Alec Baldwin going to be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter

[cernjSHU]

New Mexico's involuntary manslaughter is not like NJ. IN NJ there is no criminal negligence. However, New Mexico has a very broad statute:
"Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony."

The commission of a lawful act "without due caution and circumspection." is an extremely broad.

However, I am surprised by this charge. There is not supposed to be any live ammo on set. There seems to be a causation issue because this does not occur without the negligence or intentional act of another place live ammo into the gun. I wished Alec Baldwin was a Seton Hall fan because I would love to represent him on this charge.

 

[HALL85]

I’m not a lawyer, but am a gun owner. It doesn’t matter if live ammo was not supposed to be on the set or not. And whether you are the armor or not, if you handle a real gun, you have the responsibility to ALWAYS check that gun before using it.

Now that you mention the New Mexico law, I wonder what would’ve happened to Jayson Williams if he had shot the limo driver in that state.

 

[cernjSHU]

I’m not a lawyer, but am a gun owner. It doesn’t matter if live ammo was not supposed to be on the set or not. And whether you are the armor or not, if you handle a real gun, you have the responsibility to ALWAYS check that gun before using it.

Now that you mention the New Mexico law, I wonder what would’ve happened to Jayson Williams if he had shot the limo driver in that state.

You are talking about responsible handling of a weapon which is different than criminality. Should he have checked? Yes. but his commission of not checking is different in the criminal context in which there is not supposed to be on set. That is a significant factor. By the way, I don't know what a blank looks like. What does a blank look like?

As far as Jayson Williams is concerned, he eventually pled to manslaughter. He was drunk and handling a loaded shot gun. In NJ, manslaughter is this:

(1)The actor recklessly causes death under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life; or

This really does not tell you anything. The real trick is in the jury charge.
"A person who causes another's death does so recklessly when he/she is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that death will result from his/her conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of defendant's conduct and the circumstances known to defendant, his/her disregard of that risk is a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would follow in the same situation.[1]

In other words, you must find that defendant was aware of and consciously disregarded the risk of causing death. If you find that defendant was aware of and disregarded the risk of causing death, you must determine whether that risk that he/she disregarded was substantial and unjustifiable. In doing so, you must consider the nature and purpose of defendant's conduct, and the circumstances known to defendant, and you must determine whether, in light of those factors, defendant's disregard of that risk was a gross deviation from the conduct a reasonable person would have observed in defendant's situation.[2]

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[Merge]

You are talking about responsible handling of a weapon which is different than criminality. Should he have checked? Yes. but his commission of not checking is different in the criminal context in which there is not supposed to be on set.

Seems like he would be liable if they can set the threshold for "due caution" for an actor as checking to see if there is live ammo or not?

When they hire an expert to handle the guns and put in blanks, shouldn't that legally satisfy "due caution" from the actors perspective?

 

[HALL85]

Seems like he would be liable if they can set the threshold for "due caution" for an actor as checking to see if there is live ammo or not?

When they hire an expert to handle the guns and put in blanks, shouldn't that legally satisfy "due caution" from the actors perspective?

Just because there is an expert doesn’t absolve Baldwin from checking the gun prior to using it. Now I’m talking as a gun owner and that is like gun safety 101. I don’t know what is required legally and what is required on a movie set.

 

[HALL85]

You are talking about responsible handling of a weapon which is different than criminality. Should he have checked? Yes. but his commission of not checking is different in the criminal context in which there is not supposed to be on set. That is a significant factor. By the way, I don't know what a blank looks like. What does a blank look like?

Like I said, I’m not a lawyer nor do I know how the New Mexico law will be interpreted. If you handle a gun, you should know what a blank looks like. If you don’t, ask the armor to reconfirm along side you and point out what is different.

As far as Jayson Williams is concerned, he eventually pled to manslaughter. He was drunk and handling a loaded shot gun. In NJ, manslaughter is this:

(1)The actor recklessly causes death under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life; or

This really does not tell you anything. The real trick is in the jury charge.
"A person who causes another's death does so recklessly when he/she is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that death will result from his/her conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of defendant's conduct and the circumstances known to defendant, his/her disregard of that risk is a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would follow in the same situation.[1]

In other words, you must find that defendant was aware of and consciously disregarded the risk of causing death. If you find that defendant was aware of and disregarded the risk of causing death, you must determine whether that risk that he/she disregarded was substantial and unjustifiable. In doing so, you must consider the nature and purpose of defendant's conduct, and the circumstances known to defendant, and you must determine whether, in light of those factors, defendant's disregard of that risk was a gross deviation from the conduct a reasonable person would have observed in defendant's situation.[2]

Williams pled after the first trial was a hung jury. Being a celebrity basketball player factored into it. Testimony by Benoit Benjamin was chilling. He pled because the prosecution didn’t want to spend the time and money. Nobody cared about a single limo driver that was a reformed alcoholic and was doing good helping others.

The group of guys in that house should all rot as they let Gus bleed to death waiting 45 minutes to call the police and covering up the crime. Called his agent/attorney first who arrived in minutes. Thankfully he was stripped by the NBA of being able to represent anyone after that.

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[Pirata]

What does a blank look like?

Not cut and dry.

A typical blank wold lokk like this:

However, on movies sets, if they want to picture someone loading a weapon, they take the projectile off the casing, empty the gunpower, and then replace the projectile. In that case it would look like a normal bullet.

Either way, you would have to remove the bullet from the chamber to see this. That is typically not done. When you check to see if a gun is loaded, you are looking at the back end of the bullet and they would look the same.

Keep in mind in this case, that Baldwin was a producer. It is possible he is being charged in that role as opposed to the actor who shot the gun. As a producer, was he negligent? Did he establish and insect procedures that would prevent live ammunition being put a gun and handed to an actor.

I agree with 85 that you always assume a weapon is loaded until you check and prove otherwise. However, this is a bit different in that the shooter was expecting that he was handed a loaded gun but that round was a blank. I would not expect that an actor would check the gun after the armorer handed it to them and especially that they would not open the gun and remove the round to see if it was blank or live.

Again, I suspect he is being charged as the producer not as the shooter.

 

[Merge]

Again, I suspect he is being charged as the producer not as the shooter.

Wondered the same, but there are 12 producers credited and he is the only one being charged.
Seemed to suggest they are going after him as the shooter... but that just seems crazy.

 

[Pirata]

Looks like they are charging the armorer also.

One of the assistant directors has plead already.

 

[SHallguy2]

You can never be to careful with a gun, he was careless. 5 years will give
him time to reflect on his carelessness. He should consider himself fortunate. It would be interesting to pull up the old thread to read opinions from when it happened.

 

[Merge]

Looks like they are charging the armorer also.

One of the assistant directors has pleaded already.

Yeah, the director is the one who handed Baldwin the gun and announced it to Baldwin and the crew as a “cold gun”.

Just seems like these sets have controls in place to protect the actors. Clearly they failed, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable for the actors to rely on the experts to do their job.

 

[Merge]

You can never be to careful with a gun, he was careless. 5 years will give
him time to reflect on his carelessness. He should consider himself fortunate. It would be interesting to pull up the old thread to read opinions from when it happened.

https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/baldwin…-wtf.53131/

 

[SHallguy2]

Yeah, the director is the one who handed Baldwin the gun and announced it to Baldwin and the crew as a “cold gun”.

Just seems like these sets have controls in place to protect the actors. Clearly they failed, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable for the actors to rely on the experts to do their job.

They should use cap guns like the old westerns, Lone Ranger comes to mind. With technology it should be easy to use nothing at all and just add the sound later during editing.

 

[SHallguy2]

https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/baldwin…-wtf.53131/

Thanks, funny I made the same comment about cap guns in the old thread. The gun owners and folks who have a little training made the right call in the old thread. Baldwin at the very least should have pointed and fired the gun away from anyone standing there. I cannot even imagine the horror of this incident, don’t know if I could live with myself even if I thought it was an accident. I would wake up every night in a cold sweat. I would never want to be in his shoes.

 

[Pirata]

The answer is simple. You would take the gun and point it down and away from yourself and anything else. You would open the cylinder and inspect it for any rounds and then you would look down the barrel to see if there was a round in it.

I went back and read that thread.

Just to clarify this post, when looking down the barrel it is done from the chamber end, not the business end.

 

[Merge]

Thanks, funny I made the same comment about cap guns in the old thread. The gun owners and folks who have a little training made the right call in the old thread. Baldwin at the very least should have pointed and fired the gun away from anyone standing there. I cannot even imagine the horror of this incident, don’t know if I could live with myself even if I thought it was an accident. I would wake up every night in a cold sweat. I would never want to be in his shoes.

Agreed. Accidentally taking a life like that would mess most people up for a long time.

I’m sure this will lead to enhanced safety protocols, but beyond the safety aspect, if there is any liability to Baldwin here, no actor should ever agree to firing a gun with blanks on set again.

 

[HALL85]

https://www.aol.com/entertainment/a...ED45ssSqNOQErCXnbq9HaYzQbZvqiXs1gccnDBnQuQj5x

Two manslaughter charges. Are they attempting to give the jury options? And the firearm enhancement seems to be the most punitive.

Two things really hurt Baldwin. 1- The interview with Stephanopolis, where he basically lied. 2- As Director he has responsibility for the set. Interesting the Assistant took a plea deal. Did he provide incriminating information on Baldwin? For instance, what if Baldwin knew the cast was using live rounds on the set?

 

[cernjSHU]

https://www.aol.com/entertainment/a...ED45ssSqNOQErCXnbq9HaYzQbZvqiXs1gccnDBnQuQj5x

Two manslaughter charges. Are they attempting to give the jury options? And the firearm enhancement seems to be the most punitive.

Two things really hurt Baldwin. 1- The interview with Stephanopolis, where he basically lied. 2- As Director he has responsibility for the set. Interesting the Assistant took a plea deal. Did he provide incriminating information on Baldwin? For instance, what if Baldwin knew the cast was using live rounds on the set?

You are right about that interview that hurt him. That is why anyone who is even under the most remote possibility of a criminal charge should contact an attorney who would have said never to speak in an interview. If there is evidence that he knew live rounds were on the set, that would change things. But from all indications, that’s not true.

Being careless is not the equivalent to this criminal charge. Accidents are different.

I don’t know the case law in New Mexico, but there has to be some knowledge or awareness of something that could cause death or serious bodily injury that he ignored. Otherwise, it’s a horrible tragic accident. If there are people on set to assure the gun is safe and loaded with blanks, how does he have any knowledge? I will repeat this, this is a huge over reach by the prosecutor here.

 

[Pirata]

I'm surprised the prosecutors would give an interview before a trial. Perhaps they're confident that it will never get to trial and that he will take a plea.

 

[cernjSHU]

These prosecutors were not impressive at all. First, it seems as if they think that since he lied in that interview that is a big deal. That fact alone is irrelevant. Whether he pulled the trigger or not is not important. It is the knowledge of a dangerousness circumstances. Second, it is not unethical to engage in plea negotiations. Every case there is a plea offer given. Third, he is not going to prison on this. No way does he settle nor should he. He should settle the civil law suit first. That will be a huge payout. Then go to trial on this charge.

The fact that there is a a maximum sentence is not what he will receive even after conviction. He has no criminal convictions. He faces probation or very little jail time.

There is negligence in what happened for sure. But people get confused and even many lawyers who do not practice in this field get confused. This is a negligence case that is a great civil case. Baldwin was negligent in hiring the armorer, and having a dangerous set. But that is civil case for money damages. He and his production company should get nailed big time for money damages. But this is not criminal. How in the world do you hold someone criminally responsible for a civil duty of care of not checking whether there was live rounds in a gun. There were two other people who are specifically responsible for making sure that it safe before it is given to the actor.

 

[HALL85]

Could the assistant have provided some damning evidence for his plea?

 

[ed odowd]

Such a great guy we are all rooting for him LOL.

 

[SHallguy2]

These prosecutors were not impressive at all. First, it seems as if they think that since he lied in that interview that is a big deal. That fact alone is irrelevant. Whether he pulled the trigger or not is not important. It is the knowledge of a dangerousness circumstances. Second, it is not unethical to engage in plea negotiations. Every case there is a plea offer given. Third, he is not going to prison on this. No way does he settle nor should he. He should settle the civil law suit first. That will be a huge payout. Then go to trial on this charge.

The fact that there is a a maximum sentence is not what he will receive even after conviction. He has no criminal convictions. He faces probation or very little jail time.

There is negligence in what happened for sure. But people get confused and even many lawyers who do not practice in this field get confused. This is a negligence case that is a great civil case. Baldwin was negligent in hiring the armorer, and having a dangerous set. But that is civil case for money damages. He and his production company should get nailed big time for money damages. But this is not criminal. How in the world do you hold someone criminally responsible for a civil duty of care of not checking whether there was live rounds in a gun. There were two other people who are specifically responsible for making sure that it safe before it is given to the actor.

I think you are right about the 5 years. Also right about him talking after being advised not to, he thinks he is smarter than the attorneys advising him, happens a lot with people who think a lot about themselves. I do think he will see the inside of a jail cell for 18 months, and should consider himself lucky. You are making good points but I think as always there is more to the story. I’m also not so sure he has a lot of friends from that set, wait until they call the people who left the set for safety reasons. He’s going to be exposed for the arrogant jackass that he is. His arrogance has been exposed before. Juries don’t fall for phonies. He would be best served keeping his mouth shut but he will screw himself if he goes to trial. His attorneys already know he’s his own worse enemy. Do you think they will cut a deal before he sees the courtroom?

 

[HALL85]

I think you are right about the 5 years. Also right about him talking after being advised not to, he thinks he is smarter than the attorneys advising him, happens a lot with people who think a lot about themselves. I do think he will see the inside of a jail cell for 18 months, and should consider himself lucky. You are making good points but I think as always there is more to the story. I’m also not so sure he has a lot of friends from that set, wait until they call the people who left the set for safety reasons. He’s going to be exposed for the arrogant jackass that he is. His arrogance has been exposed before. Juries don’t fall for phonies. He would be best served keeping his mouth shut but he will screw himself if he goes to trial. His attorneys already know he’s his own worse enemy. Do you think they will cut a deal before he sees the courtroom?

The irony is that Baldwin has the same type of arrogance of the guy he impersonated on SNL.

 

[ed odowd]

A deal will be made 6 months if that n jail IMO ,not right but the way world works.

 

[cernjSHU]

And the Indictment against Alec Baldwin will be dismissed. As it should be.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/20/entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-charges/index.html

 

[HALL85]

Money talks.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

He murdered a woman and skates because of who he is and his wealth

 

[Merge]

Money talks.

Money helps, but this case was always a stretch.

Negligence, when people were hired to be responsible for the guns on set would not fall on an actor.

Same with Brandon Lee when he died. Had someone checked the gun, Lee would be alive. The actor who pulled the trigger was never charged because that is clearly not their responsibility on a movie set.

 

[CL82]

. The actor who pulled the trigger was never charged because that is clearly not their responsibility on a movie set.

It should be. Verifying that the weapon was safe before firing absolutely should be the responsibility of the person with their finger on the trigger.

For what it’s worth, though the charges were dismissed, the investigation continues, and the prosecutors can re-file at a future date.

 

[cernjSHU]

This case never should have been brought. As I said it from the start as a former prosecutor, there was no way to prove this case criminally. Those of you who think this is murder have no idea what murder means. It’s the purposeful killing of another. Not an accident. This has nothing to do with money.

The prosecutors who indicted him were incompetent abs were way over their skill level. Now, there is an outstanding personal injury law suit for the negligence on the set that led to this tragedy. But that is not criminal.

 

[Merge]

It should be. Verifying that the weapon was safe before firing absolutely should be the responsibility of the person with their finger on the trigger.

For what it’s worth, though the charges were dismissed, the investigation continues, and the prosecutors can re-file at a future date.

You may think it should be, but it's not and that's why the charges were dropped. That's why the guy killed Brandon Lee wasn't charged.
They hire people to be responsible for the safety of the weapons on set. Establishing criminal negligence on an actor who relied on their expert is a stretch, and like I said previously, no actor should ever pick up a weapon on any set ever again if that were the case.

 

[shu09]

Money helps, but this case was always a stretch.

Negligence, when people were hired to be responsible for the guns on set would not fall on an actor.

Same with Brandon Lee when he died. Had someone checked the gun, Lee would be alive. The actor who pulled the trigger was never charged because that is clearly not their responsibility on a movie set.

Of course, because in America the rich and powerful skate while the peasants pay the price for their actions.

 

[Merge]

Of course, because in America the rich and powerful skate while the peasants pay the price for their actions.

Being rich will certainly help with his defense, but if he weren't an A list celebrity he probably would have never been charged in the first place just like Michael Massee wasn't charged when Brandon Lee died.

It's not about being rich, it's about what is and isn't a criminal offense. Based on the facts of this case, this really just isn't one. No actor would or should be liable because they relied on someone who was hired as an expert.

 

[shu09]

The man who pulled the trigger is the one responsible. Nobody else.

 

[Merge]

The man who pulled the trigger is the one responsible. Nobody else.

In your opinion, sure. That is not how the law works though.

Actors are not expected nor are they required to be an expert on handling guns and ammo. They hire people for that task. You can argue they should be, and I wouldn't disagree with the idea but until there is a law making that a requirement, it's just an opinion to have.

 

[cernjSHU]

It should be. Verifying that the weapon was safe before firing absolutely should be the responsibility of the person with their finger on the trigger.

For what it’s worth, though the charges were dismissed, the investigation continues, and the prosecutors can re-file at a future date.

He will be held liable for what occurred but in a civil case for a wrongful death action. Money damages. This case in no way resembled a criminal case.

 

[HALL85]

In your opinion, sure. That is not how the law works though.

Actors are not expected nor are they required to be an expert on handling guns and ammo. They hire people for that task. You can argue they should be, and I wouldn't disagree with the idea but until there is a law making that a requirement, it's just an opinion to have.

If you are holding a gun, you should check the weapon before using it. It’s not a question of legality, it’s the responsibility that comes with it.

Baldwin will have to live the rest of his life knowing he killed a woman, wife and mother because of his carelessness and negligence.

 

[Merge]

It’s not a question of legality

Unless you are talking about the law and any potential charges against Baldwin which is what this thread is about.

Baldwin will have to live the rest of his life knowing he killed a woman, wife and mother because of his carelessness and negligence.

and I am sure that living with that will weight on him.

 

[HALL85]

Unless you are talking about the law and any potential charges against Baldwin which is what this thread is about.

It’s about legality and also being responsible with a gun.

and I am sure that living with that will weight on him.

I agree…couldn’t imagine it.