OT: Baseball HOF

[shu09]

I know there are a bunch of baseball fans on this board so I wanted to see what others are thinking about this.

Scott Rolen was elected yesterday. Very good player, but not a great one. Feels like the writers just wanted to elect someone for the sake of having a ceremony this summer. I've always thought the HOF should be an elite, selective group. Only reserved for the best of the best. That doesn't mean every good player should get in. In fact, many shouldn't even be on the ballot.

In my opinion, there are too many candidates on the ballot but too much prejudice among the voters. In recent years we have had players like Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, sure-fire HOFers by any definition, rejected due to the prejudice amongst the baseball writers. We all know the reasons why, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Then to see a guy like Rolen get in, or Todd Helton/Billy Wagner (they're next, likely in 2024 or 2025), kind of irks me. All very good players, but not worthy of Cooperstown in my view. You have players still on the current ballot that, similar to the three I mentioned above, should be in the HOF - Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. Two of the greatest hitters to ever play the game. The fact that they used steroids is a bridge too far for most writers, but then I have to ask why does Gary Sheffield get about 20% more of the vote than them? He was on the juice too. The whole process is out of whack.

 

[Bud Boomer]

Agree. I wouldn’t exclude the steroid users, but I understand the thought process. Substituting their induction with middling all stars is stupid IMO.

 

[williaza01]

I know there are a bunch of baseball fans on this board so I wanted to see what others are thinking about this.

Scott Rolen was elected yesterday. Very good player, but not a great one. Feels like the writers just wanted to elect someone for the sake of having a ceremony this summer. I've always thought the HOF should be an elite, selective group. Only reserved for the best of the best. That doesn't mean every good player should get in. In fact, many shouldn't even be on the ballot.

In my opinion, there are too many candidates on the ballot but too much prejudice among the voters. In recent years we have had players like Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, sure-fire HOFers by any definition, rejected due to the prejudice amongst the baseball writers. We all know the reasons why, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Then to see a guy like Rolen get in, or Todd Helton/Billy Wagner (they're next, likely in 2024 or 2025), kind of irks me. All very good players, but not worthy of Cooperstown in my view. You have players still on the current ballot that, similar to the three I mentioned above, should be in the HOF - Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. Two of the greatest hitters to ever play the game. The fact that they used steroids is a bridge too far for most writers, but then I have to ask why does Gary Sheffield get about 20% more of the vote than them? He was on the juice too. The whole process is out of whack.

I’m not a Rolen fan per se..not sure he’s better than Rollins, Kent or Jones..which is your point the voting is all over the map.

On the other side…it’s still incredibly hard to be voted in traditionally by the writers..they are very stingy and most HoFers are voted in by committees..with very questionable decisions

 

[cernjSHU]

The Hall of Fame is watered down. It should be for the very great and the great player who lasted a long time.
Scott Roland had some nice years for sure. 1988 when he hit .290, 31 HR, 110 RBI. 1999 to 2002 he had some nice years. Then he has a great year in 2004, .314, 34 HR 124 RBI's. That is his monster year and best year where he came in 4th in MVP. Never won an MVP or batting title, 6 yr Golden Glove, 7 yr all-Star. Lifetime stats are BA.281, 316 HR and 1287 RBI and over 2000 hits. He was never a dominant player.

You compare him to Mattingly who was a dominant player for 6 years. He won the MVP and was in the running another 4 years. He won a batting title, 9 years gold glove. I would have Matttingly in before a Scott Roland.

 

[hbkmyr]

In the words of Mike Fransceca…Rolen is a compiler.

 

[CT Pirate]

In the words of Mike Fransceca…Rolen is a compiler.

Complier might even be a stretch. A good player not even very good. Watered down Hall. Played 19 seasons and had 2.077 hits. The math doesn't add up. Only four seasons over 100 rbi's.

 

[williaza01]

I don’t disagree with any of you..but you’re listing stats 80% of the voters don’t even consider anymore

 

[Belluno]

Never heard of him until now, just to show how little interest I have in sports nowadays. But I do remember Puddin' head Jones, Pinky Higgins, Frank Malzone, Billy Cox, Andy Carey, and Hank Thompson who all played third with middlin' success

 

[shu09]

I don’t disagree with any of you..but you’re listing stats 80% of the voters don’t even consider anymore

Maybe that's the problem.

 

[williaza01]

Maybe that's the problem.

There is also the problem of how much harder it is to get into the hof for modern players…no simple answers

 

[SHUHitman]

I mean, statistically speaking, he's a Top 10 3B all-time. His career WAR is at 70, which would rank him in the Top 100 of all-time in the sport as well (not just the HOF).

Does he belong in a "legends" wing, if there were such a thing? No, but he has certainly achieved the requisite statistical success to deem him worthy of induction. I think there is approximately 275 players in the HOF currently? That would put him squarely in the Top 40% of the population, which is comfortably in.

I think he loses optics points because he didn't have the massive postseason accolades of a Derek Jeter type, nor did he play for a franchise with big media appeal, or a huge national fanbase.

Classic case of a guy that should be like the 4th most important inductee in a given class, not the first and only. It's less about him and more about how we have generational talents withheld from induction for all the reasons many of us are divided on

 

[shu09]

There is also the problem of how much harder it is to get into the hof for modern players…no simple answers

Don't strike out 200 times? Maybe hit better than .240? LOL.

But we won't know the answer for maybe a decade or more. "Modern" players are still playing or very recently retired and then have the 5 year waiting period to get on the ballot.

 

[williaza01]

Don't strike out 200 times? Maybe hit better than .240? LOL.

But we won't know the answer for maybe a decade or more. "Modern" players are still playing or very recently retired and then have the 5 year waiting period to get on the ballot.

No I’m referring to the majorly of the HoF playing before 1970..the percentages are way out of whack…much easier to get into the hall from earlier eras

 

[ScarletNut]

The HOF has become the Hall of Very Good

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I know there are a bunch of baseball fans on this board so I wanted to see what others are thinking about this.

Scott Rolen was elected yesterday. Very good player, but not a great one. Feels like the writers just wanted to elect someone for the sake of having a ceremony this summer. I've always thought the HOF should be an elite, selective group. Only reserved for the best of the best. That doesn't mean every good player should get in. In fact, many shouldn't even be on the ballot.

In my opinion, there are too many candidates on the ballot but too much prejudice among the voters. In recent years we have had players like Curt Schilling, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, sure-fire HOFers by any definition, rejected due to the prejudice amongst the baseball writers. We all know the reasons why, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Then to see a guy like Rolen get in, or Todd Helton/Billy Wagner (they're next, likely in 2024 or 2025), kind of irks me. All very good players, but not worthy of Cooperstown in my view. You have players still on the current ballot that, similar to the three I mentioned above, should be in the HOF - Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. Two of the greatest hitters to ever play the game. The fact that they used steroids is a bridge too far for most writers, but then I have to ask why does Gary Sheffield get about 20% more of the vote than them? He was on the juice too. The whole process is out of whack.

Ceremony happens regardless if bbwaa elect a player or not...

Scott rolen was orginally at 10 percent first year first player to go from 10 percent to in...

Helton and wagner will get in, beltre will be in, beltran getting punished...remember too the electorate is changing

 

[SHUHitman]

Ceremony happens regardless if bbwaa elect a player or not...

Scott rolen was orginally at 10 percent first year first player to go from 10 percent to in...

Helton and wagner will get in, beltre will be in, beltran getting punished...remember too the electorate is changing

Don't discount the ridiculousness of the voters in this process either. Many don't vote each year based on who they feel is a HOFer or not. I'm sure that some vote based on who they feel is a "first ballot" player or not, who should have to wait until someone else gets in first, etc. There are all sorts of games that get played and why I feel the writers should honestly lose this privilege. Should be voted on by peers and fans imo.

 

[Seton75]

If we have to discuss....not a hall of famer.

 

[SHUHitman]

If we have to discuss....not a hall of famer.

Disagree completely. If that were the case there would be about 20 people in it. The fact only one person was ever elected at 100% tells you that discussion is at the heart of the subject.

 

[TheHall87]

Rolen is considered one of the great defensive third basemen of all-time. That's a big reason for his election.

Also a very solid hitter. He hit 20 or more home runs 10 times including eight consecutive years and drove in over 90 runs nine times.

 

[metalpirate07]

Rolen’s numbers compare favorably with other 3b in the hall already, as do Kent’s compared to other 2b so I’ve been a big supporter of both. I think Kent gets in via Veterans/Modern Era committee in a few years. The way writers have all this holier than thou revisionist history re: steroids means the votes are all over the map, which creates a logjam of candidates and voters only being able to pick 10 names comes into play. Not so much this year but in years past for sure, and more so going forward as next year there will be a few newcomers with legitimate first ballot potential unlike this year. These are the kinds of years where dead weight needs to be cleared off and more voted in or dropped but it didn’t really happen. The way they’ve handled this entire era has been a mess, and pretending as if a few decades of baseball history didn’t happen is dangerous when the modern game is unwatchable and younger fans are non-existent, so ignoring the era when the managers and the commissioner who benefited from it are all in is peak hypocrisy. Extra hypocrisy icing on top when the “anonymous” 2003 survey test results are used against Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and A Rod, but not Big Papi because the media likes him. I guarantee others were on that same list that didn’t leak who are in the Hall already.
It’s all part of baseball’s March to irrelevance and they’ve done it to themselves.

 

[williaza01]

Rolen is considered one of the great defensive third basemen of all-time. That's a big reason for his election.

Also a very solid hitter. He hit 20 or more home runs 10 times including eight consecutive years and drove in over 90 runs nine times.

One point against this is that new defense analytics were heavily involved in promoting his defensive prowessz. Those defensive analytical numbers are very controversial.

I don’t care either way but that what the Rolen haters will say

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Rolen is considered one of the great defensive third basemen of all-time. That's a big reason for his election.

Also a very solid hitter. He hit 20 or more home runs 10 times including eight consecutive years and drove in over 90 runs nine times.

His war 15 better than jeff kent...he and keith herdandez both 17 yr career how is keith not in hof...he should be he will eventually best glove ever

 

[lloyde dobler]

What’s also amazing is the number of voters whose writing qualifications are dubious at best or honarary, or haven‘t covered MLB in some cases decades.

 

[Seton75]

Disagree completely. If that were the case there would be about 20 people in it. The fact only one person was ever elected at 100% tells you that discussion is at the heart of the subject.

Very few hof are debatable. I cant think of one before neikro and sutton.

Maybe moreso now.

 

[williaza01]

Very few hof are debatable. I cant think of one before neikro and sutton.

Maybe moreso now.

No offense that’s not true. Have you seen executive committee inductees particular from the Connie Mack era?

 

[TheHall87]

His war 15 better than jeff kent...he and keith herdandez both 17 yr career how is keith not in hof...he should be he will eventually best glove ever

Keith Hernandez is the best defensive first baseman I've seen. He made plays no other first baseman could make.

And he was a damn good hitter. His biggest flaw was a lack of power.

 

[Seton75]

No offense that’s not true. Have you seen executive committee inductees particular from the Connie Mack era?

I am actally talking guy elected by sportswriters in my era. I looked at the guys voted in. None for me debatable till those 2.

 

[SHUHitman]

I am actally talking guy elected by sportswriters in my era. I looked at the guys voted in. None for me debatable till those 2.

I mean, that's your position. Clearly not the positions of others, and thus why there have been years long debates on many who are in. If none were debatable everyone in there would be first ballot with 100% votes.

 

[Seton75]

I mean, that's your position. Clearly not the positions of others, and thus why there have been years long debates on many who are in. If none were debatable everyone in there would be first ballot with 100% votes.

Is there any doubt whatsoever that Jeter is a HOF player? No. No sane person debated that. And that writer who voted no knew he was too, just wanted to preserve the non unanimous streak

I may be off on the idea that few are debatable (don't think I am and I see more as debatable as time progresses but still a small minority), but using the unanimous thing is not germane imo.

 

[SHU_Pirate1]

Putting a 280 hitter in the Hall is an absolute joke and tarnishes what a true Hall of Fame should be, the best of the best. I think the closest he came to MVP was 13th! Bill Madlock of the Pirates won 4 batting crowns and he didn't get close to getting in. Kent had far superior numbers and he didn't get in. He is NOT a better third baseman than Graig Nettles! Mattingly was 5 times the player Rollen was and as spectacular as he was he didn't get in because his career was cut short by injury. I could go on and on. So weak. 👎

 

[williaza01]

Putting a 280 hitter in the Hall is an absolute joke and tarnishes what a true Hall of Fame should be, the best of the best. I think the closest he came to MVP was 13th! Bill Madlock of the Pirates won 4 batting crowns and he didn't get close to getting in. Kent had far superior numbers and he didn't get in. He is NOT a better third baseman than Graig Nettles! Mattingly was 5 times the player Rollen was and as spectacular as he was he didn't get in because his career was cut short by injury. I could go on and on. So weak. 👎

They don’t even look at BA and he finished 4th once

 

[Seton75]

They don’t even look at BA and he finished 4th once

Imo if the best mvp finish he ever had was he once finished 4th, that alone tells us he isnt a HOF player.

 

[SHU_Pirate1]

They don’t even look at BA and he finished 4th once

I’ll blame Mad Dog for that one didn’t bother fact-checking that.They don’t look at BA? What? That doesn’t make any sense. If there was a thread of truth to that then Graig Nettles should absolutely be In over him. Here’s another quick thought. At any time in his career was Rolen considered a top 5 player in baseball?

Somebody said this earlier and I tend to agree. Sort of fits into the softening of America. Standards being dropped and traditional levels of excellence no longer adhered to.

 

[williaza01]

I’ll blame Mad Dog for that one didn’t bother fact-checking that.They don’t look at BA? What? That doesn’t make any sense. If there was a thread of truth to that then Graig Nettles should absolutely be In over him. Here’s another quick thought. At any time in his career was Rolen considered a top 5 player in baseball?

Somebody said this earlier and I tend to agree. Sort of fits into the softening of America. Standards being dropped and traditional levels of excellence no longer adhered to.

Im not saying Rolen is a HoFer..but I’m telling you a HIGH majority of those voters don’t even really consider BA..sorry

 

[williaza01]

I’ll blame Mad Dog for that one didn’t bother fact-checking that.They don’t look at BA? What? That doesn’t make any sense. If there was a thread of truth to that then Graig Nettles should absolutely be In over him. Here’s another quick thought. At any time in his career was Rolen considered a top 5 player in baseball?

Somebody said this earlier and I tend to agree. Sort of fits into the softening of America. Standards being dropped and traditional levels of excellence no longer adhered to.

How is this true? This is not new…BBWA are USUALLY the most stingy but there are questionable HoFers dating way way back

It is also MUCH harder to make the hof if you played after 1970..look it up

 

[SHU_Pirate1]

Im not saying Rolen is a HoFer..but I’m telling you a HIGH majority of those voters don’t even really consider BA..sorry

Lloyd brought this up earlier and I’ll agree on the point, these voters are not qualified to be making historic decisions

Who’s voting on (vetting) the voters?

 

[williaza01]

Lloyd brought this up earlier and I’ll agree on the point, these voters are not qualified to be making historic decisions

Who’s voting on (vetting) the voters?

The bbwa and hof

 

[SHU_Pirate1]

The bbwa and hof

To loosely quote Wayne and Garth, they’re not worthy!

 

[williaza01]

To loosely quote Wayne and Garth, they’re not worthy!

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you just stating the fact…very few baseball front offices look at it either fwiw

 

[TheHall87]

Putting a 280 hitter in the Hall is an absolute joke and tarnishes what a true Hall of Fame should be, the best of the best. I think the closest he came to MVP was 13th! Bill Madlock of the Pirates won 4 batting crowns and he didn't get close to getting in. Kent had far superior numbers and he didn't get in. He is NOT a better third baseman than Graig Nettles! Mattingly was 5 times the player Rollen was and as spectacular as he was he didn't get in because his career was cut short by injury. I could go on and on. So weak. 👎

Rolen won four times as many Gold Gloves, had a better career fielding percentage and made more All-Star teams in five fewer years than Nettles did.

Rolen also had a better on-base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS + than Nettles did.

Nettles had 74 more home runs and 27 more RBI than Rolen in 1,600 more ABs.

But please tell me how Nettles should be in the HOF over Rolen.