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Nurture vs Nature

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Nbnylon

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Apr 30, 2019
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We are starting to understand what we are and it shouldn’t come as a surprise because it’s pretty much what we’ve always been. A program with facilities that cannot compete with other programs and now the NIL.

We are a program that would consistently get the solid three star guys and some 4s but very very rarely the 5s.

We have been a program that has been successful nurturing those players rather than getting those guys with the natural ability. Player development has been what we hung our hats on and what are going to have to continue to do.

We also have to be a program that has to rely on continuity rather than the portal. Get the players and keep them. No better example than the USC v Utah championship game the other day. Utah has tons of guys that have been there forever v USC which has sold its soul to the portal. Utah crushed USC and is on its way to the Rose Bowl.

I don’t think Sha is going to change who we have been because we will have a tough time becoming that type of program.

I know this flat out sucks but give him time. We will be back!
 
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Sorry, you need talent. There has never been a successful Seton Hall team without 4 star recruits. Having a team with 3 stars won't cut it. Moreover, I am worried about Holloway's coaching ability. I don't like what I have seen so far. But he does deserve time.

Without us getting this NIL thing to be competitive, this is the end of Seton Hall Basketball.

Btw, how nice would it be that we had Jordan Walker here. He is only scoring 25 points a game and 42% from 3. I still don't know the story why he was kicked off the team. People say he deserved it, but what a difference maker he could have been for Seton Hall.
 
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SHU is a gated community in a small village with limited access and capacity to expand.
Alumni giving rate is anemic.
 
I am not saying we should go at it with 3 stars only. We have been a program of 3s and 4s. We will not be a team that 5 stars will consistently come to. Furthermore. It going to be harder to land 4s here with the NIL
 
Nbnylon said:
I am not saying we should go at it with 3 stars only. We have been a program of 3s and 4s. We will not be a team that 5 stars will consistently come to. Furthermore. It going to be harder to land 4s here with the NIL
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If we can't land 4 stars, we are a MAAC team and it's over here.
 
Not the ideal situation but not necessarily. There are 3s that with nurturing I’d take over some 5 star freshman. NZEI, Desi, Mamu they were all 3s and ended up being 4 year guys.
 
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SHU basketball is over. it was a good run. but i seriously think its essentially finished. the new ncaa has no place for teams without money.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Btw, how nice would it be that we had Jordan Walker here. He is only scoring 25 points a game and 42% from 3. I still don't know the story why he was kicked off the team. People say he deserved it, but what a difference maker he could have been for Seton Hall.
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The only way Jordan Walker would still be here would be if he had sat out a year along the way. His redshirt transfer year from SHU to Tulane is the reason he is still at UAB.

Also while he's posting big numbers this year -- and has had a nice college career -- Alabama State, Toledo, Presbyterian, South Florida, Georgia, Rhodes and Jacksonville is not exactly a murderer's row schedule.
 
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Let’s not forget that Sha decided to utilize the national attention he was getting because of SP’s run to the elite 8 and made a high risk , high reward decision to go after the higher rated four and five star players which , we know, didn’t pan out.
 
SHUSA said:
NIL and only NIL
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Is NIL radically different than what has happened in the past? What about football NIL? They are now pretty much through their first year.

Also the recruiting seems similar to the last time Sha was here when we went after a lot of big time recruits to “get close” and KW not get it done..maybe that wasn’t what was going on
 
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A lot went into those recruits not coming here. Facilities, Mr. Green showing up at doorsteps, etc. NIL is just making it even harder
 
williaza01 said:
Is NIL radically different than what has happened in the past? What about football NIL? They are now pretty much through their first year.

Also the recruiting seems similar to the last time Sha was here when we went after a lot of big time recruits to “get close” and KW not get it done..maybe that wasn’t what was going on
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yea its different
 
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williaza01 said:
How? You know that for a fact? What about football?
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Why is this such a difficult concept to understand, that it is different?

Prior to NIL, you needed to have a bag man that would allow you buy recruits. It was illegal and you had to have people willing to do shady things to help you get those players. I have no concrete proof, but it’s interesting that we were able to land big time recruits under Amaker, before our notorious donors all got sent to the big house.

With NIL it is all above board at the moment. Yes the biggest donors can help move the needle as always, but now it can be all hands on deck. A collective allows everyone to get involved and donate money to the pot specifically for recruiting to the sport of their choice. Our alumni numbers in terms of sheer graduates come NOWHERE close to the amount of potential donors other schools have.

So for example if every Rutgers alum were to give $100 compared to the same $100 every alum SHU out there, we would be crushed in terms of the size of the pot. It’s a numbers game now and we are completely out manned. The SHU Marketplace is a nice gesture in theory, but is not what is taking place.

Sha said in an interview the first thing the kids ask for now is “how much money can you GIVE me”. They aren’t asking how much can I get to attend a picnic or sign an autograph. “HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE ME”. It’s a direct pay for play and we don’t have the numbers to keep up. Also if you listened in full to the Loughlin interview of Felt. Felt said, “I can not tell a kid how much we can Pay them directly, that is not how NIL works” so our approach is much different than everyone else. We are already behind and will be light years behind when the dust settles.

I don’t like it, I don’t condone it, it is going to ruin college athletics, and it’s going to destroy something I love. But to pretend it’s the same as what it was is being beyond naive. To think Kevin Willard being here instead would have altered the path we are on is also a lack of comprehension as to what is taking place. Willard knew what was coming. He smartly found an opportunity to coach at a program that was going to better align with this seismic change.
 
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so NIL is dependent on alumni size? Michigan alumni dwarf in size to Oh St alumni and that doesn’t seem to matter.

Was it difficult for Kansas Duke Syracuse UNC Louisville etc to find bag men all these years?

I agree with you it’s more difficult but idk who is being naive
 
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LeftCoastPirates said:
Why is this such a difficult concept to understand, that it is different?

Prior to NIL, you needed to have a bag man that would allow you buy recruits. It was illegal and you had to have people willing to do shady things to help you get those players. I have no concrete proof, but it’s interesting that we were able to land big time recruits under Amaker, before our notorious donors all got sent to the big house.

With NIL it is all above board at the moment. Yes the biggest donors can help move the needle as always, but now it can be all hands on deck. A collective allows everyone to get involved and donate money to the pot specifically for recruiting to the sport of their choice. Our alumni numbers in terms of sheer graduates come NOWHERE close to the amount of potential donors other schools have.

So for example if every Rutgers alum were to give $100 compared to the same $100 every alum SHU out there, we would be crushed in terms of the size of the pot. It’s a numbers game now and we are completely out manned. The SHU Marketplace is a nice gesture in theory, but is not what is taking place.

Sha said in an interview the first thing the kids ask for now is “how much money can you GIVE me”. They aren’t asking how much can I get to attend a picnic or sign an autograph. “HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE ME”. It’s a direct pay for play and we don’t have the numbers to keep up. Also if you listened in full to the Loughlin interview of Felt. Felt said, “I can not tell a kid how much we can Pay them directly, that is not how NIL works” so our approach is much different than everyone else. We are already behind and will be light years behind when the dust settles.

I don’t like it, I don’t condone it, it is going to ruin college athletics, and it’s going to destroy something I love. But to pretend it’s the same as what it was is being beyond naive. To think Kevin Willard being here instead would have altered the path we are on is also a lack of comprehension as to what is taking place. Willard knew what was coming. He smartly found an opportunity to coach at a program that was going to better align with this seismic change.
Click to expand...
Also I agree 100% about KW being here doesn’t matter. But that goes both ways. To say KW was the reason we couldn’t recruit and he “couldn’t close” isn’t/wasn’t fair either
 
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williaza01 said:
Is NIL radically different than what has happened in the past? What about football NIL? They are now pretty much through their first year.
Click to expand...
Yes have you been following at all? It will radically change the college football market this offseason.
 
cernjSHU said:
Sorry, you need talent. There has never been a successful Seton Hall team without 4 star recruits. Having a team with 3 stars won't cut it. Moreover, I am worried about Holloway's coaching ability. I don't like what I have seen so far. But he does deserve time.

Without us getting this NIL thing to be competitive, this is the end of Seton Hall Basketball.

Btw, how nice would it be that we had Jordan Walker here. He is only scoring 25 points a game and 42% from 3. I still don't know the story why he was kicked off the team. People say he deserved it, but what a difference maker he could have been for Seton Hall.
Click to expand...
 
shufan199_3 said:
Yes have you been following at all? It will radically change the college football market this offseason.
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Ugh it hasn’t at all. 2 of the top 5 NIL spending programs were A&M and Miami both had abysmal seasons. It’s about 50/50. Out of the top 10 NIL programs 5 are in the AP top 10
 
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LeftCoastPirates said:
Why is this such a difficult concept to understand, that it is different?

Prior to NIL, you needed to have a bag man that would allow you buy recruits. It was illegal and you had to have people willing to do shady things to help you get those players. I have no concrete proof, but it’s interesting that we were able to land big time recruits under Amaker, before our notorious donors all got sent to the big house.

With NIL it is all above board at the moment. Yes the biggest donors can help move the needle as always, but now it can be all hands on deck. A collective allows everyone to get involved and donate money to the pot specifically for recruiting to the sport of their choice. Our alumni numbers in terms of sheer graduates come NOWHERE close to the amount of potential donors other schools have.

So for example if every Rutgers alum were to give $100 compared to the same $100 every alum SHU out there, we would be crushed in terms of the size of the pot. It’s a numbers game now and we are completely out manned. The SHU Marketplace is a nice gesture in theory, but is not what is taking place.

Sha said in an interview the first thing the kids ask for now is “how much money can you GIVE me”. They aren’t asking how much can I get to attend a picnic or sign an autograph. “HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE ME”. It’s a direct pay for play and we don’t have the numbers to keep up. Also if you listened in full to the Loughlin interview of Felt. Felt said, “I can not tell a kid how much we can Pay them directly, that is not how NIL works” so our approach is much different than everyone else. We are already behind and will be light years behind when the dust settles.

I don’t like it, I don’t condone it, it is going to ruin college athletics, and it’s going to destroy something I love. But to pretend it’s the same as what it was is being beyond naive. To think Kevin Willard being here instead would have altered the path we are on is also a lack of comprehension as to what is taking place. Willard knew what was coming. He smartly found an opportunity to coach at a program that was going to better align with this seismic change.
Click to expand...
Felt is correct. The guidelines published by the NCAA in October basically said the school can be a conduit to market opportunities and offer some support to the players to explore such for NIL, but cannot be the one managing where the students get paid. Sure it's important the school positions itself favorably with the NIL concept, but nobody is relying on their Administrations for this.

Our problem is MONEY from the outside. We have none. I don't know if the constant stalls on the new practice facility are an attempt to divert funds, but we're in a bad spot. Lyons, Felt, and the SHU Administration can dance in the weeds about structuring an NIL Marketplace or whatever, but until you have big time donations funneled into this we will not compete and we will not sign good recruits.

Holloway put a TON of work in with highly-regarded recruits. But had no money, so no chance. Who is going to turn the money down for a coach? Maybe 1/100?
 
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Frustrating to accept that Seton Hall is in a rebuilding phase but thats where we are. High 3 low 4 star kids is where we’re at. Gotta find rock solid kids who are willing to be coached and understand they need time to develop.

Never really understood Sha going after top 50 guys anyway they don’t fit his style. This is a blue collar program that needs to embrace blue collar kids.

Sandro was a 3 star recruit. Khadeen was a 3 star recruit. Find the kids who fit the physical profile, culture profile and need skill refinement.
 
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Gritty5837 said:
Frustrating to accept that Seton Hall is in a rebuilding phase but thats where we are. High 3 low 4 star kids is where we’re at. Gotta find rock solid kids who are willing to be coached and understand they need time to develop.

Never really understood Sha going after top 50 guys anyway they don’t fit his style. This is a blue collar program that needs to embrace blue collar kids.

Sandro was a 3 star recruit. Khadeen was a 3 star recruit. Find the kids who fit the physical profile, culture profile and need skill refinement.
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As were Rhoden and Enzi. Desi was like a 2 star.
 
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It's really awful how NIL is changing the college world of sports as now it's turning into how much money can be forked over compared to other schools, resulting with recruits. So it's now paying to play rather than education. That's why no matter what happens to the score, I am proud of our team and just hope they give their best. Hopefully on the winning side of the score, but really is not a level playing field.
 
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Again how is nil changed really anything THAT much?

Oh Kentucky Duke Kansas and UNC have great recruits?! That’s new?

Georgia Texas and LSU football?

It seems to have slightly altered things and we were way behind and got caught

I’m going to say Sha has a little responsibility too did he think he was going to sway Baye and Diop? Can he not read a room? Is he too confident in himself. If NIL has made it impossible for us why did he put so much time and effort into them?
 
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williaza01 said:
Again how is nil changed really anything THAT much?

Oh Kentucky Duke Kansas and UNC have great recruits?! That’s new?

Georgia Texas and LSU football?

It seems to have slightly altered things and we were way behind and got caught

I’m going to say Sha has a little responsibility too did he think he was going to sway Baye and Diop? Can he not read a room? Is he too confident in himself. If NIL has made it impossible for us why did he put so much time and effort into them?
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you keep trying to push this narrative after being told extensively that it HAS changed the landscape by a lot.
 
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SHUSA said:
you keep trying to push this narrative after being told extensively that it HAS changed the landscape by a lot.
Click to expand...
How? What about college athletics right now is different other than SHU being behind (we have always been behind)

BTW when are those “big dogs” coming to steal sha?
 
shu09 said:
Because it's out in the open now. ANY player can request (and get) a bag, not just the top guys.
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You think only top guys were asking for perks? Who is a top guy? Look at the 2023 ESPN rankings how is that different than any other year. Rutgers has a top 50 player and they have extremely weak NIL..how did that happen?!

If anyone could yell it’s Nova. We NEVER recruit at a high level. We have been embarrassingly behind the times for twenty years.
 
LeftCoastPirates said:
Prior to NIL, you needed to have a bag man that would allow you buy recruits. It was illegal and you had to have people willing to do shady things to help you get those players. I have no concrete proof, but it’s interesting that we were able to land big time recruits under Amaker, before our notorious donors all got sent to the big house.

With NIL it is all above board at the moment. Yes the biggest donors can help move the needle as always, but now it can be all hands on deck. A collective allows everyone to get involved and donate money to the pot specifically for recruiting to the sport of their choice. Our alumni numbers in terms of sheer graduates come NOWHERE close to the amount of potential donors other schools have.

So for example if every Rutgers alum were to give $100 compared to the same $100 every alum SHU out there, we would be crushed in terms of the size of the pot. It’s a numbers game now and we are completely out manned. The SHU Marketplace is a nice gesture in theory, but is not what is taking place.

Sha said in an interview the first thing the kids ask for now is “how much money can you GIVE me”. They aren’t asking how much can I get to attend a picnic or sign an autograph. “HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE ME”. It’s a direct pay for play and we don’t have the numbers to keep up. Also if you listened in full to the Loughlin interview of Felt. Felt said, “I can not tell a kid how much we can Pay them directly, that is not how NIL works” so our approach is much different than everyone else. We are already behind and will be light years behind when the dust settles.

I don’t like it, I don’t condone it, it is going to ruin college athletics, and it’s going to destroy something I love. But to pretend it’s the same as what it was is being beyond naive. To think Kevin Willard being here instead would have altered the path we are on is also a lack of comprehension as to what is taking place. Willard knew what was coming. He smartly found an opportunity to coach at a program that was going to better align with this seismic change.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting before NIL the first thing kids were asking wasn’t how much can you give me? There’s a bunch of bridges for sale, how many do you want? Yes now it is direct pay for play because NIL can be manipulated but it’s always been pay for play with the man with a bag of money. So the number of people involved is greater. We’re really not complaining about the game changing we’re upset the number of people now participating in the game is greater. Call the whambulance. Does this hurt Seton Hall? Absolutely. However this is the game now we got 2 choices, play it or cry about it. We have be innovators and creative. Face the facts our alum base contributes as much as the big man projects have contributed over the years, once in a while something good happens but overall we try our best but we have major limitations. I think everyone here has tried their best to give to the program. That’s just the way it is. We might be best to have a real business man with real business connections on staff who may no zilch about basketball but who can get us in with car dealerships, popular restaurants, larger local chain stores in any industry, and any company who has headquarters in northern jersey. I don’t have the answers but I don’t want to just accept the fact we are doomed for bottom of the big east which I get the sense of from most people here. I hope we become innovators for how teams with little resources can get players and make the tournament.

As for Willard that guy left because someone offered him over 4 mil a year. It was a no brainer whether that school had resources or not. Good for him. If coaches stay a decade and other schools want to pay them big money, it most likely means they did really well here.
 
Last edited:
SHUHoopsFan said:
Are you suggesting before NIL the first thing kids were asking wasn’t how much can you give me? There’s a bunch of bridges for sale, how many do you want? Yes now it is direct pay for play because NIL can be manipulated but it’s always been pay for play with the man with a bag of money. So the number of people involved is greater. We’re really not complaining about the game changing we’re upset the number of people now participating in the game is greater. Call the whambulance. Does this hurt Seton Hall? Absolutely. However this is the game now we got 2 choices, play it or cry about it. We have be innovators and creative. Face the facts our alum base contributes as much as the big man projects have contributed over the years, once in a while something good happens but overall we try our best but we have major limitations. I think everyone here has tried their best to give to the program. That’s just the way it is. We might be best to have a real business man with real business connections on staff who may no zilch about basketball but who can get us in with car dealerships, popular restaurants, larger local chain stores in any industry, and any company who has headquarters in northern jersey. I don’t have the answers but I don’t want to just accept the fact we are doomed for bottom of the big east which I get the sense of from most people here. I hope we become innovators for how teams with little resources can get players and make the tournament.

As for Willard that guy left because someone offered him over 4 mil a year. It was a no brainer whether that school had resources or not. Good for him. If coaches stay a decade and other schools want to pay them big money, it most likely means they did really well here.
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Yes we are absolutely complaining about the number of people involved.

I am no fool. We have clearly paid for our players prior to Willard, during Willard, and we will pay for them post Willard.

People can pretend that it didn’t happen if they want. The issue is the cost to play has just increased exponentially. It like sitting at a poker table where the buy in was $500 and you sit down with $100 and scrap and claw your way to hang with the big stacks. Except now the big stacks now have $10,000 and you are still sitting there with $100. Good luck. Let me know how that lottery ticket pans out. Previously the gap maybe have been close enough where from time to time we stood a fighting chance to put a competitive product on the court. Now, it will be a pipe dream.

Some programs will use this new playing field to their advantage and others will not. Not trying to be a pessimist, but I feel we will be on the side that doesn’t not prosper with the new set of rules.

And you should be the one buying a bridge. There is ZERO value for any local business to invest in Seton Hall basketball to the extent that we need to compete. An 18 year old kid who is a 3-4 star kid that we can’t even get anymore is not selling cars, or driving patrons to a restaurant, or selling more merchandise for a chain store in North Jersey, with the marketing value they bring. What Seton Hall needs are wealthy fans of Seton Hall mens basketball that have so much stupid disposable money that they can be a booster for paying players directly. If we had that already we wouldn’t have lost players like Sanogo, Duvall, or Anderson. What I fear now is we can’t even afford a Powell, Sandro, Cale, or Rhoden.

This is called capitalism and typically the gap between the haves and have nots will grow larger and larger as time goes by.
 
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LeftCoastPirates said:
Yes we are absolutely complaining about the number of people involved.

I am no fool. We have clearly paid for our players prior to Willard, during Willard, and we will pay for them post Willard.

People can pretend that it didn’t happen if they want. The issue is the cost to play has just increased exponentially. It like sitting at a poker table where the buy in was $500 and you sit down with $100 and scrap and claw your way to hang with the big stacks. Except now the big stacks now have $10,000 and you are still sitting there with $100. Good luck. Let me know how that lottery ticket pans out. Previously the gap maybe have been close enough where from time to time we stood a fighting chance to put a competitive product on the court. Now, it will be a pipe dream.

Some programs will use this new playing field to their advantage and others will not. Not trying to be a pessimist, but I feel we will be on the side that doesn’t not prosper with the new set of rules.

And you should be the one buying a bridge. There is ZERO value for any local business to invest in Seton Hall basketball to the extent that we need to compete. An 18 year old kid who is a 3-4 star kid that we can’t even get anymore is not selling cars, or driving patrons to a restaurant, or selling more merchandise for a chain store in North Jersey, with the marketing value they bring. What Seton Hall needs are wealthy fans of Seton Hall mens basketball that have so much stupid disposable money that they can be a booster for paying players directly. If we had that already we wouldn’t have lost players like Sanogo, Duvall, or Anderson. What I fear now is we can’t even afford a Powell, Sandro, Cale, or Rhoden.

This is called capitalism and typically the gap between the haves and have nots will grow larger and larger as time goes by.
Click to expand...
We are 10 minutes from the Mecca of the business world. Many of the local businesses happen to be national brands that have headquarters in Jersey City all the way to Montvale. If you want the big time players get connected with the right people. Get connected with the people with headquarters locally like Merck, IDT, Prudential, ADP, Panasonic, etc. Those companies have no value to invest in getting connected with top talent? Figure out how Calipari and FedEx were able to work so well together and do the same with one or multiple companies located in NJ.

This is America I sure as hell hope we stick with capitalism. The haves and the have nots were already separated. You had the P6 and basically everyone else. A school like Boston U couldn’t compete with UConn. Now they can if they so choose. As much as you want to center this whole NIL issue around the world of Seton Hall, this can help many schools too. Many schools who didn’t previously invest in sports can now have alums and businesses get them to the top quickly. It’s going to be interesting. Now you don’t need to be part of the arms race of faculties. I’d rather see players get money than every university spending $50 mil on a players dorm or spa or this kind of facility or that kind of facility.
 
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Seton Hall alumni/boosters do the best they can but they cannot compete with what Ross does for Michigan sports or a guy like, for example, Matthew Mcougney does for Texas athletics. Schools in the SEC, etc don’t have alumni/ donors that are fans, they are fanatics and a good deal of them are very wealthy.
 
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