OT- All-Star Game Old Timers

[400SOAVE]

I'm not an overly emontional dude.

But when I saw the great Joe Morgan slowly walk on the field in Cincinnati with the help of a cane, I have to say that I had to hold back.

And then later during the first pitch, it was the same thing- Aaron, Mays, Bench and Sandy Koufax, who definitley reminded of my late brother-in-law who grew up in southern California and saw Koufax.

I've seen many Old Timers Day festivities in the past. I don't why this one just hit me.

I wonder if anybody else felt the same way.

 

[BucBloc]

Agreed- I was a Big Red Machine fan and a huge Pete Rose fan, so seeing Rose, Bench and Morgan touched a nerve. And Aaron, Mays and Koufax...wow. Very well done.
Outside of Koufax, who I just missed as a kid, this was the all star team of my childhood.

 

[hinson32]

Being a Reds fan and a Rutgers guy this has been a great AS event.

 

[SnakeTom]

Jacob deGrom. 10 pitches 9 strikes and not even one foul ball off him.

Regarding the all time greats. nicely done. PS: Willie Mays is the greatest player that I have ever seen, bar none.

Tom K

 

[HallLine69]

Jacob deGrom. 10 pitches 9 strikes and not even one foul ball off him.

Regarding the all time greats. nicely done. PS: Willie Mays is the greatest player that I have ever seen, bar none.

Tom K

Bingo on deGrom and double bingo on Willie. I met him once in person --at a men's clothing store in Orange, NJ in the early 70's --and it was one of the great thrills of my life.

 

[bobojcd]

I also enjoyed the pre-game moments with the games greats.

However, I'm wondering why Yogi Berras invitation to appear as one of the four all-time great living players was sent to Johnny Benchs house? They're both catchers, Last names start B-E, must have been a clerical error, because I can't possibly come up with any other reason why Bench would be out there over Berra (or Griffey or Henderson or about a dozen other dudes if you want to include steroid abusers).

 

[SnakeTom]

Probably because of Yogi's health at present. Yogi was a great player, but I would not downgrade Bench to make the point. No question they are the two greatest living catchers and both are probably top 5 all time.

TK

 

[bobojcd]

I don't mean to knock Bench. Bench was awesome, I was just ticked at no Yogi.

Having done some research on how the four were selected I realize the blame lies with MLB, not the fans who voted. MLB came up with 8 candidates, current health was NOT considered (although I find that hard to believe- they wanted the winners to show up). The 8 were Mays, Aaron, Koufax, Bench, Henderson, Bonds, Seaver, and Pedro.

So really what they announced last night wasn't the four greatest living players, it was the four greatest players out of this list of eight really really good players.

And FWIW, it's really hard to group pitchers in with everyday players. Who's better, Pedro or Rickey? Seaver or Aaron? Steve Carlton or Mike Schmidt? It really is apples and oranges. And where does Mariano fit? Circa '99 I wouldn't have traded him for anyone in the bigs.

 

[SnakeTom]

Who are the 5 greatest catchers ever? In no special order baseball historians will put Mickey Cochrane on the list (well before my time) , Berra & Roy Campanella each with 3 MVP awards, Johnny Bench with 2 MVP's and Mike Piazza who holds just about every batting record for Catchers. How much does defense count or is it just hitting. If you count "D" Piazza and Berra drop a little but still make the top 5 overall because they were such great hitters. Campanella & Bench were superior defensive catchers as well as great hitters.

Tom K.

 

[400SOAVE]

I read some time ago that Yogi is in a nursing home.

He was a key part of 10 World Series championship teams. He has to be in the top 3.

 

[SnakeTom]

I read some time ago that Yogi is in a nursing home.

.

That's what I was alluding to. I'm sure that is why he was not at the festivities.

TK

 

[JIMSOULS]

I used to be irritated by that anti-Joe Morgan the Broadcaster website. Morgan would approach telecasts with such enthusiasm for the game it was contagious. I'd say he also knows a thing or two about the game. Baseball needed someone like that at the time, and could use that now. His love for the game was a joy to listen to, yet these people did their part to spread the hate. Sad.

 

[Seton75]

Agreed- I was a Big Red Machine fan and a huge Pete Rose fan, so seeing Rose, Bench and Morgan touched a nerve. And Aaron, Mays and Koufax...wow. Very well done.
Outside of Koufax, who I just missed as a kid, this was the all star team of my childhood.

I am a Dodger fan. And I am actually not sure I would pick Sandy due to the briefness of his greatness. I think I would pick sending Yogi instead.

 

[400SOAVE]

I used to be irritated by that anti-Joe Morgan the Broadcaster website. Morgan would approach telecasts with such enthusiasm for the game it was contagious. I'd say he also knows a thing or two about the game. Baseball needed someone like that at the time, and could use that now. His love for the game was a joy to listen to, yet these people did their part to spread the hate. Sad.

I never heard of this about Morgan. Why? Some people are ridiculous.

It's like people who don't like Tim McCarver as an analyst.

The guy was simply the best analyst ever. I have never seen anybody so consistently predict what was going to happen before it happened. He was amazing. MCCarver was also very honest when players failed to apply baseball fundatmentals. That's why the Mets canned him. He was not going to be their little punk. I would have loved to see him manage.

 

[SnakeTom]

I never heard of this about Morgan. Why? Some people are ridiculous.

It's like people who don't like Tim McCarver as an analyst.

The guy was simply the best analyst ever. I have never seen anybody so consistently predict what was going to happen before it happened. He was amazing. MCCarver was also very honest when players failed to apply baseball fundatmentals. That's why the Mets canned him. He was not going to be their little punk. I would have loved to see him manage.

I agree with you about Tim McCarver. I think he was the absolute best. He would give incites to the game that I had never thought of. And most important he was never a "homer" for what ever team currently employed him.

Tom K

 

[400SOAVE]

I agree with you about Tim McCarver. I think he was the absolute best. He would give incites to the game that I had never thought of. And most important he was never a "homer" for what ever team currently employed him.

Tom K

Yes, exactly. His comments showed what a baseball mind he had. It was like listening to a baseball academy lecture every game, yet he was entertaining. The guy just understood what needed to be done in every baseball situation. He did not speculate. He would say what should be done and what was about to happen.

He also had tons of great stories and anecdotes. I believe McCarver was a four-decade man.

 

[JIMSOULS]

I never heard of this about Morgan. Why? Some people are ridiculous.

It's like people who don't like Tim McCarver as an analyst.

The guy was simply the best analyst ever. I have never seen anybody so consistently predict what was going to happen before it happened. He was amazing. MCCarver was also very honest when players failed to apply baseball fundatmentals. That's why the Mets canned him. He was not going to be their little punk. I would have loved to see him manage.

People forget what a groundbreaker McCarver was in baseball broadcasting. Before he came along, announcers didn't analyze and guess strategy like he did. His going over various strategic options and explaining why he would make a particular move brought viewers closer to the game. It was fun and changed things for the better. He would say the outfield is playing to deep and "Bingo," a base hit in front of the left fielder. It would tick managers off but that's not who McCarver was there for. He was there for us. McCarver pumped new life into Kiner when Ralph really needed it. I have defended McCarver quite a bit over the years, even though I'm not a Mets fan. At his peak he was the best analyst in the business.

Here is a link to the old Fire Joe Morgan blog. Pathetic. It's beyond sad that someone would have done this. Then to gloat over the blog's popularity after the great team of Miller and Morgan is let go. Morgan would seem to not have a vicious bone in his body. If you can bear to read the comments section they came after McCarver as well. Joyless people.

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/

 

[Seton75]

Yankee fans thought Morgan was out to get them...boohoo

 

[hinson32]

As Sparky Anderson once said. "I don't want to embarrass any other catcher by comparing them to John Bench"

 

[JIMSOULS]

Piazza could obviously hit, but 1,400 stolen bases against with only 23% caught is horrendous. I was surprised to discover that Gary Carter gave up more (1498) though his percentage (35%) was better. Pudge Rodriguez caught many more games than either yet gave up just 786 while throwing out 46%. There's more to being a catcher than throwing out base stealers, but Rodriguez controlled that aspect of the game for his entire career while also hitting .296. He should be on an the short list of great catchers.

 

[lloyde dobler]

Joe Morgan was known to talk about stuff in the broadcast booth from his playing days that was pure fiction. That eventually comes back to haunt you.

Regarding Yogi, he lives in a nursing home in Caldwell and rarely comes out of his room. He's had a tremendous run, but he's approaching the finish line. Couple that with the fact that the game was in Cincinnati, add in the reality that it was all subjective and that MLB was involved in the process, and you find that there's no question that Johnny Bench's selection was automatic.

 

[HallLine69]

I never heard of this about Morgan. Why? Some people are ridiculous.

It's like people who don't like Tim McCarver as an analyst.

The guy was simply the best analyst ever. I have never seen anybody so consistently predict what was going to happen before it happened. He was amazing. MCCarver was also very honest when players failed to apply baseball fundatmentals. That's why the Mets canned him. He was not going to be their little punk. I would have loved to see him manage.

Count me as a McCarver fan and a Joe Morgan fan as well. They were both excellent in the broadcast booth.

 

[JIMSOULS]

lloyde, there is no reason to create a blog to make fun of someone. The guys who did that are idiots.

 

[lloyde dobler]

I'm not talking about any anti-Joe Morgan blog. It was documented in plenty of places that he made up stuff that was proven to be untrue (putting it kindly). And he was also one of those announcers (Dan Dierdorf was another big-time offender) who would never admit he was wrong when a replay totally refuted what he had just said. It's okay for announcer to say that he was wrong with his immediate analysis. Some of them just can't admit to it.

 

[bobojcd]

Piazza could obviously hit, but 1,400 stolen bases against with only 23% caught is horrendous. I was surprised to discover that Gary Carter gave up more (1498) though his percentage (35%) was better. Pudge Rodriguez caught many more games than either yet gave up just 786 while throwing out 46%. There's more to being a catcher than throwing out base stealers, but Rodriguez controlled that aspect of the game for his entire career while also hitting .296. He should be on an the short list of great catchers.

Not to disagree with any of your conclusions, but raw totals of stolen bases against is pretty meaningless. Compare stolen base attempt numbers in the NL in the '80s and in the AL in the 2000s, it's night and day. This explains why Carter gave up SO many more than Pudge, there were simply more people trying to steal against him. So, as stolen bases came into and fell out of style, your raw numbers for catchers throwing them out would vary greatly.

That being said, percentage is meaningful, and Ivan Rodriguez absolutely belongs in any discussion of the games great backstops.

 

[Piratz]

Yogi Berra wasn't even included on the all-time list of the 8 greatest living players? Really?

He was better than Johnny Bench, IMO, although that's a age-old debate and is damn close.

Berra hit .285/.348/.482 (.830 OPS) and was a 3x MVP over 19 seasons. As a catcher he had .989 fielding % and threw out 49% of opposing base runners attempting to steal (league average was 45% over that time).

Bench hit .267/.342/.476 (.817 OPS) and was a 2x MVP over 17 seasons. As a catcher he had a .990 fielding % and threw out 43% of opposing base runners attempting to steal (league average was 35% over that time).

So edge to Bench defensively and edge to Berra offensively maybe. Really close.