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A commentary after the repreal of prop 8

PIR8TES

All World
Jun 4, 2001
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Today was a great first step in the gay marriage fight. As many people know as the generations pass young people could care less anout thjis and 1 day it will be leagal but for now this action is a big step and it bring up the commentary from Keith Olberman originally aired November 2008 after this idiot proposition passed.

I know many here dislike Keoth but on this issue it was one of the most eloquent pieces on this topiv and I am pasting the tect and linking the video for your reading plessure...it wont change the minds of some of the idiot zealots here bnut might change or sawy the others who are not sure what to think.


finally tonight as promised, a Special Comment on the passage, last week, of Proposition Eight in California, which rescinded the right of same-sex couples to marry, and tilted the balance on this issue, from coast to coast.
Some parameters, as preface. This isn't about yelling, and this isn't about politics, and this isn't really just about Prop-8. And I don't have a personal investment in this: I'm not gay, I had to strain to think of one member of even my very extended family who is, I have no personal stories of close friends or colleagues fighting the prejudice that still pervades their lives.

And yet to me this vote is horrible. Horrible. Because this isn't about yelling, and this isn't about politics.

Story continues below
This is about the... human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it.

If you voted for this Proposition or support those who did or the sentiment they expressed, I have some questions, because, truly, I do not... understand. Why does this matter to you? What is it to you? In a time of impermanence and fly-by-night relationships, these people over here want the same chance at permanence and happiness that is your option. They don't want to deny you yours. They don't want to take anything away from you. They want what you want -- a chance to be a little less alone in the world.

Only now you are saying to them -- no. You can't have it on these terms. Maybe something similar. If they behave. If they don't cause too much trouble. You'll even give them all the same legal rights -- even as you're taking away the legal right, which they already had. A world around them, still anchored in love and marriage, and you are saying, no, you can't marry. What if somebody passed a law that said you couldn't marry?

I keep hearing this term "re-defining" marriage.

If this country hadn't re-defined marriage, black people still couldn't marry white people. Sixteen states had laws on the books which made that illegal... in 1967. 1967.

The parents of the President-Elect of the United States couldn't have married in nearly one third of the states of the country their son grew up to lead. But it's worse than that. If this country had not "re-defined" marriage, some black people still couldn't marry...black people. It is one of the most overlooked and cruelest parts of our sad story of slavery. Marriages were not legally recognized, if the people were slaves. Since slaves were property, they could not legally be husband and wife, or mother and child. Their marriage vows were different: not "Until Death, Do You Part," but "Until Death or Distance, Do You Part." Marriages among slaves were not legally recognized.

You know, just like marriages today in California are not legally recognized, if the people are... gay.

And uncountable in our history are the number of men and women, forced by society into marrying the opposite sex, in sham marriages, or marriages of convenience, or just marriages of not knowing -- centuries of men and women who have lived their lives in shame and unhappiness, and who have, through a lie to themselves or others, broken countless other lives, of spouses and children... All because we said a man couldn't marry another man, or a woman couldn't marry another woman. The sanctity of marriage. How many marriages like that have there been and how on earth do they increase the "sanctity" of marriage rather than render the term, meaningless?

What is this, to you? Nobody is asking you to embrace their expression of love. But don't you, as human beings, have to embrace... that love? The world is barren enough.

It is stacked against love, and against hope, and against those very few and precious emotions that enable us to go forward. Your marriage only stands a 50-50 chance of lasting, no matter how much you feel and how hard you work.

And here are people overjoyed at the prospect of just that chance, and that work, just for the hope of having that feeling. With so much hate in the world, with so much meaningless division, and people pitted against people for no good reason, this is what your religion tells you to do? With your experience of life and this world and all its sadnesses, this is what your conscience tells you to do?

With your knowledge that life, with endless vigor, seems to tilt the playing field on which we all live, in favor of unhappiness and hate... this is what your heart tells you to do? You want to sanctify marriage? You want to honor your God and the universal love you believe he represents? Then Spread happiness -- this tiny, symbolic, semantical grain of happiness -- share it with all those who seek it. Quote me anything from your religious leader or book of choice telling you to stand against this. And then tell me how you can believe both that statement and another statement, another one which reads only "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

---

You are asked now, by your country, and perhaps by your creator, to stand on one side or another. You are asked now to stand, not on a question of politics, not on a question of religion, not on a question of gay or straight. You are asked now to stand, on a question of...love. All you need do is stand, and let the tiny ember of love meet its own fate. You don't have to help it, you don't have it applaud it, you don't have to fight for it. Just don't put it out. Just don't extinguish it. Because while it may at first look like that love is between two people you don't know and you don't understand and maybe you don't even want to know...It is, in fact, the ember of your love, for your fellow **person...

Just because this is the only world we have. And the other guy counts, too.

This is the second time in ten days I find myself concluding by turning to, of all things, the closing plea for mercy by Clarence Darrow in a murder trial.

But what he said, fits what is really at the heart of this:

"I was reading last night of the aspiration of the old Persian poet, Omar-Khayyam," he told the judge.

"It appealed to me as the highest that I can vision. I wish it was in my heart, and I wish it was in the hearts of all:

"So I be written in the Book of Love;

"I do not care about that Book above.

"Erase my name, or write it as you will,

"So I be written in the Book of Love."

---

Good night, and good luck.

a commentary
 
I have to chuckle... when I read this post it was directly beneath the pinned post at the top of the board that reads "Keep it Civil".... and of course Pir8tes, in typical fashion, labels those who oppose gay marraige as "idiot zealots". Way to get the dialogue going.
 
1) Olberman has zero credibilty and is nothing more than a shock jock on the political airways.
2) This issue is so far down the list of important things we really need to address as a country, I really could care less one way or another.
 
Any 2 or more consenting adults should be allowed to marry as far as I'm concerned. Society won't go to hell in a handbag because of this.

However, marriage is a state legal doctrine and is the perfect states' rights issue.

How does this violate the equal protection clause yet progressive tax rates don't? I'm not treated the same way as a ditch digger.
 
I'm sure this will dominate the headlines for awhile. Honestly, I don't really care. I don't think they should be allowed to, but it really doesn't matter to me.

Instead, I'll fight the important battles that are truly ruining this country.
 
Originally posted by SPK145:
Any 2 or more consenting adults should be allowed to marry as far as I'm concerned. Society won't go to hell in a handbag because of this.

However, marriage is a state legal doctrine and is the perfect states' rights issue.

How does this violate the equal protection clause yet progressive tax rates don't? I'm not treated the same way as a ditch digger.
+1000 and you made the point without having to disparage one side or the other....
 
I only disparage those who deserve it...this is different from your argument steve
People are trying to limit rights of others and infringing on the the 14th amendment...the pursuit of happiness.
 
This issue is about equality under the law. And some day, generations that come after us, will question a time when gay people couldn't get married. In similarity, women fighting for their equality because they
didn't have the right to vote. Gays have had a long and arduous fight for
their equality. Hopefully it comes sooner rather than later.
 
Remember in 1967 there were 31 states that barred inter racial marriage.
Olberman is some of things he's accused of but he's honest/passionate and if you read his commentary or watched it...he is not wrong

While he far from perfect he outshines those racist/hate mongering liars box head hannity, Beck and O'reilly...I won't even comment on a certain fat pill popping disgrace to the human race.
 
Olberman IS wrong.... and quite frankly I am really getting fed up with people who paint everyone who has a different opinion as racist. But when you can't run on record or accomplishments... then you play the race card and the liar card and the name calling card. Something the left is becoming very adept at lately..... and Americans are rejecting it. Race has nothing to do with the gay marriage issue.... NOTHING. And the gay marriage question has no equivilancy with the civil rights movement as Olberman implies. The majority, (I think it was a pretty hefty majority) of black voters in California voted for Proposition 8.
 
Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
This issue is about equality under the law.
Sounds like equality for thee but not for me. How are progressive income tax rates equal under the law?
 
Originally posted by SPK145:
Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
This issue is about equality under the law.
Sounds like equality for thee but not for me. How are progressive income tax rates equal under the law?

You have the right to pay any tax rate that you would like.
Just make less money. lol.
 
Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by SPK145:

Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
This issue is about equality under the law.
Sounds like equality for thee but not for me. How are progressive income tax rates equal under the law?

You have the right to pay any tax rate that you would like.
Just make less money. lol.
Merge, great idea to dis-incentivize productive members of society and de-motivate innoavative behavior and drive the country into the shitter even faster. Now I know why you support this administrtion so blindly...lol
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by SPK145:

Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
This issue is about equality under the law.
Sounds like equality for thee but not for me. How are progressive income tax rates equal under the law?

You have the right to pay any tax rate that you would like.
Just make less money. lol.
Merge, great idea to dis-incentivize productive members of society and de-motivate innoavative behavior and drive the country into the shitter even faster. Now I know why you support this administrtion so blindly...lol

Really? People paying too much in taxes will want to earn less money JUST to pay less tax?

My post was in jest (no one wants less money) but still throwing out the difference between rights of paying taxes and civil rights. You can pay 0 taxes if you really want to, you can't get married if you are gay.

I hope one day to be rich enough to be a republican. ;)
 
I hope you are smart enough one day to be libertarian, LOL.

If we had much less law, we would have much more equality under the law.

Any 2 or more consenting adults should be allowed to get married. All citizens should pay the same percent of their income in taxes. That's equality under the law. And that's just for starters. Anything less is hypocritical special interest.
This post was edited on 8/6 8:37 PM by SPK145
 
It is a bogus ruling and it has nothing to do with whether you agree or disagree with gay marriage. Why?

What he is saying is that marriage between same sex couples is a guaranteed Constitutional right. That is absurd. Again you can have gay marriage, just get the laws in your state changed.

But marriage laws that affirm one man/one woman is not Unconstitutional. You may think it is unfair, perhaps. But the equal protection clause of the Constitutiona guarantees that the law applies to all Americans equally. As long as all Americans have to live by the same rules regardless of whether you are gay/straight/black/white/asian. In other words you have to marry someone of the opposite sex and that is applied to EVERYONE equally then that is compliant.

At the same time the Constitution does not prohibit gay marriage it is neutral on it. That means it is left to the States and the people. So get the law changed. But to have an unelected judge overturn the will of the people is an abomination regardless of what position you take.

Roe v Wade is wrong not because it legalized abortion but because it invented a right to an abortion that does not exist in the Constitution. That does not mean you can't legalize abortion, again just get people elected who will support laws that do this. Or amend the Constitution. But don't tell me there are rights in the Constitution that don't exist.

Remember Prop 8 passed through popular referendum. You want to overturn that get it back on the ballot and get more people to support your position.
This post was edited on 8/6 7:42 PM by michstfr
 
Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by HALL85:

Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by SPK145:


Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
This issue is about equality under the law.
Sounds like equality for thee but not for me. How are progressive income tax rates equal under the law?

You have the right to pay any tax rate that you would like.
Just make less money. lol.
Merge, great idea to dis-incentivize productive members of society and de-motivate innoavative behavior and drive the country into the shitter even faster. Now I know why you support this administrtion so blindly...lol

Really? People paying too much in taxes will want to earn less money JUST to pay less tax?

My post was in jest (no one wants less money) but still throwing out the difference between rights of paying taxes and civil rights. You can pay 0 taxes if you really want to, you can't get married if you are gay.

I hope one day to be rich enough to be a republican. ;)
Innovative and productive people won't want to earn less money, but instead of living in that kind of system will opt to move to one that will reward them accordingly. This is a problem Canada faces...they annually lose young and talented workers to the U.S. and other economies because of the tax rate and lack of options for career growth.
 
Merge said.... Really? People paying too much in taxes will want to earn less money JUST to pay less tax?

My post was in jest (no one wants less money) but still throwing out the difference between rights of paying taxes and civil rights. You can pay 0 taxes if you really want to, you can't get married if you are gay.

I hope one day to be rich enough to be a republican. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I used to work for a Danish company and one of my Danish co-workers told me about Danes who turned down promotions because the increased pay would put them into tax brackets that would not make the promotion worthwhile financially. A fine example of the wonderful European style socialism taht we are headed for under Obama. BTW...... if the Dems re-institute the marriage penalty tax .... some gays may not want to get married.
 
Originally posted by michstfr:
But the equal protection clause of the Constitutiona guarantees that the law applies to all Americans equally. As long as all Americans have to live by the same rules regardless of whether you are gay/straight/black/white/asian. In other words you have to marry someone of the opposite sex and that is applied to EVERYONE equally then that is compliant.
This post was edited on 8/6 7:42 PM by michstfr

50 years ago, Some states said you could only marry someone within your own race. That was overruled by the supreme court.

Since marriage is not defined in the constitution, why would this be any different than the outcome of Loving v. Virginia?

and quoting the court.. (replace race with sex)

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."
 
In certain Southern States that was the case. But again that was race and that was UNEQUAL treatment. In other words a law written that way does NOT APPLY to everyone equally. BY definition.

Again a marriage law that applies to EVERY RACE, CREED, ETHNICITY and SEX across the board is legal.

Moreover the various laws in those states were changed or voided by the people and the legislatures in those states anyway.

Think about it this way. We are guaranteed the right to vote. You are and I am. Just like we are guaranteed the right to marry. We live in the same voting district. We both have to go down to the local school and vote to get it recorded. You decide you don't want to do it that way. In other words you think you should be able to vote at home by computer or by phone. You call the local registrar's office and they tell you no, the law says you have to vote in your given place. You claim you are being denied your right to vote, really? Are you?
 
Originally posted by michstfr:
In certain Southern States that was the case. But again that was race and that was UNEQUAL treatment. In other words a law written that way does NOT APPLY to everyone equally. BY definition.

Again a marriage law that applies to EVERY RACE, CREED, ETHNICITY and SEX across the board is legal.

Moreover the various laws in those states were changed or voided by the people and the legislatures in those states anyway.

Think about it this way. We are guaranteed the right to vote. You are and I am. Just like we are guaranteed the right to marry. We live in the same voting district. We both have to go down to the local school and vote to get it recorded. You decide you don't want to do it that way. In other words you think you should be able to vote at home by computer or by phone. You call the local registrar's office and they tell you no, the law says you have to vote in your given place. You claim you are being denied your right to vote, really? Are you?

I am just playing devil's advocate, but wouldn't a law requiring all people to marry someone within their race be equal treatment? It applies to everyone across the board.

Your analogy with voting is slightly off because you are showing someone making a choice. Being gay is not a choice. If your polling place doesn't provide wheelchair access and you are handicapped, you will not lose your right to vote even though you will do it differently than everyone else.
 
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