Delighted to see that the Vatican today strongly condemned the abuses described in the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report. The Pope —who I greatly respect— has been reluctant to come out this strongly on the abuse issue and it’s gratifying to see him rise to the occasion. I see that horse’s ass Bill Donohue of the Catholic League is still dissembling on the matter. What a clueless blowhard. Now it would be great to see the Vatican bring the hammer down fully on that bum McCarrick.
OT: Three Cheers for Pope Francis and the Vatican
- Thread starter HallLine69
- Start date
He condemned systematic approval of heinous child abuse. What other choice does he have
The church needs a reformation. The basics of the faith as Jesus taught them should be kept intact
But everything else should be examined -top to bottom. From ordination of married priests and women , to how seminaries are run, to the power of bishops over parish assignments, to divorced Catholics. Add to the list.
Francis should covene a worldwide consistory to accomplish this. It would show the world that he realizes, like the rest of us, that the Church is in grave crisis.
But everything else should be examined -top to bottom. From ordination of married priests and women , to how seminaries are run, to the power of bishops over parish assignments, to divorced Catholics. Add to the list.
Francis should covene a worldwide consistory to accomplish this. It would show the world that he realizes, like the rest of us, that the Church is in grave crisis.
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Guys, why is this on the Trove?
Tomorrow AM I will move it to the Off the Ship board.
Tomorrow AM I will move it to the Off the Ship board.
This isn’t a bad aside when there’s no news. Beats the Willard bashing and kamikaze comments about no recruits. I get moving it to the Off the Ship board, though.
I would like to see Pope Francis open up and turn over their files to an independent investigation agency. It is likely more rampant but you need to rip the bandaid off to restore faith in the Vatican.
I’m a Catholic but everyday it’s getting harder with the way these asshole Bishops and Cardinals acted. There is no excuse and the Washington bishop should step down now. And they have tarnished the good priests as well and they are out there. The crisis is not going away until they deal with it much more openly. You can’t just have a conference of Bishops and change a few rules and think it’s all over. This is s good first step by our Pope but the church needs to do so much more for the victims. Can’t keep hiding behind lawyers and statutes of limitation.
Two priests are driving along and get pulled over by a few cops.
A cop comes to the window and the priest says, "Can I help you, officer?"
The cop says, "We're looking for a couple of child molesters."
The priest looks over at the other priest, turns back and says, "We'll do it."
A cop comes to the window and the priest says, "Can I help you, officer?"
The cop says, "We're looking for a couple of child molesters."
The priest looks over at the other priest, turns back and says, "We'll do it."
Agree with you 100% but "they are out there" should read "they are the majority." In all of my time in Catholic school, and in the parishes of my youth and adult life, I have never met nor heard of a molester priest, and I suspect that is the experience of most Catholics.
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I've been in the presence of three priests who were charged (two posthumously). Thank God nothing ever happened to me but it was a surprise when they were charged and I spent time with two out of three. One made perfect sense to me because everyone thought the guy was a perv when we were kids and we stayed away. The other surprised me and I still cannot believe it. I know that two of them were sent to different parishes multiple times. Was that because their acts were being covered up or was it just normal church stuff? Gerety and McCarrick were the bishops by the way for those priests at the time. I agree that most priests are good and hopefully do their job. But not protecting children is among the worst atrocities someone can commit and is simply unforgiveable.
I was at the shore this weekend and the Franciscan priest addressed the issue head on and I thought did a nice job. He said not to ever forget that we are the church and not the Bishops and Cardinals - good line but what power do we have to remove these aholes and when are they going to take responsibility? It's time the Bishops and Cardinals stepped up and realized that things need to change drastically in the church. Priests should be able to be married. Why don't we hear from women from the pulpit they are 50% of the population? Why is the church not kinder and more welcoming to LGBT (my parish is trying but we have also gotten some big time criticism from other priests)? Why don't we open the books and pay for the past atrocities and try to move forward? The church has huge problems and it has not really dealt with them and it's forcing many to leave or rethink their affiliation and I don't blame them one bit. Sad but true.
Here is the letter from the Pope - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-church/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.01626334a8c4
His words are a start. But until he acts forcefully and removes Cardinal Wuerl and others they are only words. He needs to stop dragging his feet.
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This was never about child molesters or pedophilia. This has always been about the homosexual molestation of teenagers and seminarians but the Main Street Media would never tell the truth because it didn't fit their narrative. Pope Francis had to be aware of this and chose to do nothing. Mccarrick and the Pennsylvania grand jury report forced his hand. Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison Wisconsin has written a magnificent letter to his diocese which clearly states what the problem has been and what needs to be done to rectify it. Google it. It gets to the heart of the problem and every Bishop in the country should be writing similar letters to their flocks.
Bishop Robert Morlino (Madison, WI) wrote a very encouraging 5 page letter this weekend.
Another source of comfort has been the American Cardinal Raymond Burke. He gave a really honest and forthright interview with EWTN's Raymond Arroyo on August 16th, which can be viewed on YouTube.
Another source of comfort has been the American Cardinal Raymond Burke. He gave a really honest and forthright interview with EWTN's Raymond Arroyo on August 16th, which can be viewed on YouTube.
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All good posts....Pope Francis has built up a ton of credibility and respect in a relatively short period of time. This is a defining moment for the Catholic Church and Pope Francis to take measurable actions. The victims deserve nothing less. The initial statement was a start, but we need complete transparency and accountability. Making vague comments about never letting this happen again is not enough.
I have to strongly disagree with you and Morlino's actual words also disagree with your characterization too. There were plenty of young boys and some girls that were molested so you can't just say this was mostly about teens and seminarians (which doesn't ever make it more palatable anyway) - pedophilia is part of it too and as he says none of it is acceptable. Young boys and girls were molested at the hands of priests. If you do some research you see in the PA case there was a 9 year old boy and in many other cases the trouble started with altar boys too. There was a 2004 study that was done by John Jay College that said between 1950 and 2002 there were over 10,000 cases of individuals that accused priests of sexual abuse under the age of 18 - that is hardly the press mischaracterizing this. Be careful how you word things. It's all wrong.
When it rains it pours
This is in my backyard
http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-lehigh-priest-charges-20180821-story.html
This is in my backyard
http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-lehigh-priest-charges-20180821-story.html
(1) Per the John Jay study (below), only 96 of 4,329 (2.2%) offenders were truly pedophiles in the sense of targeting pre-pubescent children. The vast majority (about 80%) of offenders were in fact homosexuals.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1179/002436311803888276
(2) For specific testimony on the predation by homosexuals visited on seminarians and young priests, this recent CNA article on our very own Archdiocese of Newark is worth reading in detail:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...archbishop-mccarrick-and-newark-priests-50523
(3) With regard to Bishop Morlino's letter, he has been quite explicit with his language. Quotes directly from his letter:
"It is time to admit that there is a homosexual subculture within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking great devastation in the vineyard of the Lord."
"...until recently the problems of the Church have been painted purely as problems of pedophilia — this despite clear evidence to the contrary."
"...in the specific situations at hand, we are talking about deviant sexual — almost exclusively homosexual — acts by clerics. We’re also talking about homosexual propositions and abuses against seminarians and young priests by powerful priests, bishops, and cardinals."
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1179/002436311803888276
(2) For specific testimony on the predation by homosexuals visited on seminarians and young priests, this recent CNA article on our very own Archdiocese of Newark is worth reading in detail:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...archbishop-mccarrick-and-newark-priests-50523
(3) With regard to Bishop Morlino's letter, he has been quite explicit with his language. Quotes directly from his letter:
"It is time to admit that there is a homosexual subculture within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking great devastation in the vineyard of the Lord."
"...until recently the problems of the Church have been painted purely as problems of pedophilia — this despite clear evidence to the contrary."
"...in the specific situations at hand, we are talking about deviant sexual — almost exclusively homosexual — acts by clerics. We’re also talking about homosexual propositions and abuses against seminarians and young priests by powerful priests, bishops, and cardinals."
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Regarding your points in your post:
1) Per the John Jay study, 96 instances is 96 too many and it proves there was plenty of pedophilia cases. Both things are happening and both are wrong.
2) I understand this argument and unfortunately it is true. I was involved in a large fund raising campaign to build a Ministry Center at my church. I worked with a well known Fund Raising company that works exclusively for churches. The CEO of the fund raising company (a prominent Cardinal's nephew by the way) told me at the time that each year there was an annual conference of priests and it turned into a very sordid affair after hours with many priests hooking up each night and said it was pretty out in the open. Said many priests are not celibate (no surprise) and also joined the priesthood due to the subculture. I'm not disputing this because it's true - but there have also been way too many cases of pedophilia - 1 is too many.
3) Morlino has balls for being this forthright but thankfully he is being truthful finally. My current pastor has said openly that many of the older conservative priests are gay and some are preditors. He said these are the same guys saying things like gay people are sinners etc. and said they are all hypocrites. I happen to have a very liberal and very open pastor and he is trying to change the culture. Our parish has a big sign in front that "All are welcome" and it means what it says because me and a bunch of parishioners are tired of our religion being so closed off and want to welcome everyone. So far we have had more than one visiting priest ask about the sign and what it means and complain about it. Our pastor has balls and asked them to leave immediately each time. He has gotten into hot water about it but we have told him we have his back.
As another poster said the church needs a full reformation and needs to get rid of all the bad apples even if that means it has 30% fewer priests. It's losing Catholics faster than priests and the death of this religion is coming soon unless there is change.
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It is also time to admit that there is a subculture of cover-up in within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking greater devastation in the vineyard of the Lord.
Section112 - Thank you for sharing your experiences, which I found interesting and informative. Of course, even one pedophile is too many.
On the subject of "welcoming," of course the fundamental debate is over welcoming the individual (which all do with joy) versus welcoming the ideology.
On the subject of "welcoming," of course the fundamental debate is over welcoming the individual (which all do with joy) versus welcoming the ideology.
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Yes, and those signs are present everywhere, including my parish. In all my years of sitting in the pews, I have never once heard a sermon, prayer, pitch, or comment that homosexuals - or any other group for that matter - are not welcome. That is a construct of those who hate the Church, and have no interest in being welcomed there.
I heard a sermon two years ago from a conservative deacon condemning homosexuality in my church. A few agreed but most were appalled and I spoke to him after and said his words hurt many parishioners. It's out there Donnie whether you like it or not. And we need to welcome people more. I have multiple friends that are practicing Catholics that have kids that are gay and they feel like they need to make a choice between the church and their child. They will always choose their child and rightfully so. Some are still going to church but they do not always feel welcome and want to change that feeling and the feeling their church has for their kids. It's a tough position to be in and I feel for those parents very much and want to see change in our church. Thankfully Cardinal Tobin is trying to change that although he has come under great criticism from conservative Catholics about what he has done. I applaud him.
And I knew a guy who killed his mom. It's not whether I like it or not, it's just very, very rare. The Catholic Church is never going to condone/sanction or consecrate same sex marriages. That's all there is to it. There is legitimate concern that in the future, the Church may be legally compelled to do this, and that is where the push back is. I think the Church has generally taken a hate the sin, love the sinner approach, and they certainly haven't barred homosexuals from receiving Communion. If a gay person wanders into Mass at any given parish on any given Sunday, they are almost certainly not going to hear anything upsetting.
The changes are too many to list Belluno frankly. Where do I start?
Our church has serious institutional problems and is losing the future generation badly. My client a CEO of a large bank said that either her bank must change or she will be extinct. It's dramatic but if we keep the status quo our church will be a fragment of what it is now in the not too distant future.
The culture of cover ups by Cardinals and Bishops and possibly Pope's has to stop yesterday. There are current sitting Bishops that knew about McCarrick and never said a word - they all need to go and you know their names. The good news is many are retiring soon. Many others knew and it was one of the worst kept secrets.
The dogma of homosexuality is wrong IMO - I am sure you will disagree. But let's start with being more welcoming and giving everyone a safe place to congregate and worship without judgement. Cardinal Tobin is trying to do that under much undue scrutiny from the old conservative guard.
Celibacy is not working for many priests. A real conversation needs to be had and IMO priests should be able to be married.
There are too many rules for divorced Catholics that are unclear. Can they receive communion etc? We have too many rules in general.
Why is 50% of the population not heard from on the altar? Women should be priests IMO but let's at least let them be Deacons. This is not a rights issue - it's just an issue of common sense. 50% of parishioners are women, why are they not represented?
A great quote from an Irish Nun today who runs a large religious order - Sister Murphy said "It is a very male, masculine, institutional, top down, dictatorial body. Who wouldn't want, as a woman, to see that collapse?" Murphy said. She also said about the future of the church "This is a virus, and this is not going to be healed over these coming days," she said. "To expect the pope to come up with the strategic plan for the Catholic Church over a weekend in Dublin is quite daft to be honest."
The church needs a reformation driven by the laity and not the Cardinals and Bishops that cannot get out of their own way. Simplify and focus on what matters. An inclusive, welcoming community of people that get together to celebrate the sacraments, celebrate people's lives when they pass, pray for the world and feed and care for the poor (and not necessarily in that order). Get back to basics and leave generations of ridiculous rules behind. You would probably say based on this I am not a Catholic and maybe you are right in your opinion which I respect. My hope is that our church will change and soon but I am afraid I will be disappointed again. I am not going to get into any back and forth - this is my opinion. Have at it but this is most likely my last response on this thread - gotta get back to work.
This has happened before in history, most notably when Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door.
In this case, it is more like a cruise missle coming through the door.
The ball is in the Pope's hands and if change is going to happen it will have to start with him.
In this case, it is more like a cruise missle coming through the door.
The ball is in the Pope's hands and if change is going to happen it will have to start with him.
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Regarding the investigation at Seton Hall Seminary school...
https://articles.nj.com/news/index...._allegations_in.amp?__twitter_impression=true
https://articles.nj.com/news/index...._allegations_in.amp?__twitter_impression=true
Section 112, Thank you very much for taking the time to go into such detail as to what changes you would like to see. As you noted, we are worlds apart. I want no part of a church that supports or encourages me in my sin. Any priest who does so is failing in his mission and complicit in my weakness. That goes for any sin, not just sodomy.
I don't know where this is leading us, as Pope Francis has so frequently confused issues and refused to address legitimate questions from some of his Cardinals. Now he seems to be blaming this terrible situation on clericalism. His failure to recognize and address the issue head-on is extremely troubling.
No need to address the subjects of married priests or female clergy. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from and why.
So that leaves us with agreeing on Seton Hall basketball and maybe that's where we should leave it. Again, thanks for your time and opinions.
I don't know where this is leading us, as Pope Francis has so frequently confused issues and refused to address legitimate questions from some of his Cardinals. Now he seems to be blaming this terrible situation on clericalism. His failure to recognize and address the issue head-on is extremely troubling.
No need to address the subjects of married priests or female clergy. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from and why.
So that leaves us with agreeing on Seton Hall basketball and maybe that's where we should leave it. Again, thanks for your time and opinions.
If clericalism includes the recycling of known predators to other unsuspecting parishes, then clericalism is indeed part of the problem.
Section112 is well meaning, but I'm hoping that the Church of I'm OK, You're OK that he's hoping for never comes to pass. If it does, I will go and become a United Methodist. To understand the "rules" that you have so much trouble with, you have to understand why Christ came among men. Love your neighbor, cast not the first stone, absolutely. But he also talked a lot about separating wheat from chaff, told his own disciple, "Get behind me, you satan," and said "if you do not eat my body and drink my blood, you can not have life within you." Irish though I might be, what silly comments from that Sister in Ireland. What woman wouldn't want to see it collapse? My mom. My wife. Kelly Wahlquist. I'm sure there are others 
The Church already feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, and ministers to the poor in ways you can not even imagine. EVERY day, EVERY where. Those who have left the Church and the non-religious could never dream of performing works on this scale. So that's not the problem. The problem is less people doing it.
You can't be a moral authority without referring to objective right and wrong.
Obviously, you can't claim moral authority and then allow the amorality that has poisoned the Church, either.
I am open to looking into ordaining women, and possibly allowing marriage to those who desire it.
The Church already feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, and ministers to the poor in ways you can not even imagine. EVERY day, EVERY where. Those who have left the Church and the non-religious could never dream of performing works on this scale. So that's not the problem. The problem is less people doing it.
You can't be a moral authority without referring to objective right and wrong.
Obviously, you can't claim moral authority and then allow the amorality that has poisoned the Church, either.
I am open to looking into ordaining women, and possibly allowing marriage to those who desire it.
If the church doesn't change lots more good Catholics will be walking out. To not have women represented on the altar is just plain stupid. The celibacy thing ain't working and there are years and years of evidence that it hasn't been working. How do you counsel families without having a clue what it is to be married if you've never been married. My mother-in-law who might be one of the best people I've ever met, had her husband cheat on her time and time again and talked to two priests and both told her to make it work and that it was as much her fault as it was his? They told her she would not be able to receive communion if she got a divorce (very welcoming and practical advice??). She finally got a divorce from the clown and didn't receive for years because she thought she was not allowed. I had a different priest talk to her a few years back and he encouraged her to begin receiving again and thankfully she did - she did nothing wrong and raised her family alone at great personal sacrifice. If you talk to the hard core Catholics she was sinning which absolutely makes no sense at all. This religion is so filled with so many ridiculous rules that Jesus would never ever make and more importantly that he did not model in his time here. His example is all that matters when making decisions about God. The Catholic church has lost its way badly.
And allowing women to be clergy and changing the celibacy rules will have nothing to do with encouraging sin - nothing. The early church allowed men to marry.
Big picture - What you are seeing now is a massive power struggle between the ultra conservative Bishops/Cardinals who do not want to see change and the new order that wants to change things. Pope Francis as flawed as he is, is trying to appoint Bishops and Cardinals that want to see change in the church. The longer he stays the more votes the next Pope gets. The next Pope will be the one that institutes change or keeps the status quo. Francis health is not great by the way and the other side knows that. The longer the more conservative Bishops and Cardinals stay, the higher odds the next Pope is more conservative. It's a classic power struggle. But during the struggle you can see the church has lost its way. Get your popcorn because this is just the beginning.
If in fact Francis knew about McCarrick - which he probably did - he needs to resign. The McCarrick thing was one of the worst kept secrets ever by the way. Many priests knew or heard about it from our area.
As the struggle continues and the church does what is does best which is drag its feet, we will continue to lose more and more of the next generation. Why would they want to follow church leaders who deceive and protect their legacy instead of protecting children, seminarians and others AND who do not recognize women on the altar? The example of sin is there in spades but the example of religious leaders that young people want to follow is simply not there.
And allowing women to be clergy and changing the celibacy rules will have nothing to do with encouraging sin - nothing. The early church allowed men to marry.
Big picture - What you are seeing now is a massive power struggle between the ultra conservative Bishops/Cardinals who do not want to see change and the new order that wants to change things. Pope Francis as flawed as he is, is trying to appoint Bishops and Cardinals that want to see change in the church. The longer he stays the more votes the next Pope gets. The next Pope will be the one that institutes change or keeps the status quo. Francis health is not great by the way and the other side knows that. The longer the more conservative Bishops and Cardinals stay, the higher odds the next Pope is more conservative. It's a classic power struggle. But during the struggle you can see the church has lost its way. Get your popcorn because this is just the beginning.
If in fact Francis knew about McCarrick - which he probably did - he needs to resign. The McCarrick thing was one of the worst kept secrets ever by the way. Many priests knew or heard about it from our area.
As the struggle continues and the church does what is does best which is drag its feet, we will continue to lose more and more of the next generation. Why would they want to follow church leaders who deceive and protect their legacy instead of protecting children, seminarians and others AND who do not recognize women on the altar? The example of sin is there in spades but the example of religious leaders that young people want to follow is simply not there.
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Agree with almost all of what you say, with the exception of the rules you think Jesus would make or not make. I agree about Communion, however, particularly for divorcees. When they deny it to supposedly Catholic politicians who act/legislate otherwise, I don't have a problem with it.
In addition, how can a psychiatrist/psychologist treat a schizophrenic when they themselves have never had schizophrenia? Can a certified marriage counsellor ever get divorced? Most priests have had enough training, and have enough knowledge of human nature to do it well. I don't think one has to have been married to act as a sounding board when there is marital discord, particularly regarding marriage within the framework of the sacrament.
You speak as if people leaving the Church hasn't been happening for the last 50 years. People don't like the rules, and starting with the sexual revolution in the mid1960's, they left in droves. People are threatened by the truth, and deny an existence of the objective right and wrong in our society. THAT has been the #1 cause. Through these scandals, the Church has done itself no favors, but that's just window dressing. I have friends who seldom go, or stopped going because their kids didn't like going, or it conflicted too often with sports schedules. The loss of universal truth, and moral relativism started this ball rolling long ago. Want proof? The next time you observe someone doing something wrong (red light running, littering, whatever), go and let them know about it. I would wager the response will not be amicable, and probably consist of 2 words.
I'm speaking about my own experiences with my own kids, nieces and nephews and my brother, brothers in law and sisters and sisters in law. I'm speaking about the few people I still know that go to church from my Catholic grammar school classes. Also the kids I got to know in my church that I taught CCD to and/or coached in sports that I got to know. That is the core of my experiences/observations for the most part. Many are turned off for various reasons but most are so angry right now even though a lot of this has gone on in the past and is coming out now. A high percentage of those people are not regular church goers any more but a higher percentage are good people nevertheless.
I think we're on the same side of this, honestly. Obviously, we care about our Church, and what has been allowed to continue, especially after it was supposedly "fixed" 10 years ago, hurts.
It's interesting. I'm not a regular church goer, but America has absolutely lost its moral relativism over the years. So many ignorant, selfish and mean-spirited people in the world today. Little sense of right and wrong and a disregard for rules/authority. The symptoms are everywhere: disregard for human life, cleanliness, structure, traditions, the greater good, doing the right thing, the proliferation and acceptance of curse words in general discourse, etc.
We are heading down a dark path as a society.
We are heading down a dark path as a society.
