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And now the Supreme Court will get even worse

Bobbie Solo

All World
Dec 31, 2003
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Bayonne Leave It Alone
with Kennedy announcing his retirement as of 7/31. Trump will pick someone far worse than Gorsuch this time imo. He's not listening to advisors much anymore, and simply doing whatever he can to feed up red meat to his base. This pick will probably be the ultimate red meat.
 
Says who? It may or it may not.

Kennedy has been IMO the best judge the court has had for a very long time. It was a great appointment by Reagan and his voting record is the most fair and balanced. To get a judge approved is a big process and I'm sure the Dems will drag it out as long as possible. I don't think they get a far right judge approved so easily. Gorsuch is not far right either by the way. He will be more fair than Sotomayor or sleepy Ginsburg or Thomas. They simply vote one way no matter what the law says. Useless judges IMO.
 
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With the nuclear option now in place, the dems will have no options to drag it out. I am hopeful for an orginalist.
 
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I will take back everything I have ever said about Trump if he nominates Merrick Garland.

Lol. Good luck with that.

Although to be honest, he should. That's how you bring people together. And shame on Mitch McConnell for bragging about holding up that nomination. Now he wants to push this one through before the midterms. The definition of a political swamp creature.
 
shame on Mitch McConnell for bragging about holding up that nomination. Now he wants to push this one through before the midterms. The definition of a political swamp creature.

No restaurants for him!
 
With the nuclear option now in place, the dems will have no options to drag it out. I am hopeful for an orginalist.

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as a civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson

An originalist would be directly opposed to what Jefferson believed.
 
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as a civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson

An originalist would be directly opposed to what Jefferson believed.

Excellent quote.

A strict originalist would be opposed.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jefferson including his opening sentence.

The Supreme Court is a crucial component in the triad of our government. I believe it has become too political and hope at some point we can get it back to an independent body that interprets the laws the congress makes.
 
Verb of the day:


"Bork"

1. obstruct (someone, especially a candidate for public office) through systematic defamation or vilification.

“We're going to bork him,” said an opponent'.
 
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as a civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson

An originalist would be directly opposed to what Jefferson believed.

Wasn't that quote intended for the legislative branch of government (and rightly so)? Therefore, what does that have to do with being an originalist? Laws can be changed. By the legislative branch, not the judicial branch.
 
Wasn't that quote intended for the legislative branch of government (and rightly so)? Therefore, what does that have to do with being an originalist? Laws can be changed. By the legislative branch, not the judicial branch.

I read this as there should be a strict interpretation of the Constitution with some consideration for things in society and the world that have changed.

If you take the time to read the Roe v. Wade decision you will see that it was argued on the 14th Amendment and in particular on the issue of privacy.

While the issue today is mostly argued on when conception occurs, the Supreme Court was obligated to argue on the laws that existed.

If you listen to the Scalia video I posted, this may resonate.

If you have ever sat on jury you learn that the judge is a referee. They are charged with applying the rules that exist.
 
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Can a fellow get a truly nonpartisan justice or should I just go eff myself?
 
Can a fellow get a truly nonpartisan justice or should I just go eff myself?

I mean, every president is going to appoint a judge that leans the way he leans. Has been going on for decades. Thomas, Alito, Ginsburg, Sotomayor. Scalia while he was there. Kagan. They're all so entrenched on either side that you know how they're going to vote 90-95% of the time.

It would be nice, though, if we could form a court with judges who look at every issue independently. In theory, the appointee should be the most qualified for the role, regardless of ideology.
 
So it's Kavanaugh. I don't know much about him, but he seems qualified from what I've read so far.

I'm not a fan of people who were tied to the Bush family and I'm surprised Trump selected him. He needs to prove that he can separate his politics from the bench. I'm sure his record will be parsed extensively, as it should be.
 
Good choice, interpret laws, not write them.

Would expect pushback form the dems, rightly so after the repubs stole Garland's seat.

Hypocrisy rules the day.
 
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So it's Kavanaugh. I don't know much about him, but he seems qualified from what I've read so far.

I'm not a fan of people who were tied to the Bush family and I'm surprised Trump selected him. He needs to prove that he can separate his politics from the bench. I'm sure his record will be parsed extensively, as it should be.

Apparently, Kavanaugh wrote an article stating that a sitting President could or should not be indicted. Ding ding ding for Trump.
 
Apparently, Kavanaugh wrote an article stating that a sitting President could or should not be indicted. Ding ding ding for Trump.

Nope.

Kavanaugh’s Papers Don’t Help Trump Avoid Indictment

Noah Feldman

(Bloomberg Opinion) -- Some Democrats and advocacy groups are saying President Donald Trump picked Judge Brett Kavanaugh as his second nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court because of Kavanaugh’s view that a president shouldn’t be indicted while in office. It’s important that not become the narrativeof the Democrats’ opposition, because it can easily be refuted.

Properly understood, Kavanaugh’s expressed views actually support the opposite conclusion: that the president can be investigated and maybe even indicted unless Congress passes a law saying he can’t — which Congress has not done.

The key texts here Kavanaugh’s 2009 article in the Minnesota Law Review and his 1998 article in the Georgetown Law Journal.

In the 2009 piece, Kavanaugh, then newly appointed as a judge, acknowledged that in the 1990s, when he was working for independent counsel Ken Starr on the Bill Clinton investigation, he thought the president should be subject to criminal investigation while in office. But, he said, after working for George W. Bush in the White House, he had come to realize that the demands of the presidency required all the president’s attention. He even implied that the Starr investigation distracted Clinton from focusing on Osama bin Laden.

Now comes the tricky part. In 2009, Kavanaugh proposed that Congress might pass a law that would protect the president from investigation and indictment while in office. That’s the part that some Democrats are focusing on now — because Kavanaugh was saying that he thought it was a bad idea to go after the president.

But from a legal and constitutional perspective, Kavanaugh wasn’t saying that the courts should find that the president shouldn’t be investigated or indicted. To the contrary. He was saying that Congressshould pass a law ensuring that result, because without it, the president was open to being investigated — and maybe even indicted.

Pause to take that in. If a law by Congress is necessary to fix the problem, it follows that without such a law, it is perfectly permissible under the Constitution to investigate a sitting president, as Starr did.

Although Kavanaugh didn’t expressly say that a sitting president may constitutionally be indicted, it is a plausible implication of his article. Otherwise, there would be no pressing need for Congress to pass a law saying that he could not be. The courts could intervene and save the president from indictment.

In the 1998 article, Kavanaugh avoided taking a position on whether a sitting president can be indicted, calling it “debatable.” That’s actually a pretty strong pro-indictment view, because many, probably most constitutional scholars think a sitting president can’t be indicted.

Several implications flow from this reading of Kavanaugh’s articles.

The first is that Kavanaugh wants to be legally consistent. His Minnesota article doesn’t contradict the legal view he held as a Starr team member or what he wrote in 1998 piece, in which he advocated for changes to the independent counsel statute. He just changed his views about what would be good legislative policy. For a lawyer, that’s not a contradiction.

Kavanaugh knew from the moment he went on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit that he might be nominated to the Supreme Court some day. He was being careful in the article not to contradict himself. That’s the kind of orderly, precise thinker he is. It helps explain why everyone in the legal establishment has seen him for a decade as a likely future justice.

Another implication is that Kavanaugh shouldn’t be charged with hypocrisy for the development in his prudential view. There’s nothing wrong about realizing that the president shouldn’t be investigated after you investigated him. When Kavanaugh published his article, Bush wasn’t in office. Barack Obama was. Kavanaugh’s evolution is thus less situationally hypocritical than that of Democrats who opposed the Starr investigation and now embrace the probe by special counsel Robert Mueller.

A third implication is that Kavanaugh may not accept the late Justice Antonin Scalia’s view that the Constitution bars the appointment of an independent counsel. This is subtle, but stick with me.

In the 1998 article, Kavanaugh called for changes in the independent counsel statute, but said that having some independent counsel was useful. That means that at the time, he believed there could be a constitutional independent counsel statute.

Kavanaugh’s proposed law from 2008 also wouldn’t be strictly necessary if there were no independent counsel, because the president could protect himself from indictment. Scalia would not have needed such a law protecting the president, because he thought the Constitution did not allow for independent counsels.

Thus Kavanaugh thinks Starr’s investigation was constitutional. That, in turn, marks him as less of an executive-power extremist than Scalia.

Of course, I’m not saying that Trump knows any of this. Who knows what goes through Trump’s mind? He might easily have picked Kavanaugh because he thinks he knows what the judge thinks.

But believe me, he doesn’t. Kavanaugh has been playing legal and constitutional chess for a long time. He knows just what to say when asked about his articles. Trying to oppose him on logically backward grounds doesn’t serve anyone’s interests — certainly not Democrats’.

©2018 Bloomberg L.P.
 
I noticed there was some hand wringing as to whether his nomination was tied to his views on indicting a sitting President and I agree it should be vetted. Democrats, however, should be taking the long view. Brett Kavanaugh may have an impact on the court for over 30 years while it is unlikely President Trump serve more than 15 more years.
 
Although Kavanaugh didn’t expressly say that a sitting president may constitutionally be indicted, it is a plausible implication of his article. Otherwise, there would be no pressing need for Congress to pass a law saying that he could not be. The courts could intervene and save the president from indictment.

I looked it up this morning when I saw the buzz on twitter. Agree with the assessment you posted.
He was saying congress should should pass a law to protect the president which seems to imply the president is not protected by the constitution.

Certainly a question that should come up in the hearings, but I think dems should be able to get an answer that gives them some comfort.
They will all still vote no anyway, so I don't see this as one of the bigger issues in the hearings.
 
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Apparently, Kavanaugh wrote an article stating that a sitting President could or should not be indicted. Ding ding ding for Trump.

Seems like a decent pick. The whole idea that Trump picked him because of the comment that a sitting President should not be indicted seems a little far fetched, as he still only has a single vote, plus whether you agree or disagree if a President should be indicted, the points he makes about why not a good idea are definitely legitimate. But this seems to be the drum the Dems are banging loudly to start.
 
Seems like a decent pick. The whole idea that Trump picked him because of the comment that a sitting President should not be indicted seems a little far fetched, as he still only has a single vote, plus whether you agree or disagree if a President should be indicted, the points he makes about why not a good idea are definitely legitimate. But this seems to be the drum the Dems are banging loudly to start.

To be fair, they should be concerned.
If Mueller finds wrong doing against Trump and congress does not act, Mueller could move to indict Trump and the issue of whether Trump can be indicted will most likely end up at the supreme court.

I think it is important to understand Kavanaugh's views on that matter.. and I would say the same thing if it were a democrat potentially doing the same thing and I would not want a president established that would allow a president to be free of consequences of the law while in office.

Like I said earlier though, I do not believe this issue will be the one that decides the fate of the seat as Kavanaugh is likely to say that he does not believe the constitution protects the president from indictment.

I think any potential holdup for him will be abortion if Collins and Murkowski believe he would be likely to overturn Roe v Wade.
Outside of that, I expect he will be confirmed in partisan fashion.
 
http://www.minnesotalawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Kavanaugh_MLR.pdf

Please read the article for yourself. Then let's debate the contents.

I think it is clear that Kavanaugh thinks that civil and criminal indictments of a sitting President is a bad idea. However, I think this passage is very telling:
"A second possible concern is that the country needs a check against a bad-behaving or law-breaking President. But the Constitution already provides that check. If the President does something dastardly, the impeachment process is available.33No single prosecutor, judge, or jury should be able to accom- plish what the Constitution assigns to the Congress.34 Moreo- ver, an impeached and removed President is still subject to criminal prosecution afterwards. In short, the Constitution es- tablishes a clear mechanism to deter executive malfeasance; we should not burden a sitting President with civil suits, criminal investigations, or criminal prosecutions.35 The President’s job is difficult enough as is. And the country loses when the Presi- dent’s focus is distracted by the burdens of civil litigation or criminal investigation and possible prosecution."

I think it is clear that he would say that the Constitution gives the only mechanism to remove a President from a law-breaking President and that is impeachment.
 
How come you left out these parts?

With that in mind, it would be appropriate for Congress to enact a statute providing that any personal civil suits against presidents, like certain members of the military, be deferred while the President is in office.

Congress should consider doing the same, moreover, with respect to criminal investigations and prosecutions of the President. In particular, Congress might consider a law exempting a President—while in office—from criminal prosecution and investigation, including from questioning by criminal prosecutors or defense counsel. Criminal investigations targeted at or revolving around a President are inevitably politicized by both their supporters and critics. As I have written before, “no Attorney General or special counsel will have the necessary credibility to avoid the inevitable charges that he is politically motivated—whether in favor of the President or against him, depending on the individual leading the investigation and its results."

One might raise at least two important critiques of these ideas. The first is that no one is above the law in our system of government. I strongly agree with that principle. But it is not ultimately a persuasive criticism of these suggestions. The point is not to put the President above the law or to eliminate checks on the President, but simply to defer litigation and investigations until the President is out of office.

Clearly Kavanaugh is talking about Congress passing a law, not judicial overreach.

Liberal hysteria.............
 
How come you left out these parts?

With that in mind, it would be appropriate for Congress to enact a statute providing that any personal civil suits against presidents, like certain members of the military, be deferred while the President is in office.

Congress should consider doing the same, moreover, with respect to criminal investigations and prosecutions of the President. In particular, Congress might consider a law exempting a President—while in office—from criminal prosecution and investigation, including from questioning by criminal prosecutors or defense counsel. Criminal investigations targeted at or revolving around a President are inevitably politicized by both their supporters and critics. As I have written before, “no Attorney General or special counsel will have the necessary credibility to avoid the inevitable charges that he is politically motivated—whether in favor of the President or against him, depending on the individual leading the investigation and its results."

One might raise at least two important critiques of these ideas. The first is that no one is above the law in our system of government. I strongly agree with that principle. But it is not ultimately a persuasive criticism of these suggestions. The point is not to put the President above the law or to eliminate checks on the President, but simply to defer litigation and investigations until the President is out of office.

Clearly Kavanaugh is talking about Congress passing a law, not judicial overreach.

Liberal hysteria.............

The first paragraph talks about a law being passed about civil lawsuits against Presidents being delayed until they are out of office. This thinking is something that I do which I do agree.

However, this part that you cite precedes precedes the part in which I put down. In the portion that you cite, he is posing the question. In the section the I site, he provides the answer that there is no need for a law since the Constitution already provides an answer. I think it is clear he thinks that the President cannot be indicted and the only procedure is impeachment. That also means that the Special Counsel would not be able to subpoena a sitting President.

Dems must be careful here. They must view this candidate in terms of possible options. They can defeat him but will they get someone who is more extreme? Very possible.
 
Kavanaugh is as a slamdunk as you will see. I'm pretty sure that Collins and Mirkowski have already committed their votes privately. The only question now, is how long the proceedings will take.
 
Kavanaugh is as a slamdunk as you will see. I'm pretty sure that Collins and Mirkowski have already committed their votes privately. The only question now, is how long the proceedings will take.

You may be right. I don’t know enough about him to form an opinion. My only opinion is that Trump Nominated him because of his view that you cannot indict a sitting president and that in turn means he cannot be subpoenaed.
 
You may be right. I don’t know enough about him to form an opinion. My only opinion is that Trump Nominated him because of his view that you cannot indict a sitting president and that in turn means he cannot be subpoenaed.
Say what you will, but he has over 300 opinions and a text book resume, but that is the one thing you think is the reason for the pick.....actually of the four finalists he is the most bulletproof.
 
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