OT: SO to SHU: FU, Make Money for Us

[400SOAVE]

In typical fashion, South Orange wants to make as much money as possible from Seton Hall while being very uncooperative.

This article perfectly encapsulates the relationship.

http://villagegreennj.com/towns/government/south-orange-working-seton-hall-create-new-housing/

They will help with the housing shortage as long as they make money from the deal. They will, implicitly, obstruct SHU if they try to purchase a property for student housing. It's not good enough that students will spend money in town, and that SHU will make contributions.

And all those home owners who rent rooms to students sure love those monthly checks they charge to live in those big homes that haven't been fixed up in at least 40 years.

For SO, life is always a one-way street that goes straight to their tax collector's office.

It's incredible that the Village President has two degrees from SHU.

SHU should purchase whatever property they want if it's in the right zone. That way, SO can't concoct a reason to stop them.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Normally, I'm right there with you on this issue, and there are a host of cultural issues that the Village of South Orange has with Seton Hall. In this case, I think this is a positive. They are acknowledging, for the first time that I've ever seen, that they benefit from student dollars. I understand that the real issue is that they don't want SHU acquiring any more tax-exempt properties. I think a downtown bookstore, much like our neighbors in New Brunswick have, is a great idea, and could secure a foothold of downtown businesses that actually support the University.

I spoke with a guy, this summer, who lived in South Orange for 50 years, and relocated, largely because of taxes north of $20,000, and having a large empty nest. He made some interesting comments, which one may agree with or not, but they at least made me think. He said that in the 50's and 60's, many of those large homes in the Village were packed with 5+ child families. Their dads may have made a nice living in NY, but they were solidly middle class, held back from great prosperity by sending multiple kids to Seton Hall Prep, Marylawn, Essex Catholic, St. Benedict's, and the like. They respected the Catholic Church, and the local University. When they sold out, many nouveau riche moved in, well-educated and largely secular, and the push-back against SHU, based on distaste for Catholics, as well as what they view as an inferior academic institution, began.

I've been separated from SHU for 20+ years now, and only visit South Orange a couple times a year; I can't verify any of this, but it certainly makes some sense of what the South Orange online newspapers are always complaining about. I'm sure there were cranks in the 50's and 60's who complained about rowdy kids, noise, and lights, too; hopefully, with Esteban in charge, and a much improved academic standing in the past 20 years, dialogue can progress, and our beloved alma mater and South Orange can thrive -- it really doesn't have to be so contentious, it can be a great college town. Then you hear news stories like Maplewood schools banning Halloween, and remember a couple of years back when Columbia High School banned Christmas music from it's "holiday" band concert, and you wonder what kind of disgusting human beings the school board has to put up with.

 

[Section112]

That's a great post Donnie. A close friend of mine and SHU grad had an accounting firm in SO and also lived there. He relocated to Morris County. Said SO taxes were crazy high and the public schools were poor. Another friend has been on the SO police force for over 20 years and he has said the cops have it out for SHU kids and know its a revenue source for the town and treat it that way. SO has lots of issues and unfortunately SHU is in the middle of it.

 

[400SOAVE]

donnie and 112, I understand what you're both saying, and I agree with most of what you posted.

A relationship, however, has to have a give and take. South Orange needs to cease with their almost pathological hostility to a school that was there long before anybody's grandparent was born.

All those Brooklyn hipsters need to cool it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/realestate/maplewood-nj-if-brooklyn-were-a-suburb.html?_r=0

Take SOPAC, for example. The finances were so bad that South Orange had to take over. The $50,000 yearly donation/rent that SHU provides must be a big help.

Yet I've never seen SHU's productions individuallly promoted when I get SOPAC's emails. It's as if they begrudging accept the money.

As somebody who lived on and off campus in SO (I also have a close relative who lived on and off campus) I can tell you that the police and residents went out of their way to be unfair and unfriendly to SHU students. The parking rules seem specifically designed to target SHU students.

Yet SHU seems passive and accepting. That is perhaps the most annoying part.

 

[donnie_baseball]

donnie and 112, I understand what you're both saying, and I agree with most of what you posted.



All those Brooklyn hipsters need to cool it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/realestate/maplewood-nj-if-brooklyn-were-a-suburb.html?_r=0

LOL. I read that article. Crazy.

 

[hallgrad80]

Good informative posts and an interesting perspective by Donnie. The unique thing about this debate is that there is an easy solution to the housing crunch at SH . When you have a limited footprint on which to build to add space you go up. Think of how many rooms you could add if you added two or three floors to every dorm on campus yet SO won't permit that, an issue that SH has had to deal with when it wanted to exceed the current height limits in the past.

 

[SOBO1]

Question for a lawyer - Can South Orange legally prohibit SHU or any other tax exempt entity from purchasing more land in the town? I understand the desire retain the tax revenue from previous land owners, but it doesn't seem fair.

SHU is stuck between a rock and a hard place - Needs more land to expand but if they do that they royally piss off the town who will make their life a living hell.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Question for a lawyer - Can South Orange legally prohibit SHU or any other tax exempt entity from purchasing more land in the town? I understand the desire retain the tax revenue from previous land owners, but it doesn't seem fair.

I'm no attorney -- but, no. I live in a county seat, and there are myriad municipal buildings, and a hospital. When the fairly thriving Catholic Church buys property, there is always wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[cernjSHU]

Question for a lawyer - Can South Orange legally prohibit SHU or any other tax exempt entity from purchasing more land in the town? I understand the desire retain the tax revenue from previous land owners, but it doesn't seem fair.

SHU is stuck between a rock and a hard place - Needs more land to expand but if they do that they royally piss off the town who will make their life a living hell.

They can't prohibit a sale but they can prohibit the use through zoning and other approvals that would ordinarily be needed in order to have dorms. So in reality, they can make things very difficult if not impossible. I perfectly understand the town's position of losing tax roles. If Seton Hall buys property, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of tax dollars are taken from the town's budget. How will a town make up for that loss of income? The only way is to raise taxes on an already high property tax town and that is not right.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Cern is right. You can't expect an Essex County municipality to cut spending!

 

[Seton75]

They should cut expenses where possible. But they should not necessarily cut expenses to compensate for lost revenue cause we bought some land. Maybe they determine that is good policy, maybe not. We have two parties with clashing priorities. Good luck fixing this.

 

[hallgrad80]

They can't prohibit a sale but they can prohibit the use through zoning and other approvals that would ordinarily be needed in order to have dorms. So in reality, they can make things very difficult if not impossible. I perfectly understand the town's position of losing tax roles. If Seton Hall buys property, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of tax dollars are taken from the town's budget. How will a town make up for that loss of income? The only way is to raise taxes on an already high property tax town and that is not right.

If SH were to buy an apartment building and house students in it, the use doesn't change just the tenant of each apartment changes and does that negate the need for any approval from SO?

 

[donnie_baseball]

They should cut expenses where possible. But they should not necessarily cut expenses to compensate for lost revenue cause we bought some land. Maybe they determine that is good policy, maybe not. We have two parties with clashing priorities.

Well, it ultimately comes back to the fact that taxes don't need to be $15-20K for 1/8th of an acre in Essex County. Residents like to blame the non-profits for the loss of ratables, but what about the expenditures column?

Good luck fixing this.

Indeed. Better them than us.

Hallgrad -- good point. I believe SHU already did that, with Ora Manor (and one other property on Valley Rd.) in the 90s.

 

[bluemoments]

Worth noting that the village president is an SHU alum and big supporter. She gets the town/gown issues more than her predecessors.

 

[bluemoments]

I spoke with a guy, this summer, who lived in South Orange for 50 years, and relocated, largely because of taxes north of $20,000, and having a large empty nest. He made some interesting comments, which one may agree with or not, but they at least made me think. He said that in the 50's and 60's, many of those large homes in the Village were packed with 5+ child families. Their dads may have made a nice living in NY, but they were solidly middle class, held back from great prosperity by sending multiple kids to Seton Hall Prep, Marylawn, Essex Catholic, St. Benedict's, and the like. They respected the Catholic Church, and the local University. When they sold out, many nouveau riche moved in, well-educated and largely secular, and the push-back against SHU, based on distaste for Catholics, as well as what they view as an inferior academic institution, began.

.

This is an interesting perspective. My suspicion, however, is that WASPs and Jews populated most of the big houses in S Orange in the 50s and 60s. The distaste for Catholics line is just flat out wrong.

 

[400SOAVE]

South Orange is really manufacturing reasons to oppose SHU.

What's the single largest expense for a municipality? It's the school budget. If SHU purchases a big building, no one will sending kids to the local school. That's a big net gain for the town.

Students and SHU will be paying for water, sewage and other utilities. SO won't be paying those bills. And those students will live in that building for possibly four years and will spend a lot of money in SO.

The other point is that SHU should not have to pay for the town's out of control debt and budget issues.

 

[bluemoments]

The school budget does not flow through village's financial statements, so village officials do not care directly about the school budget. Few SO kids like in the apartment buildings, so not sure there is a big net gain in any case.

 

[Save Continental]

I am curious to see how other NJ college towns compare - take Madison/Florham Park for example, towns with relatively low property for northern NJ - which has 3 colleges in its borders. This is a poor comparison probably due to the differing counties, but Essex county property taxes are really a disgusting turn off to some otherwise really nice real estate.

 

[Pirate6711]

South Orange is really manufacturing reasons to oppose SHU.

What's the single largest expense for a municipality? It's the school budget. If SHU purchases a big building, no one will sending kids to the local school. That's a big net gain for the town.

Students and SHU will be paying for water, sewage and other utilities. SO won't be paying those bills. And those students will live in that building for possibly four years and will spend a lot of money in SO.

The other point is that SHU should not have to pay for the town's out of control debt and budget issues.

I don't even know where to start. You're way off on how municipal budgets work.

 

[400SOAVE]

I don't even know where to start. You're way off on how municipal budgets work.

The taxpayers do not pay for the school budget?
It's not the larges expense for a town?
I understand about state contributions, debt, etc.

 

[bluemoments]

The point is that village officials do not concern themselves directly with the school budget.

 

[400SOAVE]

The point is that village officials do not concern themselves directly with the school budget.

Come now, blue. Yes, the school board deals with that issue.
But who pays the bills?

 

[donnie_baseball]

This is an interesting perspective. My suspicion, however, is that WASPs and Jews populated most of the big houses in S Orange in the 50s and 60s. The distaste for Catholics line is just flat out wrong.

Again, I was relating something told to me by someone who lived there during that time -- I don't know. You don't find that there's contempt for Catholics among some WASPS and Jews today?

 

[Pirate6711]

The taxpayers do not pay for the school budget?
It's not the larges expense for a town?

There are likely some small federal or state-funded programs in the school, but a private school like Seton Hall gets very little tax payer money and no local taxes.

The local services used by Seton Hall, primarily fire and police, are huge expenses. I'm not sure how your theory of a tax-exempt entity purchasing property and reducing property tax revenue for South Orange is profitable for the town.

 

[cernjSHU]

I am curious to see how other NJ college towns compare - take Madison/Florham Park for example, towns with relatively low property for northern NJ - which has 3 colleges in its borders. This is a poor comparison probably due to the differing counties, but Essex county property taxes are really a disgusting turn off to some otherwise really nice real estate.

Tell me about it. I absolutely love Montclair. But to pay upwards of $20,000 in property taxes will make me look elsewhere to buy a house.

 

[400SOAVE]

There are likely some small federal or state-funded programs in the school, but a private school like Seton Hall gets very little tax payer money and no local taxes.

The local services used by Seton Hall, primarily fire and police, are huge expenses. I'm not sure how your theory of a tax-exempt entity purchasing property and reducing property tax revenue for South Orange is profitable for the town.

I'm talking about the local schools. As I mentioned, it's the largest expense for a town. SHU and the students do not use those services. They do not have kids to send to local schools.

And SHU already contributes a lot of money in lieu of taxes. They're not getting anything for free.

 

[Save Continental]

Tell me about it. I absolutely love Montclair. But to pay upwards of $20,000 in property taxes will make me look elsewhere to buy a house.

Cern, my wife and I wanted to live in Montclair. The town is great and the proximity to NYC is convenient by train. But we couldn't find any place in or even around Montclair that I was willing to pay those kind of taxes. The rates of increase are scary too.

And some of those towns have mediocre schools to boot. We settled in Florham Park where I at least feel like I'm not getting robbed at gun point by my own municipality, For now....

 

[400SOAVE]

An alternative idea SHU should seriously consider is to purchase a building/property near the school but not in South Orange.

There are thousands of buildings and hundreds of empty lots within a 10 minute drive of campus. (Many of them have been vacant for decades.) You can expand the shuttle service.

That should also send a serious message so South Orange. They are not the only game in town.

 

[bluemoments]

Again, I was relating something told to me by someone who lived there during that time -- I don't know. You don't find that there's contempt for Catholics among some WASPS and Jews today?

And vice versa. There are bigots in every group. But I don't think it drives policy in SO.

 

[bluemoments]

I repeat: Schools are not the largest expense for the village. It's an entirely separate budget. The village and school board are often at odds.

 

[Pirate6711]

I'm talking about the local schools. As I mentioned, it's the largest expense for a town. SHU and the students do not use those services. They do not have kids to send to local schools.

And SHU already contributes a lot of money in lieu of taxes. They're not getting anything for free.

SHU's contribution is far below what South Orange could get from property taxes if the land on the main campus, Ora Manor, Turrell Manor, HR building, health center, Ring Building, etc. were residential or commercial businesses. Yeah, there are battles with the strict codes in South Orange sometimes constricting Seton Hall, but in a partnership like this, you have to take the good with the bad.

 

[Vegas pj]

And to think from the caption of this thread (FU, make money for us) I thought Mr. Edwin was coming back to town in some sort of administrative capacity in the city. Silly me.

 

[Pirate6711]

I actually think Sheena's strategy is a good long-term sustainable strategy. Work with the school to develop off-campus housing for students, have the units be privately owned, and attempt to keep the students in South Orange after graduation.

There's a lot of red tape to get a privately-owned, below-market rent building restricted to only students project off the ground, but it's an idea certainly worth exploring. It would help South Orange's tax base and it would cut down on SHU's expenses, not only for getting students to and from Newark, but also for future campus housing expansion projects.

 

[hallgrad80]

I actually think Sheena's strategy is a good long-term sustainable strategy. Work with the school to develop off-campus housing for students, have the units be privately owned, and attempt to keep the students in South Orange after graduation.

There's a lot of red tape to get a privately-owned, below-market rent building restricted to only students project off the ground, but it's an idea certainly worth exploring. It would help South Orange's tax base and it would cut down on SHU's expenses, not only for getting students to and from Newark, but also for future campus housing expansion projects.

There's another way to do it. Have a private developer build the housing, lease it toSH , that way it remains part of the taxable base for SO. SH then gets the housing it needs w/o having to make any capital investment and uses the fees from the students for housing to fund the lease payments.

 

[jcalz88]

There's another way to do it. Have a private developer build the housing, lease it toSH , that way it remains part of the taxable base for SO. SH then gets the housing it needs w/o having to make any capital investment and uses the fees from the students for housing to fund the lease payments.

To bad Silverstein / Hovnanian are not shu alums... Though the Hovanian's being long time NJ Residences (Rumson) I am sure would not mind having their names on the side of a few buildings, worth a reach out.

 

[seton1996]

There's another way to do it. Have a private developer build the housing, lease it toSH , that way it remains part of the taxable base for SO. SH then gets the housing it needs w/o having to make any capital investment and uses the fees from the students for housing to fund the lease payments.

This is definitely the new idea in college housing, I believe recent dorms opened at Rutgers Newark and College of NJ where private developers built and own the property. Often lower floors are retail, while colleges lease upper floors for student housing.

One issue with this type of plan in South Orange, is where is the property available to build this type of housing? As another said, SHU should look to property nearby in Newark or East Orange, more property is available, cheaper acquisition costs, probably more friendly zoning issues, may even be closer to campus than options in South Orange, biggest concern may be safety issues.

 

[seton1996]

I am curious to see how other NJ college towns compare - take Madison/Florham Park for example, towns with relatively low property for northern NJ - which has 3 colleges in its borders. This is a poor comparison probably due to the differing counties, but Essex county property taxes are really a disgusting turn off to some otherwise really nice real estate.

Montclair State is having lots of issues with Montclair, Little Falls and Clifton. That school has exploded in recent years, and they have been on a building boom, but they are running out of space and have clashed with the towns over similar things as SHU has with SO, parking garages, building heights, etc.. This has been a problem for colleges that are in the middle of residential suburbs, no one wants a tower going up in their neighborhood.

 

[400SOAVE]

I thought that the medical school would provide some relief until I read in the Record that there are no plan for dorms.

That's a real head-scratcher.

They claim that they are starting a national medical school that integrates a nursing program and graduate medical medical program.

Part of that should include a housing community of people living together. They say they're going to eventually have 2,500 students. Where are those students going to live? I realize that some will commute.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/bus...e-1-plans-for-nutley-medical-school-1.1428502

And there is not enough parking.

 

[400SOAVE]

1996, with the right location, planning, construction and security plan, safety would not be an issue.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Not familiar with all the stuff posted here, but did see a separate list of arguments here, associated with Monmouth University, where the town in Long Branch or whatever is the bordering towns are down there, does not want a high rise dorm building to go up in or around the surrounding neighborhood near campus. Obviously there is more free space down there along the shoreline that isn't developed, but SHU probably has to really get involved with more business owners to get some of the things done at the county/town level. It may temporarily dip into the schools profits, but my guess would be that networking at the school to community level probably isn't as strong as it could be.

RU was resistant to this for years with local businesses and eateries and other things that didn't include the business owners of New Brunswick and Piscataway...parents were spending money for simple things like meal plans that were only associated with the schools cafeterias....now, you can have you can have your meal plan funds allocated to a bunch of different restaurants/eateries....now it's a lot different and the commerce gets spread out across the cities other businesses that network with the school. Same thing can be done to housing, there's got to be more revenue the school can charge if they have nicer housing etc.

I know new dorms at RU have constantly been going up all over campus and it makes it a more vibrant campus and more money stays in town IF students don't need to run home on Friday afternoon and return Sunday night...now you can eat anywhere, vs running home to mom or grandmom's cooking and you can hang out in town.....that gives business owners (old and new) a chance to capitalize on it. It's not that complicated, but it would probably take 5 to 10 years to really outline an aggressive plan that can bring revenue to everyone that may be reluctant to saying yes.