Certainly a fair point. I'm sure there are many criteria for posters' choices: I look at the player's contribution to a team that wins and gets into post-season play. That's were some talented guys fall short. I see we were 13-12 in Nick's big year, and 16-7, 15-9 when he was a junior and sophomore. Were we self-eliminating from the NIT in those days, or was that tournament so strong then, we would not have gotten in with those records?
Who’s your all time starting 5?
- Thread starter HallBall02
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Yeah you’re right. Mosely my brother remembers a little and talks of his greatness. I was just barely seeing the Earth.
And Davies I know was an innovator with dribbling and even coached. I suppose you’d have to put him on the first team.
And I guess you’d have Honey Russel coaching over PJ
How about taking this in a somewhat different direction that opens it up to a few more players, yet is still extremely loaded:
Greatest SHU players from Essex County:
Regan
Bryant
Mosley
Avent
Tynes
Knight....
There are others out there, including Luther who was really from Irvington
Greatest SHU players from Essex County:
Regan
Bryant
Mosley
Avent
Tynes
Knight....
There are others out there, including Luther who was really from Irvington
My all era team, in order, and by position
Bob Davies - Hall of Fame
Walter Dukes - Best player on our championship team
Mark Bryant - Committed to SHU when we were terrible, believed the NCAA was possible, and made it happen
Terry Dehere - I don't know what "IT" is, but he had it.
Andre Barrett - I guess it's splitting hairs with Shaheen, but Barrett is my pick
If I want to play bigger, I would swap Anthony Avent for Barrett.
Bob Davies - Hall of Fame
Walter Dukes - Best player on our championship team
Mark Bryant - Committed to SHU when we were terrible, believed the NCAA was possible, and made it happen
Terry Dehere - I don't know what "IT" is, but he had it.
Andre Barrett - I guess it's splitting hairs with Shaheen, but Barrett is my pick
If I want to play bigger, I would swap Anthony Avent for Barrett.
Post 2000 Team:
Barrett
Powell
Fuquan Edwin
Eddie Griffin
Angel Delgado
Bench:
Q Mcknight
Paul Gause
Darius Lane
Ish Sanogo
Ro Gill
Bench for defensive versatility and fit
Barrett
Powell
Fuquan Edwin
Eddie Griffin
Angel Delgado
Bench:
Q Mcknight
Paul Gause
Darius Lane
Ish Sanogo
Ro Gill
Bench for defensive versatility and fit
Obviously IW is better than most of the player's on the roster, I just preferred to put together a roster based on fit. I like Andre Barrett better as the starter on this roster and no way IW is riding the bench.
I have had the honor of seeing them all play . I saw my first Seton Hall game in 1939. My top 5' are
Davies
Dukes
Werkman
Bryant
Dehere
Davies
Dukes
Werkman
Bryant
Dehere
Big East Only
PG. Holloway over Barrett
SG. Terry Dehere and no Powell is not close
SF McCloud over Karnishivas
PF Mark Bryant
C Anthony Avent in a close one over Delgado.
The most talented player I ever saw was Eddie Griffin. Whitehead didn’t play long enough to make the list.
That’s the team I’ll go to war with any day.
PG. Holloway over Barrett
SG. Terry Dehere and no Powell is not close
SF McCloud over Karnishivas
PF Mark Bryant
C Anthony Avent in a close one over Delgado.
The most talented player I ever saw was Eddie Griffin. Whitehead didn’t play long enough to make the list.
That’s the team I’ll go to war with any day.
It’s too hard to do a top 5 of all time. You can probably pick from 15-20 names that anyone can argue to be on there pretty well.
Also how is it weighted? Is it top 5 talents?, top 5 achievements? top 5 stats? top 5 pro career? All will change the names on team.
Even a big East era top 5 is too tough and subjective.
I think maybe a Willard coached Seton Hall top 5 can be doable or a top 5 in each decade.
Do you think Luther Wright who was drafted high was that much better than an Obiagu or a Dalembart that much better than a Gill? The big man era was different back then to now. Hard to compare.
Also how is it weighted? Is it top 5 talents?, top 5 achievements? top 5 stats? top 5 pro career? All will change the names on team.
Even a big East era top 5 is too tough and subjective.
I think maybe a Willard coached Seton Hall top 5 can be doable or a top 5 in each decade.
Do you think Luther Wright who was drafted high was that much better than an Obiagu or a Dalembart that much better than a Gill? The big man era was different back then to now. Hard to compare.
If I am correct Nick Galis never played in the Big East Conf. His senior year was one year before the conference started up.
Tom K
Tom K
Here are my winners for all time best.
I listed what I think is the 7 best at each position. Old timers I guessed position so I may be off. I mean the early 50’s teams had all the players under like 6 3 so I kinda just slotted them in.
I didn’t see 10 of these guys play including Werkman and Dukes but had to give them the edge with insane stats.
PG
Isaiah Whitehead (best)
Shaheen Holloway
Andre Barrett
Jordan Theodore
Ritchie Regan
Pep Saul
Eugene Harvey
SG
Terry Dehere (best)
Myles Powell
Jeremy Hazel
John Morton
Khadeen Carrington
Dan Callandrillo
Nick Galis
SF
Nick Werkman (best)
Andre Mccloud
Arturis Karnishivus
Andrew Gaze
Bob Davies
Adrian Griffin
Greg Tynes
Fuquan Edwin
PF
Eddie Griffin (best)
Mark Bryant
Anthony Avent
Sandro Mamu
Herb Pope
Jerry Walker
Kelly Whitney
C
Sam Dalembart
Ramon Ramos
Angel Delgado
Ro Gill
Luther Wright
Glenn Mosley
Walter Dukes (best)
en.m.wikipedia.org
I listed what I think is the 7 best at each position. Old timers I guessed position so I may be off. I mean the early 50’s teams had all the players under like 6 3 so I kinda just slotted them in.
I didn’t see 10 of these guys play including Werkman and Dukes but had to give them the edge with insane stats.
PG
Isaiah Whitehead (best)
Shaheen Holloway
Andre Barrett
Jordan Theodore
Ritchie Regan
Pep Saul
Eugene Harvey
SG
Terry Dehere (best)
Myles Powell
Jeremy Hazel
John Morton
Khadeen Carrington
Dan Callandrillo
Nick Galis
SF
Nick Werkman (best)
Andre Mccloud
Arturis Karnishivus
Andrew Gaze
Bob Davies
Adrian Griffin
Greg Tynes
Fuquan Edwin
PF
Eddie Griffin (best)
Mark Bryant
Anthony Avent
Sandro Mamu
Herb Pope
Jerry Walker
Kelly Whitney
C
Sam Dalembart
Ramon Ramos
Angel Delgado
Ro Gill
Luther Wright
Glenn Mosley
Walter Dukes (best)
Seton Hall Pirates men's basketball statistical leaders - Wikipedia
Good catch Tom. I went by memory and thought Galis' last year, Callandrillo's first, was the initial year of the Big East. But it actually was the following season.
MY ALL TIME TEAM
PG - BOB DAVIES
2G- DEHERE
SF- WERKMAN
PF- BRYANT
C- DUKES
2nd TEAM
PG - GALIS
2G- POWELL
SF- MOSLEY
PF- DELGADO
C- AVENT
BENCH
CALANDRILO
HOLLOWAY
BARRETT
WANZER
KARNISHOVAS
WALKER
REAGAN
ALL TIME FANS - GYRATIN JOE, RAY LOPEZ & BILL EYRES
Tom K
PG - BOB DAVIES
2G- DEHERE
SF- WERKMAN
PF- BRYANT
C- DUKES
2nd TEAM
PG - GALIS
2G- POWELL
SF- MOSLEY
PF- DELGADO
C- AVENT
BENCH
CALANDRILO
HOLLOWAY
BARRETT
WANZER
KARNISHOVAS
WALKER
REAGAN
ALL TIME FANS - GYRATIN JOE, RAY LOPEZ & BILL EYRES
Tom K
Interesting only one player and no starters from final four team. Unless by walker you mean Daryll, but I assume Jerry.
I agree:
Davies
Dukes
Bryant
Dehere
Werkman
Next group: Galis, Mosely, IW, Barrett, Calandrillo, Sha, Powell,
Make the List: Wanzer Regan, Avent, J Walker, Morton
Can't Forget; Saul, Ramos, Arturas, Sam D, Delgado, McCloud, Carrington, Hazel
Davies
Dukes
Bryant
Dehere
Werkman
Next group: Galis, Mosely, IW, Barrett, Calandrillo, Sha, Powell,
Make the List: Wanzer Regan, Avent, J Walker, Morton
Can't Forget; Saul, Ramos, Arturas, Sam D, Delgado, McCloud, Carrington, Hazel
I agree. John Morton should have been on the team I posted.
Don't agree with you on Angel. Bryant and Avent I believe were better. I would take Jerry Walker over Angel on my team, but you could make an argument that would be a tie.
Respectfully disagree. With the exception of Walter Dukes, Mark Bryant may be the best big man to ever play at Seton Hall.
He nearly single-handedly dragged the 1988 team to the NCAA Tournament.
Not really sure about that..... both definitely high quality, but I think Bryant had the edge. He paid his dues on outmatched teams early on, but his final month as a senior was comparable to what Whitehead did. Only in Bryant’s case, it was totally uncharted territory for the program. I think it’s possible that Mosley was better than all of them, but there was a huge difference in competition, along with the fact that he had to sit all of those games due to the NCAA suspension.
Mark was a big tough guy with a jumper. Our best big in my lifetime.
And great comparison to what Isaiah did, but in 88, every shu win was a shock till Mark tipped the scales. Bryant vs nova, now that was a performance.
And great comparison to what Isaiah did, but in 88, every shu win was a shock till Mark tipped the scales. Bryant vs nova, now that was a performance.
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There is a reason Bryant played for years and years in the NBA and the others didn’t. No doubt about it starting five on any all Seton team. Not a bad assistant coach for that team either with years of NBA coaching experience. If you saw him play you had to love him for coming to Seton Hall!
Let's face it, Seton Hall becoming what we became in the pj era was a pipedream, a fantasy. If anyone here saw it coming, you may be a genius, but I think more likely you were crazy. We were a nothing. Worst in class, for years and years. The Isaiah comparison is good cause he lead an resurgence too, but we had been there before. Bryant was a stake in the ground. Maybe now we can finally get better...maybe....
Did you see Bryant play? He played against the best big men in the history of the game. There was no better big man in the Big East era than Mark Bryant. Plus, Bryant wasn’t one dimensional- just an offensive player. Bryant could D up abs as a matter of fact, made his living as a defensive force in the NBA. Bryant averaged 16 and 20 points per game in his junior and senior year. Delgado never averaged those numbers.
Agreed. If you don’t start with Mark Bryant, you aren’t in the ballpark. I had sixth row seats for a Big East Tournament game where Bryant wore Patrick Ewing down in a losing effort. PATRICK EWING was a DREAM TEAMER. Mark had the longest NBA tenure of any Pirate. Never an all star, but always a relevant impact player. God bless him.
Werkman had career average 30 points and 14 rebounds.So more points than anyone and 4 plus more rebounds per game than Angel and more than twice the points that Angel had.How can he be left off any all time team.
Don’t mean to be a wise guy since I first saw Bryant play when he was in seventh grade and totally agree on how good he was, but he only crossed paths with Ewing as a freshman, and SHU lost in the then dreaded opening night game of the tournament and didn’t face Gtown. Maybe you had too many of those old Harry M Steven’s beers in the paper cups with the cellophane on top!
This is why comparing through eras can be challenging. The modern game is very different than the one that Nick Werkman played. I'm not knocking Nick as I never saw him play and for that matter, I'm not arguing that Angel Delgado belongs on an all-time Pirate team over Nick.
Nick played only three years and had no three-point line. The former certainly affected his point total as opposed to the other top scorers in school history. Having not seen him play, I can't comment on how many points he might amassed with a three-point shot available.
By the same token in just three years, he is Seton Hall's all-time leader in field goal attempts and free throw attempts but is nowhere to be found among the top 20 in shooting percentage in either category. As it is, there are only five pre-1980 players among the top 20 in field goal percentage
Shooting percentages were lower in Nick's day (and earlier) which means more rebounds. Angel's 13.1 average is 2016-17 is the only post 1976-77 season among the top 20. Angel had 400 more rebounds than Nick but played in roughly twice the number of games (nobody among the top 20 on the school's list played prior to 1984-85 season). There are many more games played today than years ago.
All that doesn't take into account the competition level but in the early 1960's we were playing the likes of Scranton, Upsala and St. Anselm alongside Georgetown, Providence and Villanova among others.
That's a long winded way of saying there are lots of variables to take into account when trying to compare players that played over a 75-year span.
I didn't pick any one- or two-year guys unless they were really part of something, like at a minimum, the Sweet Sixteen. I also took the intangibles into consideration - what kind of winner were they? Good teammate? None of that left room for Griffin, even though he might be the most talented player in our history.
Werkman’s FG pct numbers were .481, .440 and .436.
Those are crazy good numbers for someone who took so many shots away from the basket.
Those are crazy good numbers for someone who took so many shots away from the basket.
A few things about Nick Werkman. First those shooting percentages were very good for his era. Secondly he scored about 80% of his baskets in the paint, Every team played a box and one on him with the whole D collapsing on him once he got the ball. He had tremendous moves and was constantly drawing fouls, Consider all those points & rebounds in the paint and realize that he was only 6-3 playing and scoring at will at & around the basket. Also Freshmen were not eligible back then so he probably scores 3000+ pints if he had that extra year. And by the way he did average over 30 PPG on the freshman team also.
Tom K
