Campus, Space and Mangement

[400SOAVE]

I'm posting this thread here even though it impacts athletics.

I saw this article in today's Record:

http://www.northjersey.com/towns/a-sanctuary-for-14-5-million-1.1396984

The Carmelites are selling a 34 acre property in Mahwah.

The article mentions several other large church-owned properties that have been sold over the decades, including the 435 acre property where the seminary used to be located.

While all these properties were sold, Seton Hall was also doing some selling of land instead of growing with an eye towards the future. The result is the situation that exists today.

Meanwhile, I was on the campus of FDU Madison and was stunned by it's size, beauty and history.

The school was founded in 1942 and did not become a four year institution until 1948. Ten years later they bought the 178 acre Vanderbilt estate which includes a 100 room mansion. Its grounds resemble a mini-Versailles.

They have another campus in NJ. They also have campuses in Canada and England, which I'm not sure if they own.

It has all made me wonder whether Seton Hall has been grossly mismanaged over the decades, or whether FDU has simply had better and more aggressive administrators... or, perhaps, both.

 

[400SOAVE]

And has SHU ever gone after any of those church properties, other than the small Marylawn school in South Orange?

 

[400SOAVE]

One more point, my comment has nothing to do with quality of education.

I love our campus. It's small, but it's beautiful. The problem, as is openly stated, the school long-ago outgrew the existing space and more land is needed.

 

[shupat08]

Don't be fooled by the facade... I have some insider info on FDU, their inner workings and some insight into their finances and fundraising abilities over the past handful of years.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Many of what alumni consider mistakes at Seton Hall, and I am one, are relatable to Newark. We may have a Board of Regents which by the way is ladened with clergy, but control is filtered on down from Newark.

 

[SnakeTom]

[QUOTE="400SOAVE, post: 91701, member:
It has all made me wonder whether Seton Hall has been grossly mismanaged over the decades, or whether FDU has simply had better and more aggressive administrators... or, perhaps, both.[/QUOTE]

Mismanagement is the operative word.

TK

 

[Old_alum]

I'm posting this thread here even though it impacts athletics.

I saw this article in today's Record:

http://www.northjersey.com/towns/a-sanctuary-for-14-5-million-1.1396984

The Carmelites are selling a 34 acre property in Mahwah.

The article mentions several other large church-owned properties that have been sold over the decades, including the 435 acre property where the seminary used to be located.

While all these properties were sold, Seton Hall was also doing some selling of land instead of growing with an eye towards the future. The result is the situation that exists today.

Meanwhile, I was on the campus of FDU Madison and was stunned by it's size, beauty and history.

The school was founded in 1942 and did not become a four year institution until 1948. Ten years later they bought the 178 acre Vanderbilt estate which includes a 100 room mansion. Its grounds resemble a mini-Versailles.

They have another campus in NJ. They also have campuses in Canada and England, which I'm not sure if they own.

It has all made me wonder whether Seton Hall has been grossly mismanaged over the decades, or whether FDU has simply had better and more aggressive administrators... or, perhaps, both.

In the mid-1960s a decision was made to relocate SHU to Saddle River, NJ, just off of Route 17. The land was purchased. The Prep was to take over the South Orange campus.

Then the Diocese decided specifically that to move the University would indicate a lack of support for the Archdiocese in general and for Newark in particular. ("White flight" was used by some observers).

So the Prep moved, instead. In the mid 1970s the Saddle River land was sold to a developer for 6-8K sq ft houses, which can be seen today.

When the Darlington Seminary was closed I had hoped that they would reconsider because it was a perfect setting for a college.

Alas! It was not to come to pass. Sigh!

IMHO this is not "mismanagement" per se but a difference in priorities of Diocesean objectives.

Alas, I would agree that the community's reaction is important, but IMHO the presence of a good high school close to Newark would probably have been more highly valued than that of a college.

If wishes were horses.....

 

[400SOAVE]

Even if they would have kept half the seminary property, SHU would have quadrupled in physical size. Imagine what SHU would be right now with 200-plus acres and no South Orange obstruction.

I had never heard that Saddle River story. It's so frustrating to read that.

I think that may be what happens when there's new leadership in Newark every few years. They may not care about the long-term needs of local institutions. They come in with an agenda and/or a mandate that's not necessarily good for SHU.

It's too bad that the members of the Board of Trustees and the Board of Regents did not revolt and go crazy when those decisions were made. Sometimes you have to get into a "fistfight" to stand for what's right.

 

[Old_alum]

Even if they would have kept half the seminary property, SHU would have quadrupled in physical size. Imagine what SHU would be right now with 200-plus acres and no South Orange obstruction.

I had never heard that Saddle River story. It's so frustrating to read that.

I think that may be what happens when there's new leadership in Newark every few years. They may not care about the long-term needs of local institutions. They come in with an agenda and/or a mandate that's not necessarily good for SHU.

It's too bad that the members of the Board of Trustees and the Board of Regents did not revolt and go crazy when those decisions were made. Sometimes you have to get into a "fistfight" to stand for what's right.

The late 1960s were emotionally charged in many ways (civil rights, Nam, student revolts, dope, the pill, etc.) and the Regents' psyche was probably still more 1930-40s than '60s-70s, IMHO.

I am not sure "fistfight" as a term that would have gone over well.
I would not be quick to attribute the decisions as much to "new leadership in Newark every few years" but perhaps to incongruent objectives. The BOR --- like the board of directors of virtually every public company with which I have dealt ---- does not strike me as the type to "revolt" (even today).

IMHO the BOR does "care about the long-term needs of (our) local institution"! They care VERY much. I have seen no evidence at all that anyone has "come in with an agenda and/or a mandate". Can you share your reasons for your statement that they do.

I believe they do "stand for what's right" but it's not just "what's right" for SHU as a stand-alone. For better or worse, SHU is and has been part of a larger mission for 150 years.

 

[400SOAVE]

Old_alum, I'm not talking about people who are there today. They seem to be doing an excellent job. A lot of great improvements have occurred in the last decade. Hopefully, there are more to come.

I'm talking about unfortunate decisions made decades ago. Even in the 1980's they sold Mahwah. It's still painful to think about today.

And I didn't mean a literal fistfight. I just mean that too many people worry about being nice. When something bad is happening, you have to speak up- sometimes, if necessary, forcefully. When you do speak up, you have to follow it up with action.

When I read that SHU owned the land where the Ivy Hill Apartments now stand, I wish somebody would have turned over a table and threatened to call a press conference. I wish somebody would have stood up.

 

[400SOAVE]

I'm trying to find the local article written by SHU students, but the property was bought and sold THREE TIMES!

 

[Old_alum]

Old_alum, I'm not talking about people who are there today. They seem to be doing an excellent job. A lot of great improvements have occurred in the last decade. Hopefully, there are more to come.

I'm talking about unfortunate decisions made decades ago. Even in the 1980's they sold Mahwah. It's still painful to think about today.

And I didn't mean a literal fistfight. I just mean that too many people worry about being nice. When something bad is happening, you have to speak up- sometimes, if necessary, forcefully. When you do speak up, you have to follow it up with action.

When I read that SHU owned the land where the Ivy Hill Apartments now stand, I wish somebody would have turned over a table and threatened to call a press conference. I wish somebody would have stood up.

I did understand that "fistfight" was a metaphor.

While I admire your passion and I agree that it is almost always necessary to be "firm" to get others to do almost anything, it is my experience that --- with the possible exception of a brief "call-to-attention" --- being "forceful", per se, seems to work far less well and with fewer positive results than having empathy (for the "customer's" position & priorities) and sticktoitiveness or commitment to wear them down (not beat them up).

Even Spring 2015 is now spilled-milk that is not worth crying over (another year deferred for MBB), so the '90s, '80s, and '60s are all sadly "what might have been". SHU has invested heavily in its physical plant. The student body is now mostly dorm students, I think. Bergen County would have been a very long commute from the vast-majority who were day-hops in the 60s (then we had one "travel-sized" Boland Hall and the second floor of a long-gone 1920s building named McQuaid Hall). Alas, there's no going back, so let's move on to what we can be.

 

[400SOAVE]

Old-alum, I think we actually agree.

Every situation is different. There's no single way to react. We have to use sober judgement.

Interestingly, I just noticed that some students are Tweeting today that SHU is sending some freshmen to dorms at Rutgers Newark. There's no more room in SO.

Let's be glad they bought those two buildings in SO and expanded Xavier. I'm sure they're actively looking for solutions, i.e another dorm expansion and/or another building they can convert into a dorm.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Many of what alumni consider mistakes at Seton Hall, and I am one, are relatable to Newark. We may have a Board of Regents which by the way is ladened with clergy, but control is filtered on down from Newark.

They are in a decided minority. Hardly "laden." Would you have the Church removed from all administrative/academic control at Seton Hall?

 

[Old_alum]

Old-alum, I think we actually agree.

Hallelujah!!! See, 400SOAve, miracles can happen!

 

[SnakeTom]

Back in the early to mid 1960's about 85-90% of the student body were commuters. While it would have been good to have the foresight to seek out a bigger campus at that time it would not have been very practical as many of our students then came from the population centers of Newark, Jersey City, Paterson or Elizabeth. At that time and place proximity was a big part in choosing a school and for those of us who took public transportation to South Orange commuting to Bergen County was not a possibility.

In the 1980's however a commitment was made to stay in South Orange and major construction projects were started to expand the dorms etc. This probably was not very foresighted because at this time it became obvious that the South Orange campus was just not big enough while the amount of on campus students were rising while the percentage of commuters dropped. There was a proposal at one time to find a new undergraduate campus while making So Orange the Graduate and Law Schools campus. Unfortunately that never got far enough off the ground.

Tom K.

 

[400SOAVE]

Speaking about building and expansion, it's been a long time since anything was said about the new student center.

And I imagine they've hired a medical school dean, but they have not made an announcement?

What's going on? Any info or timetables that can be discussed?

 

[Pirate6711]

Speaking about building and expansion, it's been a long time since anything was said about the new student center.

And I imagine they've hired a medical school dean, but they have not made an announcement?

What's going on? Any info or timetables that can be discussed?

The student center project is a very complicated one and it's progressing. A lot has to be done with funding, logistics, permits, design, and construction. With any change to any of those, changes would be made to the cost of the project. Don't expect anything else to be announced until it's ready to go. The last thing the school would want is to release finalized plans and then have to abandon or drastically change the project. Like I said, I've been told it's progressing, but it's viewed as the most important new construction project since the dorms were added in the 80s (which it is).

 

[400SOAVE]

Thanks for the update, 6711. I'm glad it's progressing, albeit slowly.

If they manage to move the nursing school and the graduate medical programs to the medical school site, that will also have a major positive impact by moving what I'm guessing is at least 1,000 students, faculty and staff out of South Orange.

Furthermore, during the SO hearing for Marymount, SHU's reps made it clear that they could have a larger enrollment but they don't have the space.

That, of course, means that they will need more dorms at the medical school, and regularly scheduled shuttles to SO. I'm assuming there will be on-campus housing (in Nutley-Clifton) for medical students.

These are fun "problems" to deal with.

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Currently SHU and HUMC only own part of the Hoffman LaRoche property that which is needed for the new medical school with HUNC fronting most of the front money.