Apathy & A Young Team

[connel]

No one cares. This board which probably has the "best" and most intense fans is dead. We just got taken to the woodshed back to back at home. I didn't feel we had a puncher's chance in either game. Would love to see the stat sheet last night for deflections. Seemingly every possession Marquette had their hands on the ball. The number of live ball turnovers 25-30 feet from the basket was astounding. This is just a bad mix of players. No movement on offense. Clueless at times on defense.

Until you see this over and over in person it's hard to grasp. I do continually forget how young we are. It isn't so much making all the new pieces fit together as it is we are just a young & inexperienced team on the floor. Last night we mostly played:

Felton - Freshman
Coleman - Sophomore
Dual - Sophomore
Aligbe - Junior
Godswill - Freshman
Middleton - Sophomore

Marquette starts 2 Juniors and 3 Seniors that have been in the program for years. And they are highly talented. It shows.

 

[Bud Boomer]

This season has been cooked since December. Shaheen’s “my teams always get better” remarks never materialized. We are actually getting worse.

In prior years, we’d be hopeful about the development of Coleman and to a lesser extent Scotty and Felton. But it’s hard to shake the concern that Coleman will leave for money, along with anyone else who kills it over the last two months.

Pretty bleak times for Seton Hall.

 

[newshu1]

I would like the staff to focus less on athletic high ceiling guys who may put it together and more on high IQ, high effort guys who have shown results.

Example not give 300k to a lazy apathetic point guard who has the raw skills of an NBA Prospect

INSTEAD

Give 75k to a few high IQ midwestern kids from low D1 programs who have proven they play hard and smart and put up results allbeit it maybe vs inferior competition

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

I would like the staff to focus less on athletic high ceiling guys who may put it together and more on high IQ, high effort guys who have shown results.

Example not give 300k to a lazy apathetic point guard who has the raw skills of an NBA Prospect

INSTEAD

Give 75k to a few high IQ midwestern kids from low D1 programs who have proven they play hard and smart and put up results allbeit it maybe vs inferior competition

I really like this theory and it’s one I subscribe to myself. Because I cant watch this brand of basketball.

My only concern is that it will only take you so far.

It should not lose to the Monmouth and Fordham’s of the world. It might win you some more BE games against the bottom tier of the league.

But how does that high IQ basketball team with limited talent fair against high IQ basketball teams with much more talent such as Creighton, Marquette, and UConn.

It won’t be a train wreck, it will be more enjoyable to watch, but it will still fall very short of NCAA tournament expectations.

And according to the tone of the message board, anything less than that is an unacceptable standard at the Hall (and I don’t disagree). So how, does that change the overall direction of the Seton Hall MBB program? Is our goal to now just not suck that bad?

 

[MooneyHall07]

The on-court results don't matter anymore. Unfortunately the verdict on this year's team is in. For the most part, the roster will have to be turned over and wholesale changes will be made, with the exception of 4-5 players. Nothing from here until the BET is really going to change that.

The next big date on the calendar is March 24 when the Spring Transfer portal opens. After date, the next important date, and perhaps the most important day in recent history of the program, is April 7, when the House Settlement is scheduled to be approved. The immediate and long-term future of the program is likely to be determined by what happens next and our administration's ability to prepare for and respond to, the new era of revenue sharing.

By April 22, the last day of the Spring Transfer portal, we will likely know which way the program is trending.

 

[Piratz]

The home crowd was treated to 4/30 shooting on Saturday night in the first half, then 14 turnovers last night. Great way to start games. Good Lord.

It’s just bad. March-May will be more interesting as the only hope is we can rebuild fast. But who wants to come here?

 

[knowknow456]

Almost every thread/post is a variation of at least one of three themes

1. We don't have enough NIL money (Fire the administration)
2. We didn't spend our NIL budget wisely. (Fire the players)
3. Our on court product has not improved, relative to problems 1 &2. (Fire the coach)

Fortunately, there is an almost endless number of ways to repeat ourselves.

 

[Piratz]

I still think there are a handful of players to see if we can retain but the more time passes the more blowing it all up may not be so bad. What are we building? A losing culture where guys will just want to leave?

 

[ivyhillparkk1963]

Can't wait for every doomer to eat their words the day we win the big east championship. Miraculous turnaround they'll call it.
Am I dreaming? Of course but hey crazier things have happened..

 

[papacheesy2]

Can't wait for every doomer to eat their words the day we win the big east championship. Miraculous turnaround they'll call it.
Am I dreaming? Of course but hey crazier things have happened..

Ah yes the Patrick Ewing strategy!

 

[SOpirate]

Beating a dead horse here but I am desperate for a shred of hope to cling to. Is there any reason to think that.

1. We will have the budget to remain competitive next season.
2. The staff will learn from their mistakes and put together a better roster (I know “better is a very subjective word)

Not trying to be apocalyptic, but it really feels like the reaper has come for Seton Hall basketball.

 

[hallwins]

I would like the staff to focus less on athletic high ceiling guys who may put it together and more on high IQ, high effort guys who have shown results.

Example not give 300k to a lazy apathetic point guard who has the raw skills of an NBA Prospect

INSTEAD

Give 75k to a few high IQ midwestern kids from low D1 programs who have proven they play hard and smart and put up results allbeit it maybe vs inferior competition

It is scouting. Name me some recruits who were considered our first options this off season that have been stellar this year. There may be 1 or 2, but not many.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

I really like this theory and it’s one I subscribe to myself. Because I cant watch this brand of basketball.

My only concern is that it will only take you so far.

It should not lose to the Monmouth and Fordham’s of the world. It might win you some more BE games against the bottom tier of the league.

But how does that high IQ basketball team with limited talent fair against high IQ basketball teams with much more talent such as Creighton, Marquette, and UConn.

It won’t be a train wreck, it will be more enjoyable to watch, but it will still fall very short of NCAA tournament expectations.

And according to the tone of the message board, anything less than that is an unacceptable standard at the Hall (and I don’t disagree). So how, does that change the overall direction of the Seton Hall MBB program? Is our goal to now just not suck that bad?

I wanted to circle back around to this idea and take it one step further.

I would like to use DePaul this year as a comparison. And please bear with me here. Don’t compare this year’s DePaul to all their historical failure. Pretend they were coming off a similar track record as Seton Hall, the end of the Willard years and the first two years under Sha.

Their roster is definitely made up of low D1 guys who play higher IQ basketball than we do. But also has some high major retreads.

Jacob Meyer (So.) from Coastal Carolina
- previously 15.7 ppg
CJ Gunn (Jr.) from Indiana
- previously 3.9 ppg
Isiah Rivera (5th year Senior) from Illinois Chi.
- previously 15.4 ppg
NJ Benson (Jr.) from Missouri St
- previously 8.6 ppg

I won’t do their entire roster. Those are their top 4 leading scorers currently.

They are 10-10 (1-8 BE)
Their sole win is vs Gtown without Sorber and Epps
They blew a 19 point lead to us
Lost by double digits to UConn and Xavier
Got smashed by 28 to SJU, 46 to Nova and 24 to Creighton, scoring 61, 56, and 49 respectively.
But did take Providence and MU to OT before losing.
Their OOC strength of schedule is ranked 355 out of 364 teams.
Lastly they did not win an OOC away from Wintrust.
Currently 122 Ken Pom

83 PPG - OOC vs 65 PPG - BE
Takes 28 - 3 pointers per game (32nd nationally)
More fundamentally sound, fun to watch, gritty team.

But ultimately their record is what it says they are.

What would the criticism look like if Sha went with less upside and put this roster on the floor with the same results Holtzman has gotten?

Just curious.

 

[radecicco]

We would say “Does Sha know what he’s doing?”

 

[Piratz]

I wanted to circle back around to this idea and take it one step further.

I would like to use DePaul this year as a comparison. And please bear with me here. Don’t compare this year’s DePaul to all their historical failure. Pretend they were coming off a similar track record as Seton Hall, the end of the Willard years and the first two years under Sha.

Their roster is definitely made up of low D1 guys who play higher IQ basketball than we do. But also has some high major retreads.

Jacob Meyer (So.) from Coastal Carolina
- previously 15.7 ppg
CJ Gunn (Jr.) from Indiana
- previously 3.9 ppg
Isiah Rivera (5th year Senior) from Illinois Chi.
- previously 15.4 ppg
NJ Benson (Jr.) from Missouri St
- previously 8.6 ppg

I won’t do their entire roster. Those are their top 4 leading scorers currently.

They are 10-10 (1-8 BE)
Their sole win is vs Gtown without Sorber and Epps
They blew a 19 point lead to us
Lost by double digits to UConn and Xavier
Got smashed by 28 to SJU, 46 to Nova and 24 to Creighton, scoring 61, 56, and 49 respectively.
But did take Providence and MU to OT before losing.
Their OOC strength of schedule is ranked 355 out of 364 teams.
Lastly they did not win an OOC away from Wintrust.
Currently 122 Ken Pom

83 PPG - OOC vs 65 PPG - BE
Takes 28 - 3 pointers per game (32nd nationally)
More fundamentally sound, fun to watch, gritty team.

But ultimately their record is what it says they are.

What would the criticism look like if Sha went with less upside and put this roster on the floor with the same results Holtzman has gotten?

Just curious.

People would be annoyed and apathetic. There’s been a standard here of NCAAT caliber play for 10 years or so, anything this bad would be the same issue regardless.

I think the lack of upward trend is also a problem. Sha gets much more grace here than his predecessors and understandably so, meaning if the team was playing better and things were improving you could point to that. We’ve actually gotten worse overall. We’re losing ground, not improving. Maybe that changes and we feel better 2 months from now even with crap record, idk.

Most people thought this would be an unknown/rebuilding year. NOT this level of ineptitude.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

People would be annoyed and apathetic. There’s been a standard here of NCAAT caliber play for 10 years or so, anything this bad would be the same issue regardless.

I think the lack of upward trend is also a problem. Sha gets much more grace here than his predecessors and understandably so, meaning if the team was playing better and things were improving you could point to that. We’ve actually gotten worse overall. We’re losing ground, not improving. Maybe that changes and we feel better 2 months from now even with crap record, idk.

Most people thought this would be an unknown/rebuilding year. NOT this level of ineptitude.

Not making excuses. But one could have said the Gtown through Butler games the team was playing better. Competitive scores, scoring was up, and certain players were getting better (Coleman, Aligbe, and Middleton).

To be fair we stepped up in competition vs SJU and Marquette and subsequently have lost two of our better players in Wusu and Jenkins. This team can absolutely not afford injury depletion with the limited talent it has.

Were the fans expecting the results in these last two games to be trending upwards?

 

[hallwins]

I would like the staff to focus less on athletic high ceiling guys who may put it together and more on high IQ, high effort guys who have shown results.

Example not give 300k to a lazy apathetic point guard who has the raw skills of an NBA Prospect

INSTEAD

Give 75k to a few high IQ midwestern kids from low D1 programs who have proven they play hard and smart and put up results allbeit it maybe vs inferior competition

It is scouting. Name me some recruits who were considered our first options this off season that have been stellar this year. There maybe 1 or 2, but not many.

 

[Piratz]

Not making excuses. But one could have said the Gtown through Butler games the team was playing better. Competitive scores, scoring was up, and certain players were getting better (Coleman, Aligbe, and Middleton).

To be fair we stepped up in competition vs SJU and Marquette and subsequently have lost two of our better players in Wusu and Jenkins. This team can absolutely not afford injury depletion with the limited talent it has.

Were the fans expecting the results in these last two games to be trending upwards?

I’m sure we can make arguments everywhere game-to-game and I also think some - small # - of the individuals have made progress, but overall the team has been getting worse by every objective measure. We lose to good teams and lose to bad teams. All year long.

The offense looked improved, and the defense faltered. We allowed 82-94 points against in 4 consecutive games (Xavier, DePaul, Providence, and Butler). Butler had lost 9 straight games before us, Providence 8/11. We were the get-right. It’s always something. Why we’re 6-13, 1-7. Our total efficiency ratings have dropped like a stone throughout the season across the board regardless of opponent which is probably the absolute best indicator of our level of play.

It’s deeper than only opponent quality and injuries too. We’ve watched this all season. This team has some fundamental issues. It’s a bad job by everyone involved and I hope it’s a one time deal.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

I’m sure we can make arguments everywhere game-to-game and I also think some - small # - of the individuals have made progress, but overall the team has been getting worse by every objective measure. We lose to good teams and lose to bad teams. All year long.

The offense looked improved, and the defense faltered. We allowed 82-94 points against in 4 consecutive games (Xavier, DePaul, Providence, and Butler). Butler had lost 9 straight games before us, Providence 8/11. We were the get-right. It’s always something. Why we’re 6-13, 1-7. Our total efficiency ratings have dropped like a stone throughout the season across the board regardless of opponent which is probably the absolute best indicator of our level of play.

It’s deeper than only opponent quality and injuries too. We’ve watched this all season. This team has some fundamental issues. It’s a bad job by everyone involved and I hope it’s a one time deal.

But once the OOC played itself out I wasn’t delusional that we were going to have some magical turnaround in the BE with what is on the court. People are still complaining like they expect differently.

I was just looking for some positives with the hopes that we could retain 2-3 players that could have an impact next year. This also goes out on a limb that we can find the money to pay them.

However, Coleman’s OOC vs conference splits are night and day. Middleton and Alibge have improved. Felton is getting some run and Gus brings energy and tends to be in the right sport on the floor. Godswill isn’t horrendous for what I was expecting for a player so raw.

I hate that people believe this was an unknown/ rebuilding year. There is no such thing as a rebuilding year anymore. But I play dumb and think that no one wants our damaged goods and maybe we can bring back the players mentioned above.

If we all we are going to do is complain that we suck and that none of the players we want can be retained…then just wake me up when the season is over. This is the reaction we are getting from the fans, exactly why no one showed up last night, and why they won’t show up for the rest of the year.

Also everyone needs to stop pretending that a reboot next year is going to change anything. It’s like a group 1 public school trying to compete with the parochial schools in NJ hoops. No chance…rinse and repeat, maybe one year you get lucky and 2-3 guys blow away expectations at the time and you have a punchers chance.

So if the die hards can’t try to find a glimmer of hope, then what’s even the point anymore. I am trying to grasp at whatever straw we can at this point. Deep down I am accepting the gloom and doom that our program is done for, in this current state of CBB.

Let me let everyone else in on another little secret, Sha being nice to a bunch of crappy basketball players in the future, doesn’t make them any less crappy. We need talent to start with and we need $$$ to get that talent.

 

[hallwins]

But once the OOC played itself out I wasn’t delusional that we were going to have some magical turnaround in the BE with what is on the court. People are still complaining like they expect differently.

I was just looking for some positives with the hopes that we could retain 2-3 players that could have an impact next year. This also goes out on a limb that we can find the money to pay them.

However, Coleman’s OOC vs conference splits are night and day. Middleton and Alibge have improved. Felton is getting some run and Gus brings energy and tends to be in the right sport on the floor. Godswill isn’t horrendous for what I was expecting for a player so raw.

I hate that people believe this was an unknown/ rebuilding year. There is no such thing as a rebuilding year anymore. But I play dumb and think that no one wants our damaged goods and maybe we can bring back the players mentioned above.

If we all we are going to do is complain that we suck and that none of the players we want can be retained…then just wake me up when the season is over. This is the reaction we are getting from the fans, exactly why no one showed up last night, and why they won’t show up for the rest of the year.

Also everyone needs to stop pretending that a reboot next year is going to change anything. It’s like a group 1 public school trying to compete with the parochial schools in NJ hoops. No chance…rinse and repeat, maybe one year you get lucky and 2-3 guys blow away expectations at the time and you have a punchers chance.

So if the die hards can’t try to find a glimmer of hope, then what’s even the point anymore. I am trying to grasp at whatever straw we can at this point. Deep down I am accepting the gloom and doom that our program is done for, in this current state of CBB.

Let me let everyone else in on another little secret, Sha being nice to a bunch of crappy basketball players in the future, doesn’t make them any less crappy. We need talent to start with and we need $$$ to get that talent.

Whether we have a little bit of money or alot, we have to spend it wisely. EHE would have helped this team this season, for example.