This board has complained about relationships with South Orange for years. Hopefully this will help.
OT: Town to Gown
- Thread starter SetonHall2000
- Start date
"Everyone belongs here"? Nice in theory but not so sure I buy it as it relates to Seton Hall. When was the last time anyone saw any signs in town welcoming students and their families back for the new academic year? I haven't been through South Orange this year but I doubt they are breaking out any welcome wagons for our Pirates. Ms. Collum says she is originally from Starkvill, Mississippi, home of Mississippi State University. What is she doing to make South Orange anything close to a welcoming college town? I'm asking this seriously because I honestly have no idea.
Video is a nice gesture but South Orange has a long, long, long way to go.
Video is a nice gesture but South Orange has a long, long, long way to go.
This board is a cancer. Video is a nice gesture, maybe a step in the right direction, and post 1 is a post of disbelief and post 2 is about the crappy weather. Amazing.
Second best video I have ever seen shot from the train station in South Orange. Zaddy, if you see this, your crazy, silent movie for your communications class will always be the best. Agree with Sami...when someone extends an olive branch, you take it. Step in the right direction. Why not Seton Hall?
Nice job by Sheena. I hope she stays as Village Pres for a long time.
I've done a lot of work on town-gown relations on the institutional side for a number of private and public schools and universities, so I can appreciate how rare this sort of outreach from a municipal government is. I can't cal it unprecedented, but I'm not aware of another town that has extended an olive branch this way. Yes, it's easy enough to make a two-minute video, but it's more than most governing bodies can muster in this situation.
Like any other relationship of this sort, there are going to be plenty of opportunities for cooperation and synergy (gross corporate word, but it fits here), but also sources of inherent conflict. Those are totally unavoidable, especially when one town is a host body for a large entity that pays no property tax to that municipality while reaping the benefits of many of its services. That's why it's important for Seton Hall to also extend itself to be a good neighbor, while reminding South Orange of all the good it brings to the fabric of the village, because while it might not all be obvious at first blush, it is considerable. And it works both ways.
I'll consider this outreach by the village as an extremely gracious nod toward working together to make sure Seton Hall and South Orange are productive partners. And it sure is good to have a Pirate leading the village!
Like any other relationship of this sort, there are going to be plenty of opportunities for cooperation and synergy (gross corporate word, but it fits here), but also sources of inherent conflict. Those are totally unavoidable, especially when one town is a host body for a large entity that pays no property tax to that municipality while reaping the benefits of many of its services. That's why it's important for Seton Hall to also extend itself to be a good neighbor, while reminding South Orange of all the good it brings to the fabric of the village, because while it might not all be obvious at first blush, it is considerable. And it works both ways.
I'll consider this outreach by the village as an extremely gracious nod toward working together to make sure Seton Hall and South Orange are productive partners. And it sure is good to have a Pirate leading the village!
Source my understanding is that SHU has purchased some housing in SO and is in fact paying taxes on that housing to SO to be a good neighbor. Not sure of the numbers or % but SHU is well aware of being a good neighbor. Have a friend who has been a SO cop for a long time and he has his episodes with student drinking etc. But he gets it and does what he has to. Says many in SO govt and on the police force treat SHU with disdain and he says he has never understood that because of all the business SHU brings to SO. Hopefully times are a changing. I think both SHU and South Orange can benefit from improving relations and this is a great step.
Most institutions have some sort of arrangements with their host towns to channel money to them in lieu of of property taxes. They are always quite a bit less than they would actually be paying on their property under a typical assessment, but its something they do despite not being bound to it. Honestly, this is really the greatest source of friction between institutions and local governments, but why on earth would anyone pay millions of dollars to town governments if they weren't legally obligated to?
Everything Source says is right on the money. The payment in lieu of taxes is usually arrived at by some percentage of the emergency services that the non-profit entity is believed to use. If it doesn't make the Village happy, I don't know if I'd recommend breaking the bank, because you are always going to have some resistance, regardless.
Part of me still knows there is some anti-Catholicism involved, and to some extent a sort of condescending disdain by many Ivy-educated millionaires filling the trains in the morning. Having seen the same kind of push-back for the expansions at Villanova and Georgetown, however, it may be the type of thing that "happens everywhere."
Having a mayor who is a SHU grad is a tremendous help, and it may finally be paying dividends.
Part of me still knows there is some anti-Catholicism involved, and to some extent a sort of condescending disdain by many Ivy-educated millionaires filling the trains in the morning. Having seen the same kind of push-back for the expansions at Villanova and Georgetown, however, it may be the type of thing that "happens everywhere."
Having a mayor who is a SHU grad is a tremendous help, and it may finally be paying dividends.
In some states where land owned by colleges and universities is not subject to local property taxes, the state government reimburses the local governments for part of the tax revenue that the local government would otherwise have collected. In other cases, the institution makes a direct payment to the local government (which would not otherwise be reimbursed) simply to maintain good relations.
From the New Jersey League of Municipalities:
"Further, the State Constitution and State Statutes exempt many properties from local property taxes. These include State owned properties. In recognition of the local services provided to these properties, in 1977 the State enacted a "Payment in lieu of taxes' (PILOT) program. The PILOT was never fully funded, with most municipalities receiving, at best, 30% of their entitlement. In 1994, PILOT was folded, with numerous other revenue replacement programs, into the Consolidated Municipal Property Tax Relief Act (CMPTRA) program, which has rarely kept pace with inflation."
Some towns have begun assessing a tax on students to offset the strain on municipal services.
It's always going to be a love/hate relationship no matter where you are. Hopefully it's time for the Hall to see a little of that love
Even that language from the New Jersey League of Municipalities shows some of the disconnect: "... with most municipalities receiving, at best, 30% of their entitlement." That's the thing: they're not entitled to it (because of the schools' nonprofit status), and PILOTs are not compulsory. They are good-will, diplomatic gestures made toward towns to acknowledge the fact that the schools do benefit from a number of town services. Towns are often slow to recognize the economic impact of college and university communities, however, which typically far outpace any hypothetical property-tax revenue these institutions would provide.
My favorite example is Princeton University and Princeton Borough/Township. The town wants them to increase their PILOT, which is already pretty generous, though nothing compared to if the university was a true ratable. But here you have a case where the municipality only exists because of the university! Sure, it might be there, but if that institution had never opened its doors there, it would be no more a destination than any other nondescript little hamlet along that way; nearby Kingston might be a suitable comparison. Instead, the university is an economic engine that accounts for hundreds of millions of dollars being pumped into the economy of Princeton every year. And that is a conservative estimate. And yet, the township wants to extract actual property taxes from them. It's incredible.
I agree, that's why I included "In other cases, the institution makes a direct payment to the local government (which would not otherwise be reimbursed) simply to maintain good relations" directly before that quote.
Also note that NJLM is functionally a State sanctioned lobby group for local government
Also note that NJLM is functionally a State sanctioned lobby group for local government
Well, since someone called the police believing there was a suicide attempt, I'd have to say the acting in my film was pretty good too!
I have no ill will against people of South Orange who oppose expansion at SHU. This is common place between residents and colleges, it may be more pronounced at SHU because of our relatively small land locked campus and location.
Just read the papers, every day residents are fighting any type of new developments or expansion in their neighborhoods. Recently, Ridgewood and Valley Hospital, people in Paramus are against a CarMax coming to Route 17, I live in Cedar Grove: a huge townhouse development is coming that most residents oppose (including me), plus countless other housing, shopping center, healthcare expansions. With the internet and social media lot easier to drum up support and get the word out to fight expansion projects.
Just read the papers, every day residents are fighting any type of new developments or expansion in their neighborhoods. Recently, Ridgewood and Valley Hospital, people in Paramus are against a CarMax coming to Route 17, I live in Cedar Grove: a huge townhouse development is coming that most residents oppose (including me), plus countless other housing, shopping center, healthcare expansions. With the internet and social media lot easier to drum up support and get the word out to fight expansion projects.
God i wish for 1 yr we could just delete swtin hall and see what happens. Businesses fail, newark rolls in, etc
This video is a terrific point of outreach, IMO. It all starts with communication; identifying the lines of communication and leaving them open positively, notions that have alluded these two partners in years past.
South Orange residents also play a role in this, of course. At the moment South Orange homes are undergoing widespread renovations and restorations, obviously driving up property values, and, in turn, there is a sensitivity of ensuring the students of SHU are well behaved and respectful of the community at large. And we all know what's beyond the gates of SHU on the other side, which is another issue altogether.
South Orange is a beautiful town with gorgeous homes of great character, from up the hill of South Orange Avenue, through the Historic Montrose District and across the Village through the crown of Prospect Street moving towards Maplewood from Our Lady of Sorrows. Take a drive through sometime and you'll see multiple houses on every block being renovated; it's widescale.
South Orange residents also play a role in this, of course. At the moment South Orange homes are undergoing widespread renovations and restorations, obviously driving up property values, and, in turn, there is a sensitivity of ensuring the students of SHU are well behaved and respectful of the community at large. And we all know what's beyond the gates of SHU on the other side, which is another issue altogether.
South Orange is a beautiful town with gorgeous homes of great character, from up the hill of South Orange Avenue, through the Historic Montrose District and across the Village through the crown of Prospect Street moving towards Maplewood from Our Lady of Sorrows. Take a drive through sometime and you'll see multiple houses on every block being renovated; it's widescale.
Anyone know who has that giant house with the pillars on scotland and ralston? Passed that thing every day. Ralston st in general has some pretty cool houses.
It was a very nice gesture by Madam President. She is doing a tremendous job in trying to build a lasting relationship between the Village and the School. University weekend.
SHU pays pilots but SO residents bitch it isn't enough. Whenever the university tries to do anything the good townspeople throw up roadblocks at every turn and try to make it impossible, sometimes they succeed in shooting down the university. I've heard people associated with Seton Hall say they don't feel welcome in town, sad that parents and students feel that way. Sorry, but one video from one person doesn't change all of that. The town does not feel welcoming, sorry but that's the way I feel.
The university takes care of their properties and students do a lot of volunteer work. Does South Orange realize what it would be without Seton Hall? I really don't think they do because if they did their attitudes would change greatly!
They moved to South Orange in 1860. Seton Hall has been there longer than South Orange! The university originally owned several hundred acres, they never should have sold all of that property!Seton Hall established 1856
South Orange Incorporated 1869
It would benefit both parties to have a strong connection and relationship to one another. For The Hall, the benefits speak for themselves, and for South Orange, it would help to keep perception segregated from the neighboring areas that have fallen on tough times.
Outside looking in, I'm willing to bet the village government and Seton Hall are on the same page but the residents are not. And the elected leaders are supposed to do right by the residents.
If anyone says otherwise, feel free to let me know.
If anyone says otherwise, feel free to let me know.
Quite possibly. Several years back, there was a movement by South Orange to "secede" from the Oranges, and rename the town "Upper Mountain" or some such tripe. Whether the local government or the townsfolk were behind it, it reeked of implied racism. Given the very liberal makeup of the town, the hypocrisy was thick.
The biggest, most underlying issue is really the taxes, and in South Orange, it's especially so. Township residents shoulder an exceptionally heavy property-tax tax burden (even for New Jersey), while the town has little in the way of large commercial property-tax ratables (no big-box stores; the local economy is based in lots of mom-and-pop shops in the village), and they see a large entity like a university functioning as tax-exempt on a very large swath of land while sucking up municipal services (party true, and part perception). It breeds resentment, and while there are smaller, ancillary issues, that resentment is really what fuels the bad part of the relationship. It's universal; all colleges and universities deal with this in their relationships with their towns - as I said, even Princeton, the very reason Princeton Boro/Township exist at all. And if those people feel cheated by the sun of the academic universe when it comes to taxes, you can bet South Orange villagers feel it, too.
It's never going to go away completely, but as I said, it's up to the university to successfully make villages aware of the value it adds to the community, in cultural AND financial ways. I would dare say the latter is more significant than the former, and likely exceeds the amount of property taxes they are not paying.
On it's face, Source, that's true, but if I'm buying a house in South Orange for $900K and it has a $30K property tax bill, it's like complaining about the smell of cow dung when you buy next to a farm. Having spoken with both residents of SOV, and the folks at Seton Hall involved with "outreach," the ancillary issues are more significant than they seem from the outside.
Couldn't agree more about the taxes, but you know that's how people are. There are literally people who buy houses next to a farm and then lobby the town to do something about the smell. Like, that actually happens. So when you take an issue that's even slightly more abstract than that, I think it's easy for the same people to confuse their feelings on finer, more pointed issues with the larger, more fundamental ones. Of course there are legitimate ancillary issues - the university does unleash college kids on the village at night - but it's just part of the deal. What comes with that is mostly unavoidable. Seton Hall has to do a better job of promoting the good they do - both as an institution and as a vessel for community-minded student groups - for the township.
As it is anywhere, it's a relationship with guaranteed faultlines, but good communications efforts and honest diplomacy can go a long way toward making everyone think and feel better about it all.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I wonder if he's still there? I loved that class, and did a film that I wont say was great, but did include scenes shot at The Great Falls, McDonald's, and a graveyard.
I remember that well. I think it might have been South Mountain, akin to the reservation?
They wanted to disassociated from the Oranges altogether instead of having to clarify, "No, not that Orange. That's the bad one."
Of course much of the plight in the areas such as Newark, Irvington, and so forth is the same as what we see in other areas of the country that were highlighted last Presidential election; commerce leaves and the areas fall into despair with widespread drug use, corruption, crime, etc. Doesn't matter if it's predominantly white - like in some of the old Rust Belt or Appalachia - or predominantly non-white - like in Newark, Camden.
Absolutely agree! I hope the mayor (forgive me if that's not her title in their local government), well-liked enough to get elected, can be our best liaison.
I have read about that idiocy, too, and laughed when I realized mentioning it poked a hole in my own point!
If you listened to the entire video, Shaheen with out a doubt, will make a GREAT head coach. Seton Hall NOW has the opportunity to keep him here and when the chance comes..give the job to him. There is no one more loyal to Seton Hall than Shaheen Holloway.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
IDK. He was the best though. Except when he ripped me to shreds for a paper I wrote that made a feeble attempt to draw parallels between Star Wars and The Shining.
I used to enjoy showing up at his broom closet of an office whenever I had questions about a random movie I had just watched. I think I finally had him stumped when I asked him what he thought David Lynch's message was in Lost Highway.
