd rather force a child to live a life of nothing but pain. sounds kinda sick.

Those are rare circumstances. Theres no clear line for everything in life. Killing a baby because you had unprotected sex and cant deal with the consequences is sick.

 

[SHUSA]

Those are rare circumstances. Theres no clear line for everything in life. Killing a baby because you had unprotected sex and cant deal with the consequences is sick.

yes. but rare circumstances exist and it helps to recognize them.

 

[sami]

So viability is your threshold, but a heartbeat, brain activity, and ability to feel pain* all occur in the first trimester.
*there is debate surrounding the sensation of pain

No, I didn’t say that. Read my post again.

 

[donnie_baseball]

yes. but rare circumstances exist and it helps to recognize them.

They do, and before legalization in Ireland a couple of years back, they had allowances for those special circumstances.

In the US we now abort the large majority of fetuses with Down Syndrome. We had a cousin with it, and he lived a long and full life, and was a joy to his parents and siblings. Many of them are that way, but no one wants to be burdened.

 

[donnie_baseball]

No, I didn’t say that. Read my post again.

I apologize and meant to say that 1st trimester is your threshold. What if we knew that mutilating a 12-week old was torturing it?

 

[sami]

I apologize and meant to say that 1st trimester is your threshold. What if we knew that mutilating a 12-week old was torturing it?

While I would be unlikely to opt for it at that stage, I do believe it is a reasonable threshold for someone’s choice. As you point out, there is debate in exactly what is going on at week 12 but I fundamentally believe in choice. I think that choice needs to be decisive and early, legitimately within weeks of awareness.

After that point, I believe it’s only acceptable in the case of severe threat against the mother or fetus.

 

[Pirata]

there is debate in exactly what is going on at week 12

First Trimester (12 Weeks) Picture Image on MedicineNet.com

View a Picture of First Trimester (12 Weeks) and learn more about Pregnancy Stages.

www.medicinenet.com

 

[ed odowd]

Let’s face it the more strongly you push for no limits on abortion the more favorably you will be viewed by the democratic pols and particularly the far left.Murphy like Biden is catholic In name only who is constantly protected by liberal bishops and our liberal Pope.Being against open borders has replaced abortion as the number one issue in a number of Catholics view both priests and lay people.Some bishops have stated that they are concerned forthe souks of Biden and Pelosi but not clerics like Cardinal Tobin who still tell us abortion is a grave moral evil,but have no problem supporting a president who actively pushes abortion,has officiated at gay weddings,supports transgender policies etc. I guess because he believes supporting liberal wish lists is more important than condemning practices the church has found to be immoral.Like MSM covers for the dems these guys do the same on catholic issues.

 

[sami]

First Trimester (12 Weeks) Picture Image on MedicineNet.com

View a Picture of First Trimester (12 Weeks) and learn more about Pregnancy Stages.

www.medicinenet.com

Doesn’t change a thing I posted

 

[cernjSHU]

To those who think this is murder. To those who think it should be outlawed To what end? Are you ready to put in jail doctors and women for thirty years for an abortion? Because if you believe it’s murder, that is the criminal penalty. Do you want police and prosecutors to investigate these issues and take up time in court?

This has always been a moral issue and should stay there. This has no place in the criminal arena. It’s your views and others have other views. Live your life and answer to God at the end of your life.

 

[HALL85]

To those who think this is murder. To those who think it should be outlawed To what end? Are you ready to put in jail doctors and women for thirty years for an abortion? Because if you believe it’s murder, that is the criminal penalty. Do you want police and prosecutors to investigate these issues and take up time in court?

This has always been a moral issue and should stay there. This has no place in the criminal arena. It’s your views and others have other views. Live your life and answer to God at the end of your life.

That sounds all well and good, but that baby doesn’t get the chance to “live their life”. Why stop at these cases? We don’t seem to want to prosecute any criminal today.

 

[cernjSHU]

That sounds all well and good, but that baby doesn’t get the chance to “live their life”. Why stop at these cases? We don’t seem to want to prosecute any criminal today.

Why don’t you just answer the question?

 

[Pirata]

This has always been a moral issue and should stay there. This has no place in the criminal arena. It’s your views and others have other views. Live your life and answer to God at the end of your life.

I respect your opinion but don't agree. Also you being a lawyer doesn't give any more weight to your argument then somebody else's.

By your logic if you're leaving everything in God's hand then we don't need any laws. we can just go crazy all our lives and then let Him sort it out.

There are a lot of things we can do to help the plight of a mother who does not want a child. I don't think jabbing a scissor into the child's brain is one of them.