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American Rescue Plan

https://www.mcall.com/news/breaking...0220929-wjodldp6rfabfkoxdb6kozewxy-story.html

And we wonder why people question politicians and the money that gets appropriated. This ran in our local paper. Is this really in the spirit of what the stimulus money was intended?

Maybe? Funds were meant for businesses impacted by the pandemic.
Haven't looked into it but I'd imagine there was probably a significant amount of lost revenue, and the city deems that the team is vital to the community?
 
Maybe? Funds were meant for businesses impacted by the pandemic.
Haven't looked into it but I'd imagine there was probably a significant amount of lost revenue, and the city deems that the team is vital to the community?
They received PPP and ERTC money through the pandemic. The rationale they are using is pretty weak (concern that the Phillies would abandon the team) as the Iron Pigs have been in the top three minor league teams in attendance. Most Major League teams would jump at having their AAA team here. Would be nice if we could send unused money back.
 
Let's not kid ourselves. Going after Covid money was a sport for county governments. I know and work with people in that that article. At one point they considered using Covid money to replace their ERP. Another County I worked with was going to create a citizen portal on their website using Covid funds. It was a project they were looking to do anyway and had nothing to do with Covid. They lacked the funding and so they delayed it several years. When Covid money was on the table the portal was "now aimed at providing Covid resources to citizens"

Its kinda like the "Inflation Reduction Act"
 
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“There have certainly been a lot of studies done nationally about the impact of sports stadiums,” Cunningham said. “I tend to look beyond if there’s a dollar-for-dollar payback on the economic investment, and look at what it means to the community as a cultural asset, as a place where people gather, as a place that people identify with and are proud of. Communities and cities need to build those types of things.”

Ultimately it's a balance between the harsh reality of business, profit and loss, and funding cultural undertakings. If we did all the things we would like to, we would be financially bankrupt. If we did none of those things, we would be cultural bankrupt.

There is saying in live theater, "if you want make a small fortune in theater, start with a large fortune." Stadiums tend to go the same way.

 
“There have certainly been a lot of studies done nationally about the impact of sports stadiums,” Cunningham said. “I tend to look beyond if there’s a dollar-for-dollar payback on the economic investment, and look at what it means to the community as a cultural asset, as a place where people gather, as a place that people identify with and are proud of. Communities and cities need to build those types of things.”

Ultimately it's a balance between the harsh reality of business, profit and loss, and funding cultural undertakings. If we did all the things we would like to, we would be financially bankrupt. If we did none of those things, we would be cultural bankrupt.

There is saying in live theater, "if you want make a small fortune in theater, start with a large fortune." Stadiums tend to go the same way.

Don's actually a good guy and spokesman for the region, but this is all political platitudes. The Iron Pigs are not leaving the area because they can't get ARP money to expand the dressing rooms. Pespi Cola Park is only 12 years old....MLB is requiring upgrades for the AAA parks. The $3 million isn't rescuing anything. MLB (and the Phillies) are not going to exit one of their best AAA markets because upgrades like these. These capital projects are usually part of the budgeting process and the fact that they draw so well, it's a pretty weak argument .
 
Don's actually a good guy and spokesman for the region, but this is all political platitudes. The Iron Pigs are not leaving the area because they can't get ARP money to expand the dressing rooms. Pespi Cola Park is only 12 years old....MLB is requiring upgrades for the AAA parks. The $3 million isn't rescuing anything. MLB (and the Phillies) are not going to exit one of their best AAA markets because upgrades like these. These capital projects are usually part of the budgeting process and the fact that they draw so well, it's a pretty weak argument .

There are rules to using that money and with an expenditure that large, there are reporting requirements to explain why the project is related to Covid.

Seems like you're making a fair argument. You should file suit as a concerned resident.
 
There are rules to using that money and with an expenditure that large, there are reporting requirements to explain why the project is related to Covid.

Seems like you're making a fair argument. You should file suit as a concerned resident.
Do you file suit with everything you disagree with that may be in violation of the law?
 
Do you file suit with everything you disagree with that may be in violation of the law?

No?

Seems like you are passionate about this topic and have standing as a resident in the area?
Like I said, they will have to support their case and would probably be less likely to be able to if the concerned citizens of the area fought against it.

You could probably shut it down if you wanted to. Go for it.
 
I've read some articles regarding PPP funds and honestly you can understand why any tax-payer has major problems with these large spending government initiatives, even those that are well-intentioned. The amount of fraud and money wasted is staggering.
 
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No?

Seems like you are passionate about this topic and have standing as a resident in the area?
Like I said, they will have to support their case and would probably be less likely to be able to if the concerned citizens of the area fought against it.

You could probably shut it down if you wanted to. Go for it.
Passionate? No. Just posting another example of government waste and irresponsibility.
 
I've read some articles regarding PPP funds and honestly you can understand why any tax-payer has major problems with these large spending government initiatives, even those that are well-intentioned. The amount of fraud and money wasted is staggering.

We could design systems which would have much better controls in place but that would also delay the effectiveness of what the spending is trying to accomplish. It's a trade off we make. We could spend more time (and money) vetting where all of the money was going, but that would mean there would be many who needed the funding quickly but wouldn't get it.

We could let each dollar be approved by the US treasury but then we would be here complaining about the red tape bureaucracies and all of the businesses that were closed because we took to long to help.
 
We could design systems which would have much better controls in place but that would also delay the effectiveness of what the spending is trying to accomplish. It's a trade off we make. We could spend more time (and money) vetting where all of the money was going, but that would mean there would be many who needed the funding quickly but wouldn't get it.

We could let each dollar be approved by the US treasury but then we would be here complaining about the red tape bureaucracies and all of the businesses that were closed because we took to long to help.
It’s two years later and the money hasn’t been spent. I’m just asking a question as to why minor-league baseball team “needs” this money.

This type of spending erodes public confidence in our government institutions.
 
It’s two years later and the money hasn’t been spent. I’m just asking a question as to why minor-league baseball team “needs” this money.

This type of spending erodes public confidence in our government institutions.

Have you attended the counsel meetings, or asked the city to explain why they need the money and how it relates to Covid?
 
We could design systems which would have much better controls in place but that would also delay the effectiveness of what the spending is trying to accomplish. It's a trade off we make. We could spend more time (and money) vetting where all of the money was going, but that would mean there would be many who needed the funding quickly but wouldn't get it.

We could let each dollar be approved by the US treasury but then we would be here complaining about the red tape bureaucracies and all of the businesses that were closed because we took to long to help.
I understand the timing issues in many of these cases. But there has to be some solution that is better than billions of dollars of tax payer money -- a good chunk of which is already paid by folks saturated in taxes -- going towards fraud. And it is also why I understand folks are skeptic when government passes one of these massive bills that supposedly goes towards fixing a obvious problem. Like Biden's Infrastructure bill, that I know you are fond of. Count me all in on fixing roads, bridges, tunnels and the like. That's one of the things that tax payer $ should go toward. But skeptics, like me, wonder how much of that goes towards promptly addressing those issues, as opposed to handouts to favored groups (unions, green energy investments that politicians have interest in politically or even monetarily, picking "winners" versus "losers" for government contracts based on political support/favor as opposed to the best solution, etc).
 
Have you attended the counsel meetings, or asked the city to explain why they need the money and how it relates to Covid?
Yeah, I know the players and information. So? Do you?
 
I understand the timing issues in many of these cases. But there has to be some solution that is better than billions of dollars of tax payer money -- a good chunk of which is already paid by folks saturated in taxes -- going towards fraud.

I do think that is something we get better at policing as we go. Like the recent articles of people who were caught for fake PPP loans. Is it better to prevent the fraud in the first place? Of course, but it depends if it slows down our ability to act quickly and my guess is that it would.

Count me all in on fixing roads, bridges, tunnels and the like. That's one of the things that tax payer $ should go toward. But skeptics, like me, wonder how much of that goes towards promptly addressing those issues, as opposed to handouts to favored groups (unions, green energy investments that politicians have interest in politically or even monetarily, picking "winners" versus "losers" for government contracts based on political support/favor as opposed to the best solution, etc).

That is perfectly reasonable.
 
Yeah, I know the players and information. So? Do you?

No I don't. Just wondering if you have asked the questions you are curious about to the people who would have the answers?

That's who I would start with, especially since you knows the players and information.
 
No I don't. Just wondering if you have asked the questions you are curious about to the people who would have the answers?

That's who I would start with, especially since you knows the players and information.
I know if enough from speaking with them to know this was clearly not in the spirit purpose of AMR money.
 
I know if enough from speaking with them to know this was clearly not in the spirit purpose of AMR money.

That's even better if you have confirmed the mismanagement.
Here ya go, here is a formal complaint for you to fill out.


This isn't meant with snark. I am being 100% honest that you should fill this out if you know the people and have confirmed it was clearly not for the purposes as laid out in the bill.
 
That's even better if you have confirmed the mismanagement.
Here ya go, here is a formal complaint for you to fill out.


This isn't meant with snark. I am being 100% honest that you should fill this out if you know the people and have confirmed it was clearly not for the purposes as laid out in the bill.
Lol. You’re being honest…You know there is a difference between doing something that is illegal versus something not in the spirit of the law.
 
The last thing you want to do is show up at a commissioner's meeting and ask questions in a public forum.

I have to attend commissioners meetings because my contracts get voted on and depending on what's going on I get called to the podium.

When we're waiting for our items on the agenda it is a comedy show listening to all the idiots who stand up at the podium ad hoc thinking they can actually accomplish something.

My favorite response was always given by commissioner Dougherty...,"thank you for your input. Is there anyone else that wishes to make a public comment......no....okay then let's move on to the first item on the agenda."

LOL
 
Lol. You’re being honest…You know there is a difference between doing something that is illegal versus something not in the spirit of the law.

That link isn’t just for illegal activity.
It’s for misuse.

You believe the funds being used are not appropriate based on your discussions with those in charge. Fill it out.
 
That link isn’t just for illegal activity.
It’s for misuse.

You believe the funds being used are not appropriate based on your discussions with those in charge. Fill it out.
Is this is the best you got?

Ok, I’ll “fill out the form” and let you know if I get a response…lol
 
Is this is the best you got?

Ok, I’ll “fill out the form” and let you know if I get a response…lol

Best I’ve got?
what does that even mean in this context?

I’m not arguing with you. Rather than ask the rhetorical question on a message board since you already had your answer from those in charge… I’m just giving you the actual resource where you can make the complaint formal.
 
Best I’ve got?
what does that even mean in this context?

I’m not arguing with you. Rather than ask the rhetorical question on a message board since you already had your answer from those in charge… I’m just giving you the actual resource where you can make the complaint formal.
Just stop…enjoy the football today…:)
 
No?

Seems like you are passionate about this topic and have standing as a resident in the area?
Like I said, they will have to support their case and would probably be less likely to be able to if the concerned citizens of the area fought against it.

You could probably shut it down if you wanted to. Go for it.
prob golfs with these people lol. you gave him a pretty simple way to deal with a "problem" he claims upsets him. clearly he doesnt want to actually fix it. he cant do that to his buddies!
 
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I do think that is something we get better at policing as we go. Like the recent articles of people who were caught for fake PPP loans. Is it better to prevent the fraud in the first place? Of course, but it depends if it slows down our ability to act quickly and my guess is that it would.



That is perfectly reasonable.
If you have a Wall Street Journal account, take a look at the article today on COVID-related unemployment fraud. I would post it here but don’t believe that’s allowed. $46 billion in fraud, and counting. Estimates of possibly $100 billion in total, if not more. The IG brought these issues to the Labor Department’s attention like 2 years ago, and it doesn’t seem like anything is being done to stop it in any real way. Legislation apparently that has been proposed by a group - not sure specifics - is being consistently blocked.

Goes back to the skepticism many of us have with this stuff. If I was a politician that voted to block COVID unemployment legislation, or at least insisted on certain guard rails, I’d be called all kinds of terrible names by many and labeled bad things by mainstream media.
 
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If you have a Wall Street Journal account, take a look at the article today on COVID-related unemployment fraud. I would post it here but don’t believe that’s allowed. $46 billion in fraud, and counting. Estimates of possibly $100 billion in total, if not more. The IG brought these issues to the Labor Department’s attention like 2 years ago, and it doesn’t seem like anything is being done to stop it in any real way. Legislation apparently that has been proposed by a group - not sure specifics - is being consistently blocked.

Goes back to the skepticism many of us have with this stuff. If I was a politician that voted to block COVID unemployment legislation, or at least insisted on certain guard rails, I’d be called all kinds of terrible names by many and labeled bad things by mainstream media.

Right, about 5% to fraud.

That’s not good, no one will argue it is but the question is if we should pay out 100% even knowing 5% will go to fraud or pay out nothing because we don’t have a way to get fraud to 0%.

March - April 2020 was a historic level of loss in employment. We didn’t have the luxury of having time to make sure each system in each state would be managed well enough to prevent fraud.

There are many bad actors, and will always be people trying to take advantage of a program like that but the consequence of letting the potential bad actors block a rapid response would be a worse outcome from my view.

Fund the programs and go after bad actors later and patch the holes as you go would always be my preferred action.
 
prob golfs with these people lol. you gave him a pretty simple way to deal with a "problem" he claims upsets him. clearly he doesnt want to actually fix it. he cant do that to his buddies!

Yep. Seems to me it’s “I wonder if this will help me win an argument on the internet” rather than “I wonder if this is allowable under the law”
 
Right, about 5% to fraud.

That’s not good, no one will argue it is but the question is if we should pay out 100% even knowing 5% will go to fraud or pay out nothing because we don’t have a way to get fraud to 0%.

March - April 2020 was a historic level of loss in employment. We didn’t have the luxury of having time to make sure each system in each state would be managed well enough to prevent fraud.

There are many bad actors, and will always be people trying to take advantage of a program like that but the consequence of letting the potential bad actors block a rapid response would be a worse outcome from my view.

Fund the programs and go after bad actors later and patch the holes as you go would always be my preferred action.
5% that we know of.
 
Yep. Seems to me it’s “I wonder if this will help me win an argument on the internet” rather than “I wonder if this is allowable under the law”
“It seems to me”….Poor baby…lol
 
Right, about 5% to fraud.

That’s not good, no one will argue it is but the question is if we should pay out 100% even knowing 5% will go to fraud or pay out nothing because we don’t have a way to get fraud to 0%.

March - April 2020 was a historic level of loss in employment. We didn’t have the luxury of having time to make sure each system in each state would be managed well enough to prevent fraud.

There are many bad actors, and will always be people trying to take advantage of a program like that but the consequence of letting the potential bad actors block a rapid response would be a worse outcome from my view.

Fund the programs and go after bad actors later and patch the holes as you go would always be my preferred action.
So having lax procedures for March - April 2020, or immediately thereafter, I get under the circumstances. Once we got into the fall 2020 and beyond this stuff should have been clamped down. Your point on the immediacy concerns is a good one - you need to get $ in unemployed folks pockets quickly. But once we get a certain amount of time outside that bubble, stuff needs to be reigned in.
 
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So having lax procedures for March - April 2020, or immediately thereafter, I get under the circumstances. Once we got into the fall 2020 and beyond this stuff should have been clamped down. Your point on the immediacy concerns is a good one - you need to get $ in unemployed folks pockets quickly. But once we get a certain amount of time outside that bubble, stuff needs to be reigned in.

I agree, and that’s what we’re doing. That’s how we found this fraud and have identified all these criminals. Additionally, the GAO has made hundreds of recommendations in how to address some of the holes.
 
I actually have played golf with these folks. They stink at it but that's not the point

Anyway the general consensus is it may be a waste of spending but we might as well waste the spending in our own backyard because if we don't it's going to get wasted in somebody else's backyard.

The consensus doesn't apply just to COVID funding but in all kinds of state funding in general.
 
I agree, and that’s what we’re doing. That’s how we found this fraud and have identified all these criminals. Additionally, the GAO has made hundreds of recommendations in how to address some of the holes.
If we go after them and actually recoup the ill-gotten gains, or send people to jail (or fine them) as a future deterrent, I'm on board. But the WSJ article I read made it seem as if we are basically 19+ months into the IG advising the Labor Department of this, and changes to legislation is being held up by politicians not too keen on actually addressing this wrong. Hope you are right.
 
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