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Can I Say I Told You So?

Originally posted by donnie_baseball:

Originally posted by Merge:



Originally posted by donnie_baseball:

Merge mentions incentivizing people to not use the system by raising copays. In theory, that should be true, and for reasonable people like you and I, absolutely. Having been in the business for 15 years now, I can tell you that it's not reality.
Obviously I don't know what you have seen in your career but I have ready several studies that suggest otherwise.

Copays go up - Usage goes down. That was even the point of the article posted.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1398

http://www.cfah.org/hbns/2012/even-small-increases-in-copays-affect-use-of-childrens-healthcare

http://www.namcp.org/journals/jmcm/articles/13-1/copayment.pdf

If you are concerned with price, you should love the trends of copays and deductibles.
None of those studies are 15 years, longitudinal, and ongoing, so yeah, I'm going to go with what I know.
I don't have time to read all the studies, but ALL economic theory would support that when the price gores up the quantity demanded goes down---only a matter of how much, how elastic.

Donnie's experience is in free clinics, no? Are there co-pays there??
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:

Tell that to my in-laws!

I don't care what you call them, under ACA physicians are discouraged from providing expensive care to citizens of a certain age.
I wouldn't care what you called it either if it existed.

If you don't believe me, find the language in the bill that would allow the government to make end of life decisions. It really is just not there. You think if that existed, it wouldn't have been plastered on every conservative website?

Your in laws would have been told the same thing prior to the ACA becoming law.
 
As much as the ACA is a piece of trash, the death squad rhetoric is a joke. Doesn't exist. Actually one of the reasons why our healthcare costs are so high. Insurance for instance does typically cover second and third line therapies for cancer. One of my pet peeves with medicine today is there is no discussion about whether a senior is a good surgical candidate. When my dad was mid stage Alzeimers he was diagnosed with an aortic aneurism. The procedure for someone of his age and condition was 50/50 at best. A major surgery would likely have a accelerated his condition but the doctor kept insisting on the procedure. We opted for him not to and he ended up living another four years before succumbing to Alzheimer's. Going through a similar situation with an in-law who had open heart surgery and was also not a good surgical candidate (was never committed to doing the rehab) and she's struggled for two years. No counseling in either case. The system is designed to prey on a family during very emotional times to save a life at all and any cost. I think you need to weigh the positives and negatives of some of these procedures/treatments against the actual quality of life factors as well....it's painfully missing in our healthcare system.
This post was edited on 10/30 4:56 PM by HALL85
 
Originally posted by Section112:
My bro in law is a Gastrointerologist and he has lots of patients that are now foregoing their colonoscopies because of their higher deductibles in paying for both the procedure and the hospital.
Rich people deserve better healthcare.
 
Originally posted by Seton75:

Originally posted by Section112:
My bro in law is a Gastrointerologist and he has lots of patients that are now foregoing their colonoscopies because of their higher deductibles in paying for both the procedure and the hospital.
Rich people deserve better healthcare.
Not sure I understand your comment? His comment is not directed towards rich people either. His practice is in Essex County and he serves folks from Bloomfield to Belleville and Newark and Nutley and does lots of pro-bono work for the poor. Hardly rich people. What he is saying is that because of the significant rise of hihg deductible insurance, (the deductibles and copays etc.) fewer folks can afford the out of pocket costs related to procedures that they need and as a result are not going through with them and are further at risk.

As an aside - one of the growing areas for community bank lending is in medical lending to pay for procedures people cannot afford. Now admittedly some of those procedures are to improve your looks or breast size or your teeth. But many dentists and doctors all carry brochures in their offices now for surgical/medical related loans and that is a growing area that banks/finance companies are getting involved in. You don't have to be a genius to draw the parallel that HC is continuing to get more expensive and now folks are taking more loans to pay for it (excluding the elective surgeries of course).
 
I think the correct statement is that rich people have always had access to the best medical care and will continue to have access to the best medical care. The ACA didn't change that; but in fact will create a rationing system where many less fortunate (even with insurance) will have to wait longer and pay more for care.

Here's how it works as I see it. The ACA, a government created mandate, created confusion in the marketplace. For-profit companies, which usually have the better and brighter people have figured out how to capitalize on the confusion before the government has it's monitoring system in place. The consumer will ultimately as always via higher prices, added layers of government adminisitration (see taxes) and opportunities for new fraud. Kind of ironic that the for-profit companies (insurer, medical device, for-profit hospital chains, etc.) that BO tried to punish have all had excellent earnings and stock price increases in the past 2-3 years.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:


I think the correct statement is that rich people have always had access to the best medical care and will continue to have access to the best medical care.
There is something so fundamentally wrong about that. IMO, that's the real healthcare reform we desperately need.
 
Originally posted by shu09:
Originally posted by HALL85:


I think the correct statement is that rich people have always had access to the best medical care and will continue to have access to the best medical care.
There is something so fundamentally wrong about that. IMO, that's the real healthcare reform we desperately need.
Why? If you have the ability to go to the Mayo Clinic for treatment because you can afford to why is that wrong? The public should have access to adequate medical care but why should you have unlimited options if you don't have the means.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:


Originally posted by shu09:

Originally posted by HALL85:



I think the correct statement is that rich people have always had access to the best medical care and will continue to have access to the best medical care.
There is something so fundamentally wrong about that. IMO, that's the real healthcare reform we desperately need.
Why? If you have the ability to go to the Mayo Clinic for treatment because you can afford to why is that wrong? The public should have access to adequate medical care but why should you have unlimited options if you don't have the means.
Because you're a human being and deserve the dignity of being treated in the best possible way. Why is that so hard for people to understand, especially in a country with the wealth and resources we enjoy?
 
What you're suggesting is utopian. First of all the resources to do that (docs, facilities, meds, devices, etc) don't exist and second, even if we had them, it would bankrupt the country in about two weeks. That's why it's so hard to take it seriously.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:


Originally posted by shu09:



Nothing is impossible.
Enjoy your fantasy.
You enjoy being the typical greedy, cold-hearted American healthcare executive.
This post was edited on 11/1 8:51 PM by shu09
 
You realize I run a non-profit....if you really read my posts you would note that one of my issues with the ACA is that it will force rationing of care for those that have less means, but I guess you choose to ignore that.

This post was edited on 11/2 7:09 AM by HALL85
 
Originally posted by shu09:

Originally posted by HALL85:


Originally posted by shu09:



Nothing is impossible.
Enjoy your fantasy.
You enjoy being the typical greedy, cold-hearted American healthcare executive.

This post was edited on 11/1 8:51 PM by shu09
Alas, that is the ubiquitous chasm between liberals and conservatives. Liberals focus on what would be ideal (heavenly) and they ignore its reality. Conservatives at least try to focus on the historically consistent patterns of societal success tied to personal incentives and market efficiencies. It goes back to Plato ('liberal', with his philosopher-kings who knew better than anyone, and his utopian placebos) versus Aristotle ('conservative', who would let the merchant class drive decisions (via the market) because -- although perhaps not as smart --- they have the better information about societal needs --- the market --- and a better understanding of scarce resources).

09, why stop at the best healthcare for everyone? Why not give everyone the best shelter? And the best diet?

As 85 asked: how do you propose to pay for all of that? How can you --- or any adult --- justify say saying that 'nothing is impossible'?

As 85 asked: where would the 'best' doctors come from? How many 'best' are there? If the 'best doctors' could physical treat, say, 30 million people per year, HOW would you ration their services among 300 million Americans? Or among billion worldwide? A lottery?

If your employer paid everyone the same salary, no matter how long, how hard, how effectively and/or how amicably they work, what would happen to your company?

Forget the 'minimum wage', should all workers be paid the same wage? If not, then how would you ration payrolls?

Do you have kids? Do you (or would you) give them everything they ask for? Everything the richest kid in school has? Or do you (would you) try to instill discipline and caritas early-on?

IMO these are not rhetorical questions?

IMHO neither the aspersion 'greedy' nor that of 'cold-hearted' can be remotely justified based on what has been written here?

What sink to such an ad hominem tactic?
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:
Alas, that is the ubiquitous chasm between liberals and conservatives. Liberals focus on what would be ideal (heavenly) and they ignore its reality. Conservatives at least try to focus on the historically consistent patterns of societal success tied to personal incentives and market efficiencies.
I don't really think that is an accurate characterization. Focusing on what would be ideal gives us something to strive for.
Being liberal doesn't define someone as ignorantly Utopian.
 
Originally posted by shu09:

Originally posted by HALL85:


Originally posted by shu09:



Nothing is impossible.
Enjoy your fantasy.
You enjoy being the typical greedy, cold-hearted American healthcare executive.

This post was edited on 11/1 8:51 PM by shu09
LOL! Even if he was, and I'm certain Hall85 is not, he probably would have earned it, as have all the people who deliver healthcare, having invested monetarily, but more imporantly with years of their lives. You don't know jack-sh-t about healthcare, or the ACA, you just think that everyone should get the best of care for free, and the "greedy" people who work in the field should all donate their services. After you, Karl Marx.
 
Regardless of who is right, the healthcare in the US is subpar compared to so much of the world. Ho wany other developed countries do not have govt healthcare? And we are unhealthier than ever before. The markets have won the bellies of Americans, and it is killing us.
 
Originally posted by donnie_baseball:

Originally posted by shu09:


Originally posted by HALL85:



Originally posted by shu09:




Nothing is impossible.
Enjoy your fantasy.
You enjoy being the typical greedy, cold-hearted American healthcare executive.


This post was edited on 11/1 8:51 PM by shu09
LOL! Even if he was, and I'm certain Hall85 is not, he probably would have earned it, as have all the people who deliver healthcare, having invested monetarily, but more imporantly with years of their lives. You don't know jack-sh-t about healthcare, or the ACA, you just think that everyone should get the best of care for free, and the "greedy" people who work in the field should all donate their services. After you, Karl Marx.
I see you're back to the old angry, condescending donnie_baseball that we all knew around here for years. Your moderation was fun while it lasted.
 
Originally posted by Seton75:

Regardless of who is right, the healthcare in the US is subpar compared to so much of the world. Ho wany other developed countries do not have govt healthcare? And we are unhealthier than ever before. The markets have won the bellies of Americans, and it is killing us.


One of the biggest fallacies or misconceptions is that there is a relationship between government run healthcare and mortality rates. It's like saying teams with a blue uniform are more likely to win the Super Bowl.

The heatlh and mortality rates in this country are poor considering our wealth, but the drivers are primarily lifestyle and self-inflicted. There are mountains of statistics that back that up.

Once again, the ACA does not address the core drivers of cost and outcomes. Healthcare in this country has always been subsidized, but urgent care has never been denied.
 
Originally posted by shu09:

Originally posted by donnie_baseball:


Originally posted by shu09:



Originally posted by HALL85:




Originally posted by shu09:





Nothing is impossible.
Enjoy your fantasy.
You enjoy being the typical greedy, cold-hearted American healthcare executive.



This post was edited on 11/1 8:51 PM by shu09
LOL! Even if he was, and I'm certain Hall85 is not, he probably would have earned it, as have all the people who deliver healthcare, having invested monetarily, but more imporantly with years of their lives. You don't know jack-sh-t about healthcare, or the ACA, you just think that everyone should get the best of care for free, and the "greedy" people who work in the field should all donate their services. After you, Karl Marx.
I see you're back to the old angry, condescending donnie_baseball that we all knew around here for years. Your moderation was fun while it lasted.
Not angry in the least, I just don't suffer fools gladly.

What field do you work in? You're five years out of SHU now, right? Why don't you donate your services to those less fortunate? How much do you drop in the basket on Sunday? It's easy to call anyone who earns their living "greedy," but I suspect that you look forward to your paycheck in it's entirety every two weeks, like the rest of us.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:
The heatlh and mortality rates in this country are poor considering our wealth, but the drivers are primarily lifestyle and self-inflicted. There are mountains of statistics that back that up.

Once again, the ACA does not address the core drivers of cost and outcomes. Healthcare in this country has always been subsidized, but urgent care has never been denied.
I agree. We have excellent care in the US. The reason we do not fair well compared to other countries is definitely lifestyle driven.

I do feel that some cost drivers are being addressed though.

For example, one of the main drivers of cost is that patients are not participating in the cost decisions. Back to the main focus of this thread, I am not sure why the conservatives on this board are not happy with the trend of increasing copays and deductibles. Increasing the cost sharing and making patients more aware of what they are spending for healthcare will reduce consumption of care and ideally would start to lead towards healthier lifestyle choices. Getting treated for problems related to a poor diet used to cost maybe a couple hundred dollars a year in doctor's visits and prescriptions... As that starts to turn into over 1k per year, maybe that will be enough of an incentive for our population?

We are placing incentives to improve the quality of care and reduce readmissions. I audit two hospitals. Both had a decline in readmissions which appears to be a trend nationally.
http://blog.cms.gov/2013/12/06/new-data-shows-affordable-care-act-reforms-are-leading-to-lower-hospital-readmission-rates-for-medicare-beneficiaries/

We are also moving away from fee for service which will promote more effective care.

Meaningful use requirements are designed to increase efficiencies and improve quality of care.

As I have said in the other threads discussion the ACA, it is going to take many years to evaluate the efficacy of the program... The increase in cost sharing wasn't really a part of the ACA itself but I wonder if it was discussed behind closed doors with the insurers.
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by HALL85:

The heatlh and mortality rates in this country are poor considering our wealth, but the drivers are primarily lifestyle and self-inflicted. There are mountains of statistics that back that up.

Once again, the ACA does not address the core drivers of cost and outcomes. Healthcare in this country has always been subsidized, but urgent care has never been denied.
For example, one of the main drivers of cost is that patients are not participating in the cost decisions. Back to the main focus of this thread, I am not sure why the conservatives on this board are not happy with the trend of increasing copays and deductibles. Increasing the cost sharing and making patients more aware of what they are spending for healthcare will reduce consumption of care and ideally would start to lead towards healthier lifestyle choices. Getting treated for problems related to a poor diet used to cost maybe a couple hundred dollars a year in doctor's visits and prescriptions... As that starts to turn into over 1k per year, maybe that will be enough of an incentive for our population?
Merge, in theory, yes. But the end result to the paying consumer is a dramatic increase in their healthcare spending. If the cost to the consumer shifted from premium to copay/deductible/out-of-pocket that would have been the right strategy. Unfortunately the consumer is paying more because everything has gone up including the premium. Remember that line: "If you like you're healthcare plan you can keep it". Maybe you can, but at a much higher price. The middle-class is getting hit the hardest by this. Healthcare is a market that screams for cost-transparency...that would drive more competition and lower prices, more than increasing co-pays.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:

Merge, in theory, yes. But the end result to the paying consumer is a dramatic increase in their healthcare spending. If the cost to the consumer shifted from premium to copay/deductible/out-of-pocket that would have been the right strategy. Unfortunately the consumer is paying more because everything has gone up including the premium. Remember that line: "If you like you're healthcare plan you can keep it". Maybe you can, but at a much higher price. The middle-class is getting hit the hardest by this. Healthcare is a market that screams for cost-transparency...that would drive more competition and lower prices, more than increasing co-pays.
I understand it is a dramatic increase in personal healthcare spending. That is my point though. The consumer paying more will increase the demand/need for cost transparency, it will deduce the amount of care utilized. Ultimately yes, the consumer will be paying more... but we need to pay more and it needs to be dramatic if we need some kind of incentive to stay healthy.

We are not going to see a decrease in premiums until we start taking care of ourselves and pay attention to how much medical care we are using.

My assumption is that these changes along with baby boomers shifting their costs into Medicare, we will see a decrease in premiums within the next several years.
 
Merge, not to sound trite, but at the end of the day, but what you're implying is having the consumer pay more for healthcare was the ACA's answer for improving healthcare. Wasn't it supposed to be about lowering costs, insurance reform, punishing big business, etc? As I said in an earlier post, the consumer is ultimately bearing the cost of ACA and the poor are moving further back on the line for access. That to me is the sad reality.
 
Originally posted by HALL85:

Merge, not to sound trite, but at the end of the day, but what you're implying is having the consumer pay more for healthcare was the ACA's answer for improving healthcare. Wasn't it supposed to be about lowering costs, insurance reform, punishing big business, etc? As I said in an earlier post, the consumer is ultimately bearing the cost of ACA and the poor are moving further back on the line for access. That to me is the sad reality.
That is not what I am implying. The ACA improved care primarily through ensuring the people have the ability to gain coverage without having to worry about preexisting conditions or being denied coverage when they get sick

I have always though healthcare was too cheap. I remember when I was 19 on my parents plan with a $5 copay for everything thinking what a dumb idea that is for the insurance company and that I would just use as much as I could.

People need to think of their bodies the way they think of their cars. I am very careful with my car because I have a $750 deductible. If my deductible was $5, I would drive around like an idiot. I think that is what has been happening with our healthcare. Everything is so cheap that a life with doctor visits and lipitor seems like a reasonable penalty for eating poorly and never exercising... or annual skin cancer screenings/ biopsies as the penalty for using a tanning salon... etc... I do feel feel bad for people with a disease or illness that was no fault of their own, and my wife having an autoimmune disease is among that group but something needed to be done. We also had our second child a few weeks ago so we will hit our out of pocket max this year while our insurance for our first child covered everything. I am not thrilled but I understand it.

We use too much medical care as a country, I think we all can agree on that... so how do we stop over utilization without something drastic?

There were many sad realities before and after the ACA... in my opinion increasing the cost sharing for consumers was a necessary evil.
 
Originally posted by Merge:
....The ACA improved care primarily through ensuring the people have the ability to gain coverage without having to worry about preexisting conditions or being denied coverage when they get sick

I have always though healthcare was too cheap. I remember when I was 19 on my parents plan with a $5 copay for everything thinking what a dumb idea that is for the insurance company and that I would just use as much as I could.

People need to think of their bodies the way they think of their cars. ....

We use too much medical care as a country, I think we all can agree on that... so how do we stop over utilization without something drastic?

There were many sad realities before and after the ACA... in my opinion increasing the cost sharing for consumers was a necessary evil.
I am a conservative and my last post strongly supported higher copays and deductibles----which are your primary points ----- and I suggested a super fund for all insurance companies to build to share the cost of extreme illness---your latest point.

The problem is that the government has always been the least effective and least efficient 'solution' to any problem not addressed by Alexander Hamilton.

The liberal philosophy is to get a group of folks which IT believes to be experts (i.e. their philosopher kings), to let that group specify exactly what & when EVERYONE must do, to build a huge bureaucracy to 'control' that everyone does follows its dictums, and then to charge OPM ("other people's money") to pay for it.

It has proven to be almost always wrong-headed and wasteful.

I am all for the government laying out reasonable taxes and/or regulations as guidelines, but NO ONE GROUP is prescient enough to decide in advance what should or even could be done.






This post was edited on 11/4 2:06 PM by Old_alum
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by Old_alum:
Alas, that is the ubiquitous chasm between liberals and conservatives. Liberals focus on what would be ideal (heavenly) and they ignore its reality. Conservatives at least try to focus on the historically consistent patterns of societal success tied to personal incentives and market efficiencies.
I don't really think that is an accurate characterization. Focusing on what would be ideal gives us something to strive for.
Being liberal doesn't define someone as ignorantly Utopian.
Never say never!

All generalizations are wrong!

But hyperbole is an integral part of rhetoric, no?

FWIW IMHO most if not all conservatives believe that ''Focusing on what would be ideal gives us something to strive for.'' They just add an element of practicality in the recipe for the ideal.

While ''Being liberal doesn't define someone as ignorantly Utopian'' per se, in my experience that characterization usually implies a lot more of both "ignorance" and "Utopian" plans than does the alternative.

Lest one believe the use of ''ignorance'' is too strong a word for the general group, it has been my experience that Democratic regulators usually avoid if not prohibit the use of true industry experts when drafting regulations which almost always prove to be misguided and inefficient. Prime example: Jimmy Carter's energy laws which virtually caused the second oil crisis in 1979, as well as billions of dollars misspent in bad but government subsidized investments which soon become nothing more than environmental albatrosses.
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:

The problem is that the government has always been the least effective and least efficient 'solution' to any problem not addressed by Alexander Hamilton.

The liberal philosophy is to get a group of folks which IT believes to be experts (i.e. their philosopher kings), to let that group specify exactly what & when EVERYONE must do, to build a huge bureaucracy to 'control' that everyone does follows its dictums, and then to charge OPM ("other people's money") to pay for it.
If we implemented single payer, that would make more sense. The government didn't step in and solve the problem. They stepped in to ensure insurance coverage was available. There are a lot of regulations included but this was a very complex problem that politicians have been debating over for decades while they watched insurance companies deny coverages to their policy holders and even drop coverage when people became sick.

Insurance executives have admitted falsely denying claims hoping that people would not fight their bills. Do you think that is ok? When denying care = increased profits we have a major problem that private companies would just not fix on their own.

What we need is a system run by private companies under strict government regulation, which is exactly what we have.

We need a minimum level of coverage - Without government regulation here the minimum coverage would be lower, deductibles and maximums would be even higher and people would still be filing bankruptcy for medical care.

We need to make sure coverage is available when it is needed. Covering preexisting conditions is a necessity, we can't penalize someone for losing their job and not being able to afford cobra.

We also can't let people hop in and out of the system for times when they are sick which is why we need everyone in the pool, and will force them to contribute via taxes when they are not.
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:
Prime example: Jimmy Carter's energy laws which virtually caused the second oil crisis in 1979, as well as billions of dollars misspent in bad but government subsidized investments which soon become nothing more than environmental albatrosses.
The 1979 oil crisis was due to the Iranian revolution and decrease in the overall oil supply.

Yeah, what an idiot Jimmy Carter was by seeing that relying on other countries for oil was a bad idea and wanting to invest in alternative sources of energy......
 
Originally posted by Merge:

Originally posted by Old_alum:


Prime example: Jimmy Carter's energy laws which virtually caused the second oil crisis in 1979, as well as billions of dollars misspent in bad but government subsidized investments which soon become nothing more than environmental albatrosses.



The 1979 oil crisis was due to the Iranian revolution and decrease in the overall oil supply.

Yeah, what an idiot Jimmy Carter was by seeing that relying on other countries for oil was a bad idea and wanting to invest in alternative sources of energy......

Thank you, Merge, for your very welcomed response.

I had earlier admitted that I have no special expertise in health care---other than being a consumer thereof and having scores of friends in the industry. That said, I spent over 20 years as a professional analyst of the political economics of the energy sector, so I am more confident of my facts in energy.

As Merge said, the Shiite overthrow of the Shah of Iran ---- coupled more importantly in the opinion of many experts with the Camp David peace accord between Israel and Egypt ---- were, in fact, political catalysts in 1979. Iran taking the American embassy employees as hostages was also a political crisis, but these are merely infamous facts, facts which even the learned and analytical like Merge usually take as the obvious 'cause' of the coincident oil crisis.

This is in microcosm the exact conservative-liberal expertise-ignorance dichotomy I am pleased to explore. On this board over the years both sides have trumpeted the risks of 'unintended consequences'. Jimmy Carter was the King of these Consequences.

When the Georgia peanut farmer and nuclear submarine officer was elected it happened IMHO not because the American people preferred him to Ford but rather to punish Ford---and, through him, Nixon--- for Watergate and the pardon. That being said, in 1976 the world economy was still staggering from the first oil price crisis of 1973, precipitated by another political event, an Arab-Israeli war.

The price of crude oil had been static for about 30 years (thank you Texas Railroad Commission) at roughly $2.50 per barrel. Opec, led by the militant Arab members, jacked the price up to $8/bbl and then it meandered up to about $10-12/bbl.

The energy markets, almost all 'regulated', were in shambles, as utilities had to go to their PUC for rate relief, as there did not yet exist any FAC---fuel adjustment clause---to pass through purchased fuel.

The ever egalitarian Democrats agonized that the evil oil companies with prior-existing oil and gas reserves would earn "windfall profits" thereon. They also fretted over the small, inefficient oil refiners who found it hard to compete with the huge financial resources of the "major" oil companies.

Nixon --- before 1973 --- had taken the foolish and very unconservative action of wage and price controls. After 1973 his administration tried to ward off hoarding and assure equitable access to scarce gasoline by allowing no more than $1 of gasoline (stet) {about 2.3 gallons then} at a single visit to a service station. These 'liberal' policies in the Nixonian clothing were horrible! But before 1977, for disastrous, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Carter was the default victor in 1976 and he went to work on an oil policy. He put in a split between pre-1973 US oil reserves and post 1973 discoveries. He floated the price of "new" crude (doing at least one good thing) albeit with a regulatory lag, but he froze the "old" reserves at inflation-adjusted pre-1973 prices. Those were not horrible.

To keep the "integrated" major oil companies from feeding their "old", low priced crude to their own refineries (a sort of windfall), Carter came up with the Crude Oil Equalization Tax (COET or Windfall Profit Tax --- WPT). Under WPT all American refineries recorded the price of every barrel of crude purchased and reported them to the DOE. At the end of the fiscal period (I think it was annual) the DOE would calculate the average cost of refiners' crude acquisitions for the nation. Then, any refiner who purchased crude below that average would pay the difference to the DOE who would send it out to any refiner who paid more than the average---thus the "crude oil equalization".

To assure viability during uncertainty Carter guaranteed that every refiner would sell its refined products (e.g. gasoline, diesel and home heating oil) at a profit of no less than, I believe, $2.50 per barrel.

Then to diversify the country away from the Rockefeller "Standard Oil" progeny, Carter gave Federal subsidies to any "small" refinery ---the "Small Refiner Bias". Then there was a plethora of capital sunk in inefficient but "small" new refineries --- "tea kettles" --- now all closed.

There were myriad of other foolish but less cancerous regs as well, but I shall focus on the BIG three.

Tell me, if you were a refiner who was guaranteed a $2.50/bbl PROFIT on each and every barrel of crude oil you refined, what would be the highest price you would pay for a barrel of crude oil to refine?

Unless you were an old timer whose brain was programmed in the ultra competitive free market for NYC residual oil (like Leon Hess, who dropped out of negotiations with Dubai when Arab Light hit $18/bbl because Leon said he couldn't figure out how he could make a profit selling resid at that price! LOL), you would adapt and pay ANY price for every barrel needed to fill your refinery, and thus maximize profits, right?

That is the only intelligent thing to do. When in 1979 the markets had a shiver from the Ayatollah Ruhollah Komeini, where do you think American refiners stopped their bid-price? NO WHERE!!!! The price spiked from about $12/bbl to over $40/bbl in DAYS!!! It didn't stop until the US refiners were all filled! There was no market risk and thus no buyers' restraint! Thank you, Jimmy Carter!!!

Now some might want to argue that the crude price probably would have spiked that high without the COET, but there was NO WAY! Less than 19 months later, the new President, Ronald Regan, in one of his very first official acts, decontrolled US crude oil, which Carter's regulations had then priced at about $32/bbl of NEW oil. Amoco immediately raised its "posted price" to the then "free market" $36/bbl for WTI (West Texas Intermediate)!

But a funny thing happened on the way to a free market! Within a few months the decontrolled price dropped to the high-$20s:low-$30s/bbl.

In 1986, with the "free market" no longer "controlled" by the hated government regulators, the price of WTI then plummeted to about $8/bbl ($6/bbl for Arab Light) when Opec was temporarily shattered as Saudi Arabia --- the 800 pound gorilla --- went to Net-Back pricing (the opposite of cost-plus, this was receipts-minus). But that is a story for another day, boys and girls.And such are the inefficiencies that almost ALWAYS result when a government interferes with the immutable laws of supply and demand (or price and demand). Economic laws which are almost as immutable as the scientific law of gravity.

The risk of unintended consequences!







This post was edited on 11/5 1:23 PM by Old_alum
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by Old_alum:

The problem is that the government has always been the least effective and least efficient 'solution' to any problem not addressed by Alexander Hamilton.

The liberal philosophy is to get a group of folks which IT believes to be experts (i.e. their philosopher kings), to let that group specify exactly what & when EVERYONE must do, to build a huge bureaucracy to 'control' that everyone does follows its dictums, and then to charge OPM ("other people's money") to pay for it.
If we implemented single payer, that would make more sense.

Duh! How does any benefit of a "single payer" result from anything you argued in this post??


Originally posted by Merge:
.... The government didn't step in and solve the problem. They stepped in to ensure insurance coverage was available. ...

Yes, but wouldn't it have been infinitely better if they had addressed the "problem"??


Originally posted by Merge:
....There are a lot of regulations included ....

My nominee for understatement of the century!


Originally posted by Merge:


...this was a very complex problem that politicians have been debating over for decades...

Hence my argument for "ignorance" as part-and-parcel of most liberal soultions.


Originally posted by Merge:

....they watched insurance companies deny coverages (sic) to their policy holders and even drop coverage when people became sick.

Insurance executives have admitted falsely denying claims hoping that people would not fight their bills. Do you think that is ok? When denying care = increased profits we have a major problem that private ["crooked!!" is better] companies would just not fix on their own. ...

All of these could have been fixed as I discussed above. I also favor mutual companies, because of your valid concern of the temptations that profit can have on executive morals. All crooked dealings should be prosecuted to the fullest exrtent of the law! The problem was not that these were "private" companies, but that they were being run by crooks.


Originally posted by Merge:


....What we need is a system run by private companies under strict government regulation, which is exactly what we have.

Strict is always good, or whu else have a regulation?

But what we have in ACA is EXCESSIVE MICRO REGULATION which has caused and will cause terrible inefficiencies as well as ineffective care.
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:

That is the only intelligent thing to do. When in 1979 the markets had a shiver from the Ayatollah Ruhollah Komeini, where do you think American refiners stopped their bid-price? NO WHERE!!!! The price spiked from about $12/bbl to over $40/bbl in DAYS!!! It didn't stop until the US refiners were all filled! There was no market risk and thus no buyers' restraint! Thank you, Jimmy Carter!!!

Now some might want to argue that the crude price probably would have spiked that high without the COET, but there was NO WAY! Less than 19 months later, the new President, Ronald Regan, in one of his very first official acts, decontrolled US crude oil, which Carter's regulations had then priced at about $32/bbl of NEW oil. Amoco immediately raised its "posted price" to the then "free market" $36/bbl for WTI (West Texas Intermediate)!

But a funny thing happened on the way to a free market! Within a few months the decontrolled price dropped to the high-$20s:low-$30s/bbl.

In 1986, with the "free market" no longer "controlled" by the hated government regulators, the price of WTI then plummeted to about $8/bbl ($6/bbl for Arab Light) when Opec was temporarily shattered as Saudi Arabia --- the 800 pound gorilla --- went to Net-Back pricing (the opposite of cost-plus, this was receipts-minus). But that is a story for another day, boys and girls.And such are the inefficiencies that almost ALWAYS result when a government interferes with the immutable laws of supply and demand (or price and demand). Economic laws which are almost as immutable as the scientific law of gravity.

The risk of unintended consequences!







This post was edited on 11/5 1:23 PM by Old_alum
Being that I was only 1 in 1979, I can only speak to which I have read but I do enjoy the research. Though, you seem to be implying that they otherwise would not have worried about potential shortages? Are you suggesting that when Iran's oil output dropped, represneting a loss of 7% of the global oil production, that US refineries would only fill up if they had a garunteed profit of 2.5 per barrel?

The fear of shortages and speculative hoarding is what I had believed to be the casue for the drastic increase in price.

The price of oil peaked in April 1980 and had decreased 11% from that point until Reagan stepped into office.

Global demand for oil started to decrease. In 1980 Global consumption was over 63 million barrels. by 1983 that was down to under 59 million barrels. United states decrased consumption by 11% during that time.

As demand decreases - price decreases.

Maybe Carter didn't help... but it is hard to see that his policies caused the crisis. The crisis was caused by panic of shortages as the world still remembered the shortage from 6 years prior.
 
Originally posted by Merge:

As demand decreases - price decreases.
Ehhhh, not exactly. Speculation has been driving the bus for quite some time now. Demand dropped off quite a bit once prices hit $2.50-$3.00, but it kept going from there, and has only RECENTLY come down, slightly.
 
Originally posted by donnie_baseball:
Originally posted by Merge:

As demand decreases - price decreases.
Ehhhh, not exactly. Speculation has been driving the bus for quite some time now. Demand dropped off quite a bit once prices hit $2.50-$3.00, but it kept going from there, and has only RECENTLY come down, slightly.
Indeed, I was making it a bit too simple to make the point... but once the demand stopped (speculation of shortages subsided) the price decreased.

but fwiw, when oil hit a high in 2008, world consumption decreased. The price per barrell decreased significantly in 2009 as did the price of gas in the US.
 
Originally posted by Merge:


Originally posted by donnie_baseball:


Originally posted by Merge:

As demand decreases - price decreases.
Ehhhh, not exactly. Speculation has been driving the bus for quite some time now. Demand dropped off quite a bit once prices hit $2.50-$3.00, but it kept going from there, and has only RECENTLY come down, slightly.
Indeed, I was making it a bit too simple to make the point... but once the demand stopped (speculation of shortages subsided) the price decreased.

but fwiw, when oil hit a high in 2008, world consumption decreased. The price per barrell decreased significantly in 2009 as did the price of gas in the US.
Merge,

I know you won't admit nor even realize it, but your last two posts IMHO prove the point: a person who has surfed the WWW for, what, 15-30 minutes, feels totally qualified to resolve an issue generated when they were in diapers, and then to feel quite satisfied about it as well.

No one who was not intimately involved in the oil markets as a professional will IMHO ever understand --- let alone appreciate --- the confluence of unprecedented forces that turned the world on its head, from Yom Kippur, 1973, until December, 1986.

While on the surface a sophomore economics major might consider your analysis relevant, I am afraid you are once more not listening.

The whole reason I mentioned Leon Hess in my earlier post was because I am quite sure from personal experience that he was the ONLY oil exec who even considered applying the rules of microeconomics in 1979, when the political-deck was stacked to guarantee a profit only upon crude acquisition. Any Jets fan will probably have an inkling of that special man's obstinacy once he made a decision.

Tell me, if you were guaranteed a profit but ONLY if you were able to procure a cargo of scarce crude oil, at what price would you stop bidding????

Now apply that to EVERY REFINER IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES & TERRITORIES, and then tell me that 1979 oil crisis was a normal hoarding reaction out of fear of shortage!!!

Saints preserve us!

Now, at least I can commiserate with those professionals from the health care industry who have been interacting with you in this thread.

Sigh!

But as I said, your post says it all. Q.E.D.








This post was edited on 11/5 5:23 PM by Old_alum
 
Originally posted by Old_alum:
Merge,

I know you won't admit nor even realize it, but your last two posts IMHO prove the point: a person who has surfed the WWW for, what, 15-30 minutes, feels totally qualified to resolve an issue generated when they were in diapers, and then to feel quite satisfied about it as well.

No one who was not intimately involved in the oil markets as a professional will IMHO ever understand --- let alone appreciate --- the confluence of unprecedented forces that turned the world on its head, from Yom Kippur, 1973, until December, 1986.

While on the surface a sophomore economics major might consider your analysis relevant, I am afraid you are once more not listening.

The whole reason I mentioned Leon Hess in my earlier post was because I am quite sure from personal experience that he was the ONLY oil exec who even considered applying the rules of microeconomics in 1979, when the political-deck was stacked to guarantee a profit only upon crude acquisition. Any Jets fan will probably have an inkling of that special man's obstinacy once he made a decision.

Tell me, if you were guaranteed a profit but ONLY if you were able to procure a cargo of scarce crude oil, at what price would you stop bidding????

Now apply that to EVERY REFINER IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES & TERRITORIES, and then tell me that 1979 oil crisis was a normal hoarding reaction out of fear of shortage!!!

Saints preserve us!

Now, at least I can commiserate with those professionals from the health care industry who have been interacting with you in this thread.

Sigh!

But as I said, your post says it all. Q.E.D.
Luckily, this topic has come up during my education so I did not have to rely solely on 15 minutes of research, though the research today did appear to confirm what I remember from my studies, and I am sure you have opined on issues from before you were born so I don't think my age disqualifies me from a discussion.

A disruption in supply normally increases prices as it did in 1979.
Crude increased this year on fears of disruption from Russia/Ukraine.

and yes... I do rely on data to support a hypothesis.

According to the EIA, US imports of foreign crude oil did not increase after 1977 for 20 years.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUS1&f=A

Shouldn't what you are suggesting require additional imports in 1979 in order to be true?

The crude oil windfall profit tax was passed in 1980, so I don't see how the crisis in 1979 could have been caused by a bill in 1980 unless I am missing something from your timeline.
 
Your rational makes little sense. Do we all deserve to have a new Mercedes,, BMW etc.? Some of us can only afford a used vehicle. Do we all deserve a million dollar home or the best clothes? Things are not equal. Left wing liberalism has you brainwashed into buying into that theory. Everyone deserves healthcare, yes, but common sense tells us that it will not be equal nor can it be. Remember your care under the Affordable Health Care act has taken away the doctor patient relationship. It is now the government patient relationship.
 
________________________________________

Originally posted by Merge:

________________________________________



Luckily, this topic has come up[/I] during my education[/B] so I did not have to rely solely on 15 minutes of research[/B], though the research today did appear to confirm what I remember from my studies[/B], and I am sure you have opined on issues from before you were born so I don't think my age disqualifies me from a discussion.

________________________________________

Alas, here we go again!



Merge, this latest post is prima facie evidence of the typical Liberal's approach to research and analysis.



As I discussed above, it is this attitude that ''a philosopher king with a modicum of prep'' is the best person to promulgate regulations to micromanage every act allowed and prohibited by trillion-dollar industries with little need for practical professional experience when evaluating arcane topics.



How fortunate we are that the 1979 oil crisis ''came up in (your) studies'', so that your ''15 minutes of research'' could ''confirm what (you) remember from (your) studies''! How could one indict such impeccable credentials!



What were the sweet-sour differentials? How many stills could handle high sulfur? What impact were the changes in upgrading on crude selection? How did FRB policies interact? etc. etc. ad nauseum

________________________________________

Originally posted by Merge:



A disruption[/B] in supply normally increases prices[/B] as it did in 1979.

Crude increased this year on fears of disruption from Russia/Ukraine[/B].

________________________________________



Did you learn that in your studies, too?



If so, your learned well!



But let's drill down a bit. By what percentage did the price of WTI increase during your fears of Ukrainian disruption?



Now, by what percentage did the price of WTI increase during 1979?



Do you see a difference?



I already explained that it was the twin political crises of Iran and Camp David which precipitated the crisis in the oil markets. But I have given you both logical and testimonial evidence that it was the Carter Energy plan which removed market risk from unbridled bidding and then added a very strong economic incentive for a guaranteed profit which escalated the bidding exponentially!

________________________________________

Originally posted by Merge:



According to the EIA, US imports of foreign crude oil did not increase[/I] after 1977[/I] for 20 years[/B].

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUS1&f=A

________________________________________

First, your own linked data refutes your analysis.

1971 . . . 483,293

1972 . . . 613,417

1973 . . . 811,135

1974 . . . 1,183,996

1975 . . . 1,269,155

1976 . . . 1,498,181

1977 . . . 1,935,012[/B]

1978 . . . 2,414,327[/I]

1979 . . . 2,319,826[/I]

1980 . . . 2,379,541[/I]

1981 . . . 1,926,162

1982 . . . 1,604,703

1983 . . . 1,273,214



Which of the years 1978, 1979, and 1980 were NOT GREATER than the 1977 figure?

Answer: NONE

________________________________________

Originally posted by Merge:



Shouldn't what you are suggesting require[/I] additional imports in 1979[/B] in order to be true?

________________________________________

And even your stats did[/I] support your argument[/I], the total US Imports are a function of only domestic demand less domestic production, not of any particular foreign nation as supplier. Specious logic.



________________________________________

Originally posted by Merge:



The crude oil windfall profit tax[/B] was passed in 1980, so I don't see how the crisis in 1979 could have been caused by a bill in 1980 unless I am missing something from your timeline.

________________________________________

And such is the result of a haste to judgment.



If you will go back and reread (or read for the first time) what I took so much time to explain about the foolish Carter Energy Program, I highlighted three major problems buried amid a deluge of minor ones:

1. Crude Oil Equalization Tax (often miscalled Windfall Profits)

2. Guaranteed refiners' profit margins

3. Small Refiner Bias



After the debacle of 1979 caused by Carter's foolish 1977 plan (put into effect January 1, 1978), the peanut farmer sought a late-term tourniquet to boost domestic production by decontrolling both "Old" and "New" oil prices, but fear of the Big Bad Oil Companies getting unjustly rewarded they did pass the Crude Oil Windfall Profit Tax of 1980, another example of ignorant Liberal reliance on ''studies'' by whiz-kids instead of advice from professionals.



If you must rely on Wikipedia, can you please at least read the topic before you get carried off in your web surf?













After all of this your barbs still seem to be missing the topic of discussion that when Liberal policy makers ignore the practical expertise and proven economic principles of the marketplace then the country almost always seems to get saddled with inefficient and ineffective laws which cost millions if not billions of dollars and --- dreadfully --- perhaps sometimes lives.



Sigh!
 
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