Affordable Housing

[SHUMatt]

My town recently announced that approximately 200 affordable housing units will be built within the next year or so. I'm sure someone had the right intent when they thought of affordable housing but to me it is a horrible idea.

I saw a town that I thought would be a nice place to raise a family so I busted my ass, educated myself, sacrificed things I wanted, skipped out on a few vacations I wanted to go on, saved money etc so I can afford to buy a house in this town. When I accomplished my goal I felt a great deal of pride. I was able to show my kids that if you work hard, you can have nice things.

Now 200 families that never had to make any of these sacrifices, failed to educate themselves, failed to learn a trade, never put money aside etc can just move right in. Yes, I know some of these families may have fallen on hard times and deserve a break but the majority are just getting another government handout. What do they tell their kids? The people who sacrificed everything to get here are just suckers. You dont have to do anything, the government will just give you everything. Where is the example they set for their kids? Where is their pride?

I feel like the example I try to set for my kids is all for nothing. When I show them that if you work hard, you can have nice things they will just point to these 200 families.

I would like to be educated on the positive side of affordable because right now I don't see it.

Rant over!

 

[Merge]

Now 200 families that never had to make any of these sacrifices, failed to educate themselves, failed to learn a trade, never put money aside etc can just move right in.

You have no idea if any of that is true. You're presenting a possible scenario without consideration for so many others where we would want to help families in need. Single parents, windowed, families dealing with medical crises, immigrants who came here legally with nothing to their names but worth their ass off etc.

I feel like the example I try to set for my kids is all for nothing. When I show them that if you work hard, you can have nice things they will just point to these 200 families.

You tell your kids that you work your ass off to get the life you want. Living a life in subsidized housing sucks, but god forbid that if something were to happen to their family and life presents circumstances beyond their control - There are programs like these that may be able to help them live in a community that will be a nice safe place for them to still work hard and raise a family.

That's still a good message for your kids.

 

[SHUMatt]

You have no idea if any of that is true. You're presenting a possible scenario without consideration for so many others where we would want to help families in need. Single parents, windowed, families dealing with medical crises, immigrants who came here legally with nothing to their names but worth their ass off etc.

You tell your kids that you work your ass off to get the life you want. Living a life in subsidized housing sucks, but god forbid that if something were to happen to their family and life presents circumstances beyond their control - There are programs like these that may be able to help them live in a community that will be a nice safe place for them to still work hard and raise a family.

That's still a good message for your kids.

I originally started to debate your post point by point but that was not my intent here. I believe there are some that benefit from affordable housing but for the most part it is just another government handout to those sitting with their hands out.
I see where someone who worked hard would have pride when he/she was able to purchase a home in a nice neighborhood. Those who were just basically given a nice house in a nice neighborhood would not learn the benefits of hard work and sacrifice. It just give them more entitlement that they deserve it for whatever reason they feel. Where do we stop it? Should they also be given nice cars to blend in? Should we give them expensive clothes and jewelry? Should each family be given a free vacation each year so their kids can talk about it in school, so they don't feel left out?

Again, I was looking the other side of the coin of affordable housing, not a debate on why you feel I'm wrong.

 

[Merge]

I see where someone who worked hard would have pride when he/she was able to purchase a home in a nice neighborhood. Those who were just basically given a nice house in a nice neighborhood would not learn the benefits of hard work and sacrifice.

They aren't given a nice house though. They aren't even given a nice apartment. They are given a an opportunity to live in a slightly nicer area that they would have been able to otherwise afford at a slightly cheaper price.

Who says they aren't hard working? Who says they aren't sacrificing?
How can you make all of these assumptions on what their life is like?

Should they also be given nice cars to blend in? Should we give them expensive clothes and jewelry? Should each family be given a free vacation each year so their kids can talk about it in school, so they don't feel left out?

Why are you extending subsidized rent to such absurd arguments that no one is suggesting.

Again, I was looking the other side of the coin of affordable housing, not a debate on why you feel I'm wrong.

You started this off by attacking the families who would live in subsidized housing by calling them uneducated, not willing to sacrifice, unwilling to save etc.

Your mind is made up. There is nothing I'm going to say that will change your opinion on the affordable housing program itself, though I thought maybe I could make you consider that many of these people would be families who aren't lazy... but hard working and just struggling. And raising a family in a nice neighborhood would be a net benefit to you and them.

 

[SHUSA]

this post pretty much sums up the average piratecrew poster.

 

[shu09]

this post pretty much sums up the average piratecrew poster.

What does this mean?

 

[HALL85]

What does this mean?

He doesn't know....just trolling.

 

[SHUMatt]

They aren't given a nice house though. They aren't even given a nice apartment. They are given a an opportunity to live in a slightly nicer area that they would have been able to otherwise afford at a slightly cheaper price.

These townhomes are for purchase, not rent. They are at a fraction of the price of the average home, not slightly cheaper. The homes are brand new and look very nice.

Who says they aren't hard working? Who says they aren't sacrificing?
How can you make all of these assumptions on what their life is like?

I don't know how hard they work or how much sacrifice they have endured. What I do know is that they are getting to live in a community that others had to save a lot more to be able to.

Why are you extending subsidized rent to such absurd arguments that no one is suggesting.

Again, purchase, not rent.

You started this off by attacking the families who would live in subsidized housing by calling them uneducated, not willing to sacrifice, unwilling to save etc.

I never called anyone names. Maybe you can enlighten me on how these highly educated, highly trained, money saving, sacrificing individuals still need assistance.

Your mind is made up. There is nothing I'm going to say that will change your opinion on the affordable housing program itself, though I thought maybe I could make you consider that many of these people would be families who aren't lazy... but hard working and just struggling. And raising a family in a nice neighborhood would be a net benefit to you and them.

I have an opinion, but my mind is far from made up. I did ask for someone to point out the benefits of affordable housing. You failed to even show one benefit. You simply attacked my post point by point without showing the benefits.

Here are some reasons why I am not a big fan of these houses being thrust upon our community.
Our mayor and council are up in arms stating that the roads, sewars, water, gas, electricity and schools are not equipped to handle these additional homes/families. I have not done the research myself, but I have to believe my elected officials here.

According to state law on affordable housing, the builder is not responsible for any of those costs. Mr Kushner will just fill his pockets yet again not caring about how it will affect any of us.

 

[SHUSA]

What does this mean?

guy is grumpy when affordable housing hits his area and assumes everyone who lives there is a lazy bum.

 

[Merge]

These townhomes are for purchase, not rent. They are at a fraction of the price of the average home, not slightly cheaper. The homes are brand new and look very nice.

Missing some context here. A builder is not just building 200 townhomes for sale at a fraction of market rates.
They are either selling a small amount of them at affordable housing rates, or there is something else missing here.

I don't know how hard they work or how much sacrifice they have endured. What I do know is that they are getting to live in a community that others had to save a lot more to be able to.

Rather than look down upon them, why not celebrate that they have the opportunity though?
Studies have shown that when children are given the opportunity to live in affordable housing as opposed to poor neighborhoods, they have better outcomes in life.
Rather than despise their parent for their failures in life because you worked hard, celebrate the fact that their children will have a better opportunity.

but my mind is far from made up. I did ask for someone to point out the benefits of affordable housing.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/hendren/files/mto_paper.pdf

Access to Affordable Housing Promotes Health and Well-Being and Reduces Hospital Visits

Clinical interventions can only partially mitigate homelessness and housing insecurity, which are threats to health and well-being. Clinicians have several opportunities to address these problems: They can refer patients who are homeless or housing insecure ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here are some reasons why I am not a big fan of these houses being thrust upon our community.
Our mayor and council are up in arms stating that the roads, sewars, water, gas, electricity and schools are not equipped to handle these additional homes/families. I have not done the research myself, but I have to believe my elected officials here.

The downside to these laws is that they did not consider impacts and feasibility, and that is definitely a problem in some areas.
I've seen politicians exaggerate the impacts quite a bit though just as a political tool to win elections. It was politicized in a town where it had very little impact because it had a significant impact a few towns over.

 

[TomWall]

guy is grumpy when affordable housing hits his area and assumes everyone who lives there is a lazy bum.

Crime rates go up where affordable housing gets built. So glad I don't live in a Blue state any longer.

 

[SHUSA]

Crime rates go up where affordable housing gets built. So glad I don't live in a Blue state any longer.

like in historically wealthy places like Orange County?

"The study looked at data three years before and three years after affordable developments moved into neighborhoods, and found they reduce most types of crime, especially violent crime, such as robbery and assault."

https://socialecology.uci.edu/news/affordable-housing-decreases-crime-increases-property-values#:~:text=The study looked at data,such as robbery and assault.

again, typical piratecrew poster. hope all is well in your red state lol

 

[Merge]

Crime rates go up where affordable housing gets built.

Several studies on that topic which do not agree with that.

For example

Who Wants Affordable Housing in their Backyard? An Equilibrium Analysis of Low Income Property Development

www.gsb.stanford.edu

"We find both violent and property crime decline in low income areas, regardless of minority share. However, in higher income areas we do not see any increase in crime, rather property crime may even fall slightly."

 

[TomWall]

like in historically wealthy places like Orange County?

"The study looked at data three years before and three years after affordable developments moved into neighborhoods, and found they reduce most types of crime, especially violent crime, such as robbery and assault."

https://socialecology.uci.edu/news/affordable-housing-decreases-crime-increases-property-values#:~:text=The study looked at data,such as robbery and assault.

again, typical piratecrew poster. hope all is well in your red state lol

Said the left-wing university non-peer reviewed study!

 

[hbkmyr]

My town recently announced that approximately 200 affordable housing units will be built within the next year or so. I'm sure someone had the right intent when they thought of affordable housing but to me it is a horrible idea.

I saw a town that I thought would be a nice place to raise a family so I busted my ass, educated myself, sacrificed things I wanted, skipped out on a few vacations I wanted to go on, saved money etc so I can afford to buy a house in this town. When I accomplished my goal I felt a great deal of pride. I was able to show my kids that if you work hard, you can have nice things.

Now 200 families that never had to make any of these sacrifices, failed to educate themselves, failed to learn a trade, never put money aside etc can just move right in. Yes, I know some of these families may have fallen on hard times and deserve a break but the majority are just getting another government handout. What do they tell their kids? The people who sacrificed everything to get here are just suckers. You dont have to do anything, the government will just give you everything. Where is the example they set for their kids? Where is their pride?

I feel like the example I try to set for my kids is all for nothing. When I show them that if you work hard, you can have nice things they will just point to these 200 families.

I would like to be educated on the positive side of affordable because right now I don't see it.

Rant over!

They want to build 200 for-sale affordable townhomes? That seems like a lot. Are you sure that's not the overall unit count in the development.

It's tough to really say without knowing the specific project but affordable for sale homes that are part of a larger development are not usually worth as much as the market rate homes. They will look similar on the outside, but inside they will have much lower grade finishes, flooring, etc.
Also, for sale affordable housing is usually based on an income level. The buyer is not being subsidized by the government but can only make a certain amount. These buyers are working and saving to buy a home, Often they are purchased by teachers, police officers, and other municipal officials. Why shouldn’t a young teacher making say $60000/year be afforded a path to homeownership?

The term "affordable housing" might be one of the most misunderstood terms out there. Many immediately think its bring the cities to their suburbs,

 

[seton1996]

Pretty much the only people who really benefit from affordable housing is the builders. By claiming affordable housing they are able to force a much larger project with only fraction of units being affordable on these smaller suburban towns in NJ. If town tries to resist, they threaten towns with lawsuits that usually go in the developers favor since the poorly written laws on affordable housing.

These developments usually have PIlOTS, and as another poster said the developer doesn’t care or have any responsibility for the infrastructure, including the schools. Also able to get around zoning issues.

 

[hbkmyr]

At the end of the day, real estate development is a business just like any other. It needs to be worthwhile for the builder. Building an exclusively affordable housing community isn’t profitable, so it needs to be tied to a larger project otherwise it’s not going to get built.

If there’s a PILOT being used the municipality is trying to encourage the development.

 

[Pirata]

These townhomes are for purchase, not rent. They are at a fraction of the price of the average home, not slightly cheaper. The homes are brand new and look very nice.

Can you provide a little more info than that?

If these houses were simply for purchase at a lower than market price, then speculators would gobble them up.

Are there restriction on who can buy the homes? For example, you must qualify for SNAP (Food Stamps) and can only purchase one unit.

Is there a restriction that anyone can buy the house but must agree to rent it to a HUD qualified recipient. HUD gives rent vouchers to qualified individuals. Say the fair rental price is $1000 per month. HUD gives a voucher for $800 and the individual must pay $200.

I have a disabled relative who is in HUD subsidized housing. Trust me, it is not paradise. Without it, she would be near homeless.

 

[SHallguy2]

See both sides in this debate, it’s a bit like a science experiment. One thing leads to another. Right now our middle class is getting smaller and smaller, so this is an attempt to invite others to enjoy a small piece of a better life. In theory it seems to make sense and may in fact help long term. I grew up in a neighborhood where most families both parents worked to make ends meet. Not sure as a kid I would want to play and associate with kids who could afford to buy everything new. Personally would rather hang out with like minded kids who are forced to fight for whatever they achieve. Sounds like a socialism experiment.

 

[SHUSA]

Said the left-wing university non-peer reviewed study!

willing to listen to the study you presented, but im still waiting for it

 

[SHUSA]

See both sides in this debate, it’s a bit like a science experiment. One thing leads to another. Right now our middle class is getting smaller and smaller, so this is an attempt to invite others to enjoy a small piece of a better life. In theory it seems to make sense and may in fact help long term. I grew up in a neighborhood where most families both parents worked to make ends meet. Not sure as a kid I would want to play and associate with kids who could afford to buy everything new. Personally would rather hang out with like minded kids who are forced to fight for whatever they achieve. Sounds like a socialism experiment.

if you were low income right now theres a very good chance you base everything on how good the school district is.

 

[SHallguy2]

if you were low income right now theres a very good chance you base everything on how good the school district is.

That’s true if I had young kids and was Lower income I would be considering that fact but there are also plenty of mixed towns for example Montclair where I sent my son to school. There were lots of apartments and lower income parts of town. West orange is another example. People often think of say Irvington or Newark when they think low income but plenty of nice towns with decent school systems with low income living opportunities. I do get your point and don’t disagree just saying it would not be my choice. I believe children benefit from having to overcome obstacles. Going to a school system in a wealthy neighborhood doesn’t guaranty anything.

 

[SHUSA]

That’s true if I had young kids and was Lower income I would be considering that fact but there are also plenty of mixed towns for example Montclair where I sent my son to school. There were lots of apartments and lower income parts of town. West orange is another example. People often think of say Irvington or Newark when they think low income but plenty of nice towns with decent school systems with low income living opportunities. I do get your point and don’t disagree just saying it would not be my choice. I believe children benefit from having to overcome obstacles. Going to a school system in a wealthy neighborhood doesn’t guaranty anything.

conaidering the low income kids are rarely in the popular crowd, theyll have plenty of obstacles compared to the avg kid. heck, being low income is hard enough. but they deserve a chance at good education like anyone else, especially considering they didnt choose their situation. the school district is a huge reason for low income housing and also the reason people rent instead of buy in the suburbs. because they can only afford to rent and give their kids a better opportunity. i wonder in 10 years if the original posters life will be affected at all, id bet my money on no.

 

[SHallguy2]

conaidering the low income kids are rarely in the popular crowd, theyll have plenty of obstacles compared to the avg kid. heck, being low income is hard enough. but they deserve a chance at good education like anyone else, especially considering they didnt choose their situation. the school district is a huge reason for low income housing and also the reason people rent instead of buy in the suburbs. because they can only afford to rent and give their kids a better opportunity. i wonder in 10 years if the original posters life will be affected at all, id bet my money on no.

Not my experience at all, in Montclair all types of kids hung out together. Montclair may not be what you experienced but when I had a gathering or went to a gathering their were folks of all different colors, income levels, and races. I can honestly say only what I witnessed. I believe a good education starts at home and the best lessons are learned from your parents. I saw lots of low income young people rise to great places but also lots who failed to take advantage of the opportunities presented. In a mixed bag Montclair community parent/teacher nights were noticeable attended by working white parents. Montclair schools were no where near the best schools but plenty of kids left there and became very successful. School ratings are not everything. To your point if a parent goes out of their way to live in an area where they can send their kids to a good school its a great start but so much more to it. Tend to agree with you that low income housing will not affect the life style of others in town, but the location can affect the value of your real estate. The original poster made an investment and has every right to be questioning and wondering how this will affect his family.

 

[SHUSA]

Not my experience at all, in Montclair all types of kids hung out together. Montclair may not be what you experienced but when I had a gathering or went to a gathering their were folks of all different colors, income levels, and races. I can honestly say only what I witnessed. I believe a good education starts at home and the best lessons are learned from your parents. I saw lots of low income young people rise to great places but also lots who failed to take advantage of the opportunities presented. In a mixed bag Montclair community parent/teacher nights were noticeable attended by working white parents. Montclair schools were no where near the best schools but plenty of kids left there and became very successful. School ratings are not everything. To your point if a parent goes out of their way to live in an area where they can send their kids to a good school its a great start but so much more to it. Tend to agree with you that low income housing will not affect the life style of others in town, but the location can affect the value of your real estate. The original poster made an investment and has every right to be questioning and wondering how this will affect his family.

100% agree best lessons are taught at home (if a parenr gets to spend time at home) but its not the same type of education as schools to a certain point.

to your point about investment, his post made no mention of his interest in the investment. just whining that he worked hard to live there and the "lazy" demographic didnt. so i stand by my original point.

even if it was related to investment, real estate value goes up and down for many reason. the original poster isnt entitled to his property appreciating. generally if hes had the property for more than 3 years his value has most likely gone up significantly. but again, hes not concerned with that. he just wanted to rant to people who share similar viewpoints about low income people.

 

[HALL85]

Not my experience at all, in Montclair all types of kids hung out together. Montclair may not be what you experienced but when I had a gathering or went to a gathering their were folks of all different colors, income levels, and races. I can honestly say only what I witnessed. I believe a good education starts at home and the best lessons are learned from your parents. I saw lots of low income young people rise to great places but also lots who failed to take advantage of the opportunities presented. In a mixed bag Montclair community parent/teacher nights were noticeable attended by working white parents. Montclair schools were no where near the best schools but plenty of kids left there and became very successful. School ratings are not everything. To your point if a parent goes out of their way to live in an area where they can send their kids to a good school its a great start but so much more to it. Tend to agree with you that low income housing will not affect the life style of others in town, but the location can affect the value of your real estate. The original poster made an investment and has every right to be questioning and wondering how this will affect his family.

Similar experiences in terms of the town I grew up and what I see in the communities we interact with today. It all starts at home and having engaged a supportive and stable household and engaged parents. When parents don't show up at parent/teacher night, that's a dead giveaway; when parents don't support and hold kids accountable to complete schoolwork, another dead giveaway. If parents are not stressing the importance and involved, the child is starting with a handicap.

I grew up in a multi-culture/racial relatively small, lower-middle class town in NJ. Most kids grew up in multi-generational families, both parents and supportive neighbors. Parents didn't often get to watch their kids play sports as they were working or taking care of the other kids/household. Went to my 40th HS reunion a few years ago and I didn't see any billionaires or nationally recognized celebrities, but a room full of people that did better than their parents and contributing to society in many positive ways.

Not a fan of these science experiments because the are built on assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

 

[Pirata]

The OP was a self admitted rant.

Another poster accurately stated that affordable housing is a very broad term and unless you define specifically the type of program being implemented, it's somewhat pointless to discuss it.

Taking the position that anyone in affordable housing is a lazy bum getting a handout is unreasonable.

Home ownership is good for the economy. There's a reason that housing starts are a key economic indicator.

Government programs that give builders incentive to build where otherwise they wouldn't is good as long as the incentives are not ridiculously counter to a free market.

If a town can convert a field to homes or rehab dilapidated homes, that ultimately is a good thing.

Other than high end rentals, the greater the percentage of homes owned versus rented is also beneficial to a town.

 

[Pirata]

Lancaster LNP

This full replica of our printed product provides you the newspaper as you know and love it from the convenience of the web.

lancasteronline-pa.newsmemory.com

Second half of article:

Lancaster LNP

1project received from the city. Judge Margaret C. Miller’s ruling

lancasteronline-pa.newsmemory.com

 

[T2Kplus20]

You have no idea if any of that is true. You're presenting a possible scenario without consideration for so many others where we would want to help families in need. Single parents, windowed, families dealing with medical crises, immigrants who came here legally with nothing to their names but worth their ass off etc.



You tell your kids that you work your ass off to get the life you want. Living a life in subsidized housing sucks, but god forbid that if something were to happen to their family and life presents circumstances beyond their control - There are programs like these that may be able to help them live in a community that will be a nice safe place for them to still work hard and raise a family.

That's still a good message for your kids.

And @SHUMatt - I couldn't resist jumping into this thread. I lived the life of NJ affordable housing as a local elected official and mayor for about a decade. I would be happy to answer any questions and provide details.

Let's me just start with this. I believe the biggest threat to my town and all similar towns in NJ (middle to upper income suburban towns) is COAH/low income housing. This is not because of the concept itself, but rather how NJ's dumbass legislature is implementing it.

The NJ constitutional mandate dates back to the 70s/80s and the numerous Mount Laurel decisions. This addressed exclusionary zoning and isn't a bad concept. A town shouldn't be able to zone the entire town in such a matter to directly exclude people. Okay, fine.

However, NJ's COAH system (which is now just court decisions) is f'ed up beyond belief. It has become a pay-off to developers, nothing more. The big problem is not the # of low-income units. It's the kicker of market rate units developers get to build as well.

Say a town needs to zone for 100 low income units, okay. But allowing a developer to also build 400 market rate units making the total 500 is destroying NJ and our nice suburban towns. That's the real problem!

 

[Merge]

The NJ constitutional mandate dates back to the 70s/80s and the numerous Mount Laurel decisions. This addressed exclusionary zoning and isn't a bad concept. A town shouldn't be able to zone the entire town in such a matter to directly exclude people. Okay, fine.

However, NJ's COAH system (which is now just court decisions) is f'ed up beyond belief. It has become a pay-off to developers, nothing more. The big problem is not the # of low-income units. It's the kicker of market rate units developers get to build as well.

Say a town needs to zone for 100 low income units, okay. But allowing a developer to also build 400 market rate units making the total 500 is destroying NJ and our nice suburban towns. That's the real problem!

Right. I have no issue blaming the poorly written laws, or the developers who take advantage of the poorly written laws.

Not a big fan of going after the people who may be in need of assistance though.

That said, Which nice suburban towns are you referring to that have been destroyed by these developments?

 

[T2Kplus20]

Right. I have no issue blaming the poorly written laws, or the developers who take advantage of the poorly written laws.

Not a big fan of going after the people who may be in need of assistance though.

That said, Which nice suburban towns are you referring to that have been destroyed by these developments?

Definitely my childhood hometown of East Brunswick. Low-income housing turned EB into a suburban ghetto. Awful traffic, minimal open space, low quality cluster housing everywhere, etc. West Windor and South Brunswick have been crushed as well and both were smashed with recent Round 3 mandates, so things will get worse. SB's new plan calls for 2800 additional housing units. Wow. Where are these houses going? Hillsborough is getting crushed as we speak (drive down 206).

Even scarier, Hopewell got crushed with a 2600 housing unit mandate. This is a lesson to other similar towns. Undeveloped land is AT RISK. You need to preserve land as quickly as possible. That's the only way to protect your towns.

Remember, development is the biggest driver of stormwater management issues and flooding. Keep building and it will just get worse.

 

[hbkmyr]

'A holy war on sprawl': States seek to shape new housing development by limiting local control

From tent cities in the traffic circles of Washington, D.C to Los Angeles’s Skid Row, a crisis of unaffordable housing and resulting high rates of homelessness is easy to observe nationwide. Now, trailblazing efforts are being made by state lawmakers to address the issue by forcing localities to...

news.yahoo.com

 

[cernjSHU]

Another way "low income" has been done in many towns is to set this aside for senior citizens.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Said the left-wing university non-peer reviewed study!

I actually don't believe that towns with affordable housing see a rise in crime, but when you quote Stanford in this era of opinion and slant, I would just as soon not waste my time.

Have you heard the commercials still pushing people to get boosted so they can live their lives? For a virus ten strains ago? "Science." And I got the original booster, as did my wife, who was pregnant at the time.

 

[Pirata]

Portland mulls costly plan to build shed-like sleep 'pods' at homeless camps

Portland, Oregon, Mayor Ted Wheeler plans to create consolidated housing for the unhoused so that he can move to ban homeless camping around the city following widespread complaints.

www.foxnews.com