Afghanistan = Vietnam
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
- Start date
There is a lot of good theory here but my point is that the Afghan attitude towards US occupation has always been more driven by sentiment than practicalities…eg Islam, national honor/humiliation, past experiences with European powers, etc.
These are all things that modern Western society with its intense materialism and rejection of its own traditions no longer has any ability to guage, especially in Islamic nations.
The airport scenes today are dramatic but they don't represent the prevailing will of their nation anymore than scenes of Marxist or Gaullist demonstrations against American airbases did in Europe.
Thoughts on the speech?
Didn't quite get to the point of saying it was a mistake but there were a couple points which I thought were well said.
Blamed Trump; missed the point by saying this all started with invasion of Afghanistan (it started with 9/11); missed the opportunity to talk about how we will deal with terrorists going forward; lame excuses on why we didn’t get people out sooner. Then he walked out without taking questions.
The visual of the plane rolling down the runway with people hanging on it will be etched in history.
Not a fan of the speech. While he hinted around that the buck stops with him, he never came out and said we were caught off guard and that I take full responsibilities for any failures. Also, he said something to the effect of we will be watching terrorism on the ground? How? You could have by not leaving. You can’t just blame Trump. You went along with it so Biden and Trump are joined at the hip with this.
Agree. There were a couple spots I didn't like as well. Not going to get anywhere blaming Trump and wish he would stop mentioning him. The part about our troops being protected prior to May was pretty dumb as if we should be placing trust in the Taliban, and he should have taken questions. A few moments of blunt truth in there as well. Doesn't matter when we leave, this was going to always be the result.
Still, as much as I was in favor of leaving, it is currently a disaster and he owns that.
I agreed with him that things were never going to change, and you cannot keep going down the same road. My solution would have been to keep a presence in the area, for example control the airport and surrounding area. We have troops all around the world yet we pulled completely out? Makes no sense at all. The country was as stable as could be expected for that area of the world. If ever an area needed to be policed this was the place. If we controlled the airport we would be able to strike quickly, now things will be more complicated. Will go down as one of the biggest military blunders by a commander in chief. Any respect he could have gotten from independent voters was lost when he blamed Trump.
The optics of people hanging onto the plane and falling to their death while we turn our backs is a defining moment in history.
The other developing defining moment is also happening and no one is talking about it. The last 3 presidents have borrowed trillions of dollars and no one has done a dam thing to try and solve homelessness. Zero we should be ashamed as a country. The people of this country do whatever they can, but Politicians have turned their backs. Trillions and we cannot put a roof over someone’s head.
I know, two different subjects sorry for venting.
We should look in the mirror as a country...each of the last four President's have gotten progressively worse. Shows how dangerous partisan politics can be....
its a pattern for everything in this world. its about winning elections, not implementing policy or actually trying to run a country. education system isnt about learning, its about getting As on tests. Subway not in the business of selling sandwiches, they are in the business of selling franchises, etc.
everywhere you look are cases of not being able to see the forrest through the trees. it degrades everything.
This was an extremely poorly executed exit - understatement of the century right there. We needed to get out of there but we should have done this so much better and taken the time needed to clear out.
Taliban now has access to more US military equipment - didn't need to be that way. We should have held both the Bagram and Karzai bases as the last two things before we exited to exert power and control this from happening.
I am certain our Army trainers knew the Afghan Army would not fight. My nephew is an Army Ranger Captain who trained Ukraine soldiers to hold the line with Russia - he said they will run the other way the instant Russia wants the Ukraine. They knew.
Bad job by all four Presidents who had a hand in this. Bottom line is its a very dangerous area of the world and now we will have to watch it from afar instead of having a presence. Tough choices and not worth more American lives. Nevertheless one of the most poorly planned and executed exits of all time making the Biden administration look like other parts of the world are ripe for the taking. The bad guys will try to exploit this. So far Russia, Iran and China have all made contact with the Taliban and want to work with them economically. I feel terrible for the Afghan people and especially the women and children who will lose everything. Sad.
Taliban now has access to more US military equipment - didn't need to be that way. We should have held both the Bagram and Karzai bases as the last two things before we exited to exert power and control this from happening.
I am certain our Army trainers knew the Afghan Army would not fight. My nephew is an Army Ranger Captain who trained Ukraine soldiers to hold the line with Russia - he said they will run the other way the instant Russia wants the Ukraine. They knew.
Bad job by all four Presidents who had a hand in this. Bottom line is its a very dangerous area of the world and now we will have to watch it from afar instead of having a presence. Tough choices and not worth more American lives. Nevertheless one of the most poorly planned and executed exits of all time making the Biden administration look like other parts of the world are ripe for the taking. The bad guys will try to exploit this. So far Russia, Iran and China have all made contact with the Taliban and want to work with them economically. I feel terrible for the Afghan people and especially the women and children who will lose everything. Sad.
Those of you who want to be out of Afghanistan and then complain about how we exited is almost trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth. It was always going to be a disaster to pull out of Afghanistan. You either stay and we can talk about the size of the force necessary to stay in the country or you leave.
I have made it abundantly clear that we should have stayed just like we should not have abandoned the Kurds in Iraq. Leaving was the wrong decision.
You see what a disaster it was to leave and now Monday morning quarterback and say well it could have been better. Well maybe and maybe not. I don’t see it that way. It was always going to be a disaster. Could it have been handled a little better. Yes. But this was always going to be the scene.
I have made it abundantly clear that we should have stayed just like we should not have abandoned the Kurds in Iraq. Leaving was the wrong decision.
You see what a disaster it was to leave and now Monday morning quarterback and say well it could have been better. Well maybe and maybe not. I don’t see it that way. It was always going to be a disaster. Could it have been handled a little better. Yes. But this was always going to be the scene.
It is a logistical nightmare but it can be done. You don't try and leave and then send in 5000 US forces to try and continue to leave. It is not talking out of both sides of your mouth at all. I watched an interview on ABC with the Secretary of Defense and he was asked repeatedly if Biden followed the Pentagons recommendations and he said we had a seat at the table, our view was heard and ultimately the President made a decision. Translation - Biden made a decision that did not jive with the Pentagon. Was it about how they left? Probably but we will never know. Whatever the plan was, it backfired badly even after so many said it would only take two weeks for the Taliban to retake Afghanistan. Everyone knew their Army would not fight and even with that they were wrong by a week. You can't try to leave, then rush in more soldiers to help you leave. Just not well executed at all and puts more lives in danger doing it that way. The Taliban knew all along we would get tired and leave. Their ancestors did it to the Russians and more before. We simply need to be smarter about trying to build democracy in places where it will never exist.
It's not talking out of both sides of our mouth. Leaving was going to be messy no matter what, but the priority is to get your citizens out of there along with the assets that helped you for the past 20 years. Not to mention all of the equipment that is being left behind because of how quickly things spiraled out of control. And as Biden would say "C'mon man"...Biden's July speech showed how badly they miscalculated or just ignored the advice of the militaries leaders. And then to address the nation by blaming previous Presidents? Shameful. Biden is the one who is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Perhaps the decision that was made that didn’t jive with the Pentagon was leaving. I heard McMaster this morning and he said we should have not left Afghanistan. We needed to stay there. He was making a lot of sense Not only in Afghanistan but also with the Kurds. Leaving is the mistake. The rest is just all BS.
And please let’s not make this into a D or R thing. Trump made a deal with these terrorists. He and Biden are together on this disaster. Who makes a deal with Terrorists? Unbelievable. Biden knew who Trump made the deal with and was ok with it. Unbelievable. Responding to Hall 85, what equipment were we taking and not leaving to the Afghan Military? Afghan military needed the US presence to help them fight. Once we left, it crumbled. Once it crumbled no matter the time line, that equipment ends up with the Taliban. Again, leaving was the issue. This result is not surprising at all. People are so shocked by what they saw. Yes, it’s nice to say, get our troops out but they don’t know the deadly consequences of those actions. What we are seeing is nothing to what is coming.
Leaving 22-30,000 people scrambling for their lives (when you said the complete opposite weeks earlier), is a major f-up. How is that Trump's fault?
Didn’t mean to imply you made that argument here. Just hearing that from other people.
As I said, the deal on the first place was awful and the Deal Trump made was to be out May 1. So far no American deaths which is good. I just really didn’t see this going any other way.
I also included the previous Presidents on the accountability list. Biden has pretty much reversed everything Trump did, so why was he obligated to stick to this plan?
I guess those three people that fell to their death don't count along with the other casualties at the airport. Obviously, Biden saw it going a different way, unless he was lying to us last month.
Exactly. And once you do that, me and many others automatically ignore everything else you say, even it is has merit.
Don't Excuse Biden for His Botched Afghanistan Withdrawal
President Joe Biden on Monday did something unexpected for a U.S. executive: In a press conference, he stuck by his promise to withdraw troops from
reason.com
If you have the time to read the Afghanistan Papers you will be livid at the wide swath of corruption and that has existed for the past 20 years. Essentially most Afghan hires were illiterate and just looking out for #1 and did everything they could to milk the system. Contractors were paid by the numbers so they naturally inflated them and the military officials looked the other way. All around disaster with no end in site except by withdrawing our forces.
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Papers
The Afghanistan Papers are a set of internal documents from the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) obtained by The Washington Post through a Freedom of Information Act request that document the US war in Afghanistan. The documents reveal that high-ranking officials were generally of the opinion that the war was unwinnable, but kept this hidden from the public. Due to the difficulty of creating metrics to objectively demonstrate success, they had been manipulated for the duration of the conflict. NPR host Lulu Garcia-Navarro said that the "new Pentagon Papers describe explicit and sustained efforts by the US government to deliberately mislead the public.”
The initial article derived from these papers, titled "At War With the Truth," was published by The Washington Post reporter Craig Whitlock on December 9, 2019. Shortly thereafter, numerous publications built on Whitlock's writing.
The report, titled “Lessons Learned,” estimates that 40% of U.S. aid to Afghanistan since 2001 ended up in the pockets of corrupt officials, warlords, criminals and insurgents. Ryan Crocker, former ambassador to Afghanistan and Iraq, told the investigators in a 2016 interview, "You just cannot put those amounts of money into a very fragile state and society, and not have it fuel corruption."
Wikipedia · Text under CC-BY-SA license
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Papers
The Afghanistan Papers are a set of internal documents from the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) obtained by The Washington Post through a Freedom of Information Act request that document the US war in Afghanistan. The documents reveal that high-ranking officials were generally of the opinion that the war was unwinnable, but kept this hidden from the public. Due to the difficulty of creating metrics to objectively demonstrate success, they had been manipulated for the duration of the conflict. NPR host Lulu Garcia-Navarro said that the "new Pentagon Papers describe explicit and sustained efforts by the US government to deliberately mislead the public.”
- Initial reporting in The Washington Post
The initial article derived from these papers, titled "At War With the Truth," was published by The Washington Post reporter Craig Whitlock on December 9, 2019. Shortly thereafter, numerous publications built on Whitlock's writing.
The report, titled “Lessons Learned,” estimates that 40% of U.S. aid to Afghanistan since 2001 ended up in the pockets of corrupt officials, warlords, criminals and insurgents. Ryan Crocker, former ambassador to Afghanistan and Iraq, told the investigators in a 2016 interview, "You just cannot put those amounts of money into a very fragile state and society, and not have it fuel corruption."
Wikipedia · Text under CC-BY-SA license
Since it’s a topic
Trump was a jerk
didn’t have a problem with his policies
Maybe you can answer this question: when did Taliban first breach the Trump era deal? What was the nature of the breach? ….anyone?
How about almost immediately. First, the conditions were a joke. 1) Not to provide safe harbor or support AlQaeda. Never ever complied with. 2) engage with the Afghan government in negotiations to power sharing. Never complied with.
Meanwhile Trump took down the troop levels from 15,000 to 2,500. The only condition complied with by the Taliban was not to attack the US. As the US complied with not to attack the Taliban. The whole deal was a horrendous from the start.
Trump dealt with terrorists. Stop there. Everything else was doomed. Biden goes along with it. Everything else is doomed.
Gotcha. When did trump reduce troop levels?
when was the deal that was supposedly never at any time complied with finalized? another post by you says negotiations were going into at least September 2020….or approx 3.5 months before President Biden so curious as to the particulars
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/
A pretty succinct Timeline of events.
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