Seton Hall's Herb Pope makes miracle comeback

[Halldan1]

Herb Pope was dead.

As Tony Testa rushed up the back stairwell at the far end of Seton Hall’s Walsh Gym, there was shouting, commotion, panic..................

http://www.nj.com/setonhall/index.ssf/2010/10/back_from_the_dead_herb_pope_x.html

 

[TheHall87]

I liked Dana O'Neil's article and Brendan Prunty does an equally fine job here.

Herb Pope is a very fortunate young man and I hope for good things for him.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

dan would you be able to state here or pay site if herb has put back most of his body mass and where he is conditioning wise?

 

[Seton75]

What a story. As one Dad to another, I can tell Herb that the wonder of seeing his daughter in kindergarden, and going on her journey through life is gonna be the best memory in your life when you lay your head down at night. Enjoy it and I am glad this miracle happened for you.

 

[Halldan1]

Originally posted by NYShoreGuy:
dan would you be able to state here or pay site if herb has put back most of his body mass and where he is conditioning wise?

I'll speak to that on the Trove later today.

 

[double-00]

Just imagine how lucky Herb Pope is , for this to happen in the gym right around medical people , instead of in his apartment or off campus somewhere .

With this problem corrected , perhaps we'll see even better play from Herb ?

Here's to you , Herb Pope !

 

[CerasolisGhost]

“I lost a month of my life,” Willard said. “We really didn’t know. You see someone that has such a bright future and go through this. I’ll be honest ? that first night, I cried and I cried. ... As the days went on, it got worse for us, because we didn’t know what was going on.”

Willard is the man.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

must have been real tough for gonzo and his staff too. there seemed to be a pretty good relationship there too, all of gonzo's hysterics aside.

 

[Halldan1]

The previous staff also reached out and visited Pope at the hospital.

 

[PiratePride]

Miracle indeed..... thank God !!!

You know, I have to laugh at myself a little bit.... I take so much for granted and complain about the slightest discomforts and petty annoyances. Then I read about the things that a guy like Herb has had to overcome and issues he's faced with his helath and still faces with his immediate family and I thank God for the blessings that I have. My admiration for a Herb Pope just grows and grows.

 

[Clare777]

Never underestimate the power of prayer. This board was filled with prayer intentions for Herb Pope. Thank you Jesus!

 

[boatshu]

Originally posted by halldan1:

Originally posted by NYShoreGuy:
dan would you be able to state here or pay site if herb has put back most of his body mass and where he is conditioning wise?

I'll speak to that on the Trove later today.

Willard spoke to that in Carino's Q&A. He mentions that Pope is about 75% back to being where he was as a dominant player.

 

[92shugrad]

Two terrific articles today.
I've said it before but it bears repeating - the fact that this young man has cheated death twice tells me he's here for a purpose more important than basketball.
I'm still looking forward to what he can do on the court this season, though!
Great observation in Dana O'Neill's article, too - here's a guy who seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time for most of his life and when it mattered the most, he was in the right place at the right time.
You just can't explain stuff like that.

 

[forceten]

Originally posted by Clare777:
Never underestimate the power of prayer. This board was filled with prayer intentions for Herb Pope. Thank you Jesus!

I assume you also blame Jesus/God for his having this genetic congenital heart condition in the first place?
This post was edited on 10/12 12:30 AM by forceten

 

[Bobbie Solo]

ouch...got him.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

forceten, you are technically incorrect, there was nothing genetic about that, it was congenital

 

[dr bill]

I am not of the Catholic faith. Nonetheless, my feeling is that G-d put all the "player's" in place in a holy place, Seton Hall, in order to show us His miracle. Think of the odds of this comeback. Got Faith?

 

[Bobbie Solo]

wait....what?

 

[dr bill]

Too deep for you Solo?

 

[Bobbie Solo]

oof. just stop.

 

[dr bill]

Just read the simple stuff Solo.

 

[forceten]

Originally posted by dr bill:
I am not of the Catholic faith. Nonetheless, my feeling is that G-d put all the "player's" in place in a holy place, Seton Hall, in order to show us His miracle. Think of the odds of this comeback. Got Faith?

Yeah, that's awesome. Let's pick a random kid and near kill him to show us all how powerful God is. A great miracle. Instead of, say, I don't know, making Haiti livable or stopping genocides in Africa or all the other shit God doesn't care about directly manipulating. But killing Herb Pope and then letting humans act quickly and save him, sure.

As for genetic or congenital - apologies. Either way, the original point was unaffected by the distinction.

 

[catholicman]

Forceten: You could find some very powerful answers to your questions about God in the late great John Paul II's Crossing the Threshold of Hope, which I have linked below. When you open the pdf, take a look at each of the these chapters: "Why is there so much evil in the world"
and "Why does God tolerate Suffering."

For a much more in-depth presentation read John Paul II's "The Christian Meaning of Human Suffering." It can probably be found on-line at Vatican.VA. It is an excellent, deeply philosophical and theological discussion of the subject. It would give you much to ponder.
This post was edited on 10/12 5:59 AM by catholicman

Crossing the Threshold of Hope

 

[catholicman]

For a sample of JPII's "The Christian Meaning of Human Suffering" take a look at the exerpt I will post in Life off the Ship. OR try the link below.
This post was edited on 10/12 5:09 AM by catholicman

The Christian Meaning of Human Suffering

 

[Belluno]

"The old order changeth, yielding place to new, 240
And God fulfils Himself in many ways...
I have lived my life, and that which I have done
May He within Himself make pure! but thou,
If thou shouldst never see my face again,
Pray for my soul. More things are wrought by prayer
Than this world dreams of." Tennyson

 

[Old_alum]

Originally posted by forceten:

Yeah, that's awesome. Let's pick a random kid and near kill him to show us all how powerful God is. A great miracle. Instead of, say, I don't know, making Haiti livable or stopping genocides in Africa or all the other shit God doesn't care about directly manipulating. But killing Herb Pope and then letting humans act quickly and save him, sure.

As for genetic or congenital - apologies. Either way, the original point was unaffected by the distinction.

FT, when you are ready to seek answers to your questions, the other citations are very good. But first you, yourself, must truly care about finding those answers.

In a nutshell, love is more important to one's happiness than is suffering or even than is life on this planet, itself. God uses a different set of rules -- or criteria --- than most people do --- even many thoughtful people.

 

[forceten]

Thanks Catholicman. I downloaded the PDF and will indeed read it.

I'm still quite skeptical at crediting God for good events but refusing to blame God for bad events, especially ones like this that are completely out of human control. You can't have yin without yang if you're going to have yin at all. If neither exists that's a different story but that would suggest no God.

 

[Seton75]

If God exists, do we really know why he allows bad things to happen, or do great thinkers try to figure out how the existance of God can co-exist with the evil of the world?

 

[forceten]

Originally posted by Seton75:
If God exists, do we really know why he allows bad things to happen, or do great thinkers try to figure out how the existance of God can co-exist with the evil of the world?

Either or both. It's simply that God is presented as perfect but the Bible contradicts this both explicitly and through inference and logic.

What upsets me is nonsense that people attribute and the faithful just nod serenely as if they're saying sage statements instead of absolute unfounded crap. Like the guy above, and I apologize for calling him out after that statement I just typed but that was absolute crap. God didn't put Herb Pope in a holy place nor did God kill him just to show a miracle. It just happened. It's chance. It's life. It's illogical. If you believed that you absolutely would have to believe that God also created the heart condition in the first place. If you believe that you have to believe God is insecure because he would be preaching to the choir. It would be more impressive and effectual had he done it in a secular place to a nonbeliever in front of nonbelievers. There is no gain otherwise. Furthermore, while I understand that people try to rationalize evil in the world and all of that (and I haven't had a chance to read Catholicman's PDF) it strikes me as odd that an all-powerful, all-knowing entity (who, presumably, can predict/see the future) is surprised by events, doesn't take action to prevent them, and intervenes in chintzy events but allows great injustices to happen often and for prolonged lengths of time. It's completely incongruous with basic logic and it also contradicts much of the things the bible says about God.

The simple point is God had little to do with Pope having the attack and with his recovery. Sometimes we need to give credit to the people who acted and saved the person and stop marginalizing their efforts. And if you refuse to do that, that's your right -- but then you have to accept that God deserves blame when shit goes wrong.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Forceten:
You're clearly an intelligent young man. Don't make the mistake of confusing faith with logic. Faith requires suspending what we know about what we can see, touch and experience. You can scream for scientific proof and even-handed justice until you're blue in the face, but you will not come to understand what it takes to have faith that way. It's pretty staggering hubris to assume that you know all there is to know about God's will and methods, especially when you don't know all there is to know -- not even close -- about the knowable.

Christ's contemporaries thought he was full of it, and they had the advantage of seeing him do things that put David Blaine to shame.

Have a little respect, instead of calling what people believe "unfounded crap." Have some humility, too; much smarter people than you believed. St. Thomas Aquinas was one of the greatest thinkers in the history of man. Einstein acknowledged the order of the universe, and the probability of a creator (though he believed that God removed himself from all day to day workings of life on Earth and let us run ourselves into ruin). You root for a Catholic school; I could never be a fan of any entity or team whose mission or identity I found so mockable. And you just keep at it -- take it to Life off the Ship.

 

[Halldan1]

I'll be moving this thread to the off the ship board shortly.

 

[forceten]

I know that I shouldn't confuse faith with logic and I also agree with the notion that rationality and faith are opposite ends of the same spectrum. I don't assume that I know all about god but I'm trying (and failing) to keep it brief since this really is, as you point out, off topic. I just thought that poster's post was off topic and off base as well and stuff like that bothers me because it assumes so much and ignores much more. I know we don't know everything - not even close!!! But that lack of understanding does not imply nor does it prove nor does it suggest a supreme being.

I am not calling total religion unfounded crap but just statements like the one that the poster I responded to made. It is not based in anything but his/her personal opinion but somehow when faith comes into it you can say practically anything and few people call you out on it.

It's not an intelligence thing re: faith, either. It is what it is. I don't find Seton Hall's mission or identity mockable either. Obviously I care about the school or I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't donate. There are a lot of agnostics and atheists that I went to school at SHU with along with people of other faiths (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc). The greatest thing about Seton Hall was its ability to integrate people of all minds and backgrounds and not force them to change. It's a religiously founded school but it wasn't a proselytizing one and I think there's extreme value in that. It was, truly, a liberal arts school and one that allowed for these diverse opinions to be discussed. Hopefully we can continue that and not have "a bullet to the brain for the atheists" (Roland Orzabal).

I'll stop here because I didn't intend for this thread to be hijacked. The original purpose was to celebrate Herb's recovery and return to the team and for that, regardless of why we think it happened, we should all be thrilled.

I am willing to discuss these topics on that other board but I don't check it often. Most probably don't.

 

[Old_alum]

Originally posted by Forceten:
It's simply that God is presented as perfect but the Bible contradicts this both explicitly and through inference and logic.

If you would be willing, I would appreciate it if you would give me only a few examples of these contradictions, explicit, inferential and logical.

Originally posted by Forceten:
What upsets me is nonsense that people attribute and the faithful just nod serenely as if they're saying sage statements instead of absolute unfounded crap.

Again, it would be helpful if you explained what it is you are calling ‘‘nonsense’‘.

Originally posted by Forceten:
God didn't put Herb Pope in a holy place nor did God kill him just to show a miracle. It just happened. It's chance. It's life. It's illogical. If you believed that you absolutely would have to believe that God also created the heart condition in the first place.

Please explain how it is ‘‘illogical’‘ for an active, all-powerful God --- who could set the universe on its course --- also to be able to predetermine that one individual (e.g. Herb Pope) would have a heart condition.

Originally posted by Forceten:
If you believe that you have to believe God is insecure because he would be preaching to the choir.

I didn’t cover this insecurity in my psych classes. Why must it be that God is insecure? Are you a member of the choir? Could it be that God arranged this entire crisis just to save the soul of one nonbeliever nicknamed Forceten in front of a group called Rivals sports board?

Originally posted by Forceten:
It would be more impressive and effectual had he done it in a secular place to a nonbeliever in front of nonbelievers. There is no gain otherwise.

What is it you think God wants to gain? Did Jesus not say it is not the healthy but the ill who need a physician?

Originally posted by Forceten:
it strikes me as odd that an all-powerful, all-knowing entity (who, presumably, can predict/see the future) is surprised by events, doesn't take action to prevent them, and intervenes in chintzy events but allows great injustices to happen often and for prolonged lengths of time. It's completely incongruous with basic logic and it also contradicts much of the things the bible says about God.

Why do you say He was ‘‘surprised’’?
Why would he want to ‘‘prevent’’ them?


Perhaps to God, whatever happens during these few millennia man is on earth are mere footnotes, like NFL passing stats. Perhaps God is solely worried about the final score of the earth: how many of his creations choose ‘‘love’’ over ‘‘selfishness’’.
Why do you say this is incongruous? And what are these contradictions you repeatedly speak of?

Originally posted by Forceten:
I know that I shouldn't confuse faith with logic and I also agree with the notion that rationality and faith are opposite ends of the same spectrum. I don't assume that I know all about god

I would take issue with this and with Donnie’s following quote. Faith and reason are not opposite ends of the same spectrum. Neither does Faith require one to ‘‘suspend…what we know about what we can see, touch and experience’‘. And finally, IMHO Faith is the MOST logical concept I know.

Originally posted by donnie_baseball:
Don't make the mistake of confusing faith with logic. Faith requires suspending what we know about what we can see, touch and experience.

Originally posted by Forceten:
It's not an intelligence thing re: faith, either…. The greatest thing about Seton Hall was its ability to integrate people of all minds and backgrounds and not force them to change. It's a religiously founded school but it wasn't a proselytizing one

God does not want to ‘‘force’’ anyone ‘‘to change’’. If He had so willed, it would have been done and it would have obviated His only command: to love.



There is a difference between (1) empirical evidence; (2) logic; and (3) Proof.



God wants man to ‘‘choose’’ to be unselfish. If, in this life, God were to reward only the just and punish only the unjust, then there would be no real ''choice''; there would be a de facto gun at your head. You would choose ‘‘just’’ out of selfishness, not out of love.

God has given us a surfeit of evidence supporting everything the Church teaches. There’s just no empirical ‘‘proof’’. To God, pain and agony in this life are dwarfed by eternal ‘‘love’’.



If you had to suffer a painful death --- or painful experience --- in order to save someone you loved, would you do it?




Jesus did.



Do you believe that there is a ‘‘reason’’ for man being on earth? Or is it all a cosmic accident in your opinion?

Do you believe there is ‘‘good’’ or ‘‘evil’’ in this world? If so, how do you determine it?



I look forward to our dialogue.
This post was edited on 10/12 5:21 PM by Old_alum