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Baseball’s Mount Rushmores

Halldan1

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Jan 1, 2003
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Would you change the fans vote?

Before Tuesday night’s All-Star Game in Cincinnati, Major League Baseball divulged the winners of each team’s “Franchise Four” ballot, as decided by an online vote.

The Yankees’ quartet was Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth.

No Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera.

The Mets’ foursome was Keith Hernandez, Mike Piazza, Tom Seaver and David Wright.

No Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry or Gary Carter.
 
I have no issue with the Yankees. With the Mets, I think it came down to whether Carter's five years were more of an impact than Wright's very successful career at 3B. Carter made the Expos/Nationals "Franchise Four," which is very appropriate.
 
I'm a Yankee fan but off the top of my head without checking stats....

Mike Piazza, Tom Seaver, Dwight Gooden & Gary Carter.
 
I'm a Yankee fan but off the top of my head without checking stats....

Mike Piazza, Tom Seaver, Dwight Gooden & Gary Carter.
I'm a Yankee fan as well but I don't see Wright ahead of Gooden, Strawberry or Carter.
 
I'm a Yankee fan as well but I don't see Wright ahead of Gooden, Strawberry or Carter.
Wright is seen as a good guy with no issues. Plus he probably got the young vote.

Carter (possible steroids/only played a few years with the Mets and Gooden/Strawberry (substance abuse) were penalized by some voters I'm sure.
 
These three icons were unfairly ignored in MLB honors

By Mike Vaccaro

July 15, 2015 | 11:30am

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Yogi Berra waves to fans at Yankee Stadium in 2013. Photo: AP

Look, in a lot of ways these are the best kind of sports arguments because they take place in the court of opinion in which there is no right answer and no wrong answer. These judgments are designed to be subjective and hot-blooded and emotional and parochial. All of it summarized nicely by an acronym of the day: IMO.

There is no place for cool, detached reason when putting together these debates. In fact, it’s all but foolhardy to even try. So let’s just say that for this sports fan, there were three local baseball figures who got short shrift in the festivities that highlighted the Cincinnati All-Star Game:

1) Yogi Berra

2a) Dwight Gooden

2b) Darryl Strawberry

Let’s start with the first: Baseball will never, ever admit this, but there was never, ever a chance that Yogi was going to be included in the list of greatest living ballplayers. For one thing, it’s unlikely he would have been physically able to take the field alongside Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Sandy Koufax if he’d been selected over Johnny Bench.

More importantly: The game was in Cincinnati.

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Former Reds catcher Johnny Bench was named one of the four greatest living baseball players.Photo: Getty Images

Pete Rose was a shoo-in to be included as one of the Reds’ Franchise Four, so that was certain to obscure the other three Reds who were introduced alongside him: Bench, Joe Morgan, Barry Larkin. And while Rose, as a local kid made good (and then bad), will always have that fierce loyalty on his side, many fans of the Big Red Machine Reds save their warmest feelings for Bench.

And, look, Bench was a fabulous player. He was probably the greatest defensive catcher of his time, a time when the Reds were on national TV more than any other team not based in New York City, meaning we could weekly marvel at his arm and his receiving skills and, for several years, his ability to mash the baseball.

But let’s turn the civic tables a little bit, shall we? Remember when Thurman Munson had his superb 1976 World Series, even as the Yankees were getting crushed by the Reds (and as Bench was having, essentially, his last offensive hurrah at age 28)?

When someone brought up Munson’s name after Game 4, Sparky Anderson famously dismissed the query thusly: “I don’t want to embarrass any other catcher by comparing him to Johnny Bench,” a slight that Munson took to his grave.

OK, then. Let’s do Bench a favor and not embarrass any other catcher by comparing him to Yogi Berra, who was a member of 10 World Series winners, who is acknowledged, almost universally, as either the fifth- or sixth-greatest Yankee of all time (depending on where you put Mariano Rivera), meaning he was also (rightfully) excluded from the impenetrable Ruth-Gehrig-DiMaggio-Mantle Yankees franchise four.

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Darryl StrawberryPhoto: Karen Levy/ALLSPORT

Bench was great. He was an all-time great. He wasn’t as good as Yogi as a two-way player, and he wasn’t great for nearly as long as Yogi was. You would have a terrific team no matter which man you have behind the plate. And in Cincinnati, this opinion will be burned in an ash heap. Sorry. I’ll go with Yogi. IMO.

Now, as for the Mets …

It’s a testament to a lot of different things that there is really only one Met who qualifies as a no-brainer for inclusion on the Franchise Four, and it’s not a coincidence his nickname for much of his career explains why: Tom Seaver was “The Franchise” for the franchise. Even if some of his best moments were foolishly handed away to the Reds (his only no-hitter) and the White Sox (his 300th win), he remains so.

The others on the list — Mike Piazza, Keith Hernandez, David Wright — aren’t nearly as interesting as the two primaries (all due respect to Jerry Koosman and Gary Carter) who didn’t make it — Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry.

For better or worse, Gooden and Strawberry are destined to be more lamented for the greatness they didn’t achieve than lauded for that which they did. Hey, it’s a fan vote, and fans have feelings, and fans have resentments, and all of that goes into the chemistry of being a fan. And all of it is fair game when casting a vote for something like this.

But let’s be perfectly frank about one thing:

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Dwight GoodenPhoto: AP

Dwight Gooden is — period — the second-best Met of all time. Yes, he should have been even greater, but his first eight years as a Met — 1984 through 1991 — read like a typo: 132-53, 2.91 ERA, 21 shutouts, 1,541 strikeouts. And they certainly compare favorably to Seaver’s first eight years (146-87, 2.47, 29, 1,856). So that means someone has to leave the list.

But what of Strawberry? He is another who suffers by comparison to what we wanted him to be. And yet what he was as a Met is staggering; you could argue Wright’s best year as a Met (probably 2008) would qualify as Strawberry’s fifth-best, depending on how you view advanced stats.

Hernandez always will have a visceral tie to Mets fans. He was the one who turned a joke operation into a contender, by himself at the start. It probably explains why Mets fans invested so much in Matt Harvey, because in many spiritual ways he channeled Hernandez’s mindset. From day one in 1983, Hernandez demanded his teammates care as much as he did, a quality Harvey showed up with in 2012 at a time when that was in rare supply in the Mets clubhouse.

Piazza? He had four years (1999-2002) that are virtually unmatched anywhere else in Mets everyday player history. But there is still a nagging truth that his very best days happened 3,000 miles away, in Los Angeles.

Me? I think Seaver and Gooden are shoo-ins. I totally buy into what Hernandez means as a historical element, so he’s number three. And, not meaning to pile on the injured captain, but the fourth slot is a 50-50 proposition for me between Piazza and Strawberry. In the end, I pick Piazza, but I’m willing to be very wrong about that, too.

IMO, of course.
 
Leaving off Gooden is insane. Seaver, Gooden, Piazza and Hernandez works for me. Yanks four is a no brainer
 
My suggestion:

Yankees: Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle, Berra, Rivera

Mets: Seaver, Piazza


See, the easy solution is just to give the Yanks more slots and take some away from the Mets. It makes sense because the Yanks now have three times as many slots as the Mets, and the Yanks are at least three times the franchise the Mets will ever hope to be.

I'm sure we can all agree on this.
 
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David Wright? Wow, that's really scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of choosing an all-time great. Gooden should have gotten in over Wright.
 
Hey batts, a new book is coming out, by Henry Hill, that will give some info on your demise. Seems like John Gotti was the trigger for the Joe Pesci character...some interesting stuff.
 
75, there's a good BBC documentary about Henry Hill. It's on Youtube and pretty easy to find using a basic search. The present day consensus is that the real life Billy Batts was a made man in John Gotti's crew and a personal friend of Gotti's. The real villain was the DeNiro character (Jimmy Conway / Burke). He wanted Batts dead because Jimmy had taken over Batts loan sharking territory while Batts was in prison, and Jimmy didn't want to give it back to Batts when he was released.
 
No problem with the Yankees "Franchise Four".

I think they could've done something better than the "Greatest Living Four" and still gotten that awesome blast of baseball history that MLB should incorporate in every ASG.
 
75, there's a good BBC documentary about Henry Hill. It's on Youtube and pretty easy to find using a basic search. The present day consensus is that the real life Billy Batts was a made man in John Gotti's crew and a personal friend of Gotti's. The real villain was the DeNiro character (Jimmy Conway / Burke). He wanted Batts dead because Jimmy had taken over Batts loan sharking territory while Batts was in prison, and Jimmy didn't want to give it back to Batts when he was released.
As I remember the article, it agrees with your recounting. And Jimmy and Tommy killed another of Gottis men too. No shoeshine...lol. The book s about the Luftansa caper.
 
Yankee fan here. The Yankees four is correct. No doubt

But the Mets having David Wright is Ridiculous. Kooseman, Sid Fernandez, Darling, Mookie, Howard Johnson and Rusty Staub are all more worthy.

Seaver and Gooden are solid number 1 and 2. The remaining two are up for grabs between Stawberry, Piazza, Hernandez. For me, I would pick Strawberry and Piazza.

I don't think Carter is even in the discussion.
 
Wright's numbers are actually really good. I think he had a chance to be the greatest Met of all time before he got hit in the head by Matt Cain. He just never seemed to be the same at the plate after that happened. Now he just can't stay on the field.
 
I view Wright as a really good player, but not an all-time great. In his prime, Gooden was a dominant pitcher. He also had a 3 year period, when he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball. Gooden's off the field problems caused him not to make the cut.
 
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