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EO on Birthright Citizenship

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Clearly unconstitutional.
OK, then explain the meaning of the phrase I bolded above. When would be a circumstance when someone would be born in the United States and not subject to the jurisdiction thereof? If the interpretation of this section is that anyone born in the United States at any time under any circumstances, then why insert of phrase that specifically limits it?

That's the decision the court will be faced with. Courts don't like to take a big red sharpie and just cross out phrases and say well, it really doesn't mean anything, so what they'll have to do is look at the circumstances behind the amendment and what the reasoning was and then apply that going forward.
 
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ice-raid-newark-new-jersey-business/

Deceiving headline. Business raided and three taken into custody. So they asked everyone for ID….

Go to bedmister and mar a lago
 
OK, then explain the meaning of the phrase I bolded above.

It means anyone in the US and subject to our laws. The court has discussed this several times and confirmed that meaning.
A foreign diplomat for example could be in the US, have a child and that child would not gain citizenship.

If you believe that we have the right to call an illegal immigrant illegal and deport them because they violated our laws of entering the country (which would be correct) then they are under our jurisdiction while in the US.

Like I said, I do not agree with the amendment in the modern day when we don't need to think about what to do with slaves who were freed, but it is going to need an update to the amendment to change it.
 
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The EO on birthright citizenship strikes me more of a shot across the bow to set the stage for legislation.

On deportation, Homan has made it pretty clear that their focus will be on criminals. And let’s not forget he served under Obama and did a good job deporting illegals then, so clearly a guy that can be effective if given the authority.

What’s look at this practically. It sounds like ICE had packets on an employee(s) of the Newark business today and they got who they were seeking. Mission accomplished.

It’s fair to assume these raids will be on businesses that probably employ other illegals who have not committed a crime. I can tell you from firsthand experience, it’s not that hard to have a “Social Security number” and license and still be illegal. Well, those employees be afraid? Yes. Well, they quit because of a raid? No, because most industries and businesses they will work will have the same issue.

Where this will help, is if the legislation provides a pathway to citizenship. Without the fear of being swept up in a raid, law abiding illegals will not declare and apply for that pathway process because they don’t trust the government.

Homan seems to know what he’s doing. He’s done it before and it was a brilliant move to name him Border Czar and not have to be approved through the cabinet process. Probably saved him two or three months in planning. It’s clear that he is running the show and Christie Noem is going to defer illegal immigration activities to him.
 
It means anyone in the US and subject to our laws. The court has discussed this several times and confirmed that meaning.
A foreign diplomat for example could be in the US, have a child and that child would not gain citizenship.

If you believe that we have the right to call an illegal immigrant illegal and deport them because they violated our laws of entering the country (which would be correct) then they are under our jurisdiction while in the US.

Like I said, I do not agree with the amendment in the modern day when we don't need to think about what to do with slaves who were freed, but it is going to need an update to the amendment to change it.
So you think that language was intended to apply just to the offspring of foreign diplomats? OK then. We'll see if the Court shares that view.
 
So you think that language was intended to apply just to the offspring of foreign diplomats? OK then. We'll see if the Court shares that view.

Have you looked into this?

The court has weighed in. Read United States v. Wong Kim Ark. It is very clear.

“The foregoing considerations and authorities irresistibly lead us to these conclusions: the Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States. Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States.”
 
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Have you looked into this?

The court has weighed in. Read United States v. Wong Kim Ark. It is very clear.

“The foregoing considerations and authorities irresistibly lead us to these conclusions: the Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States. Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States.”
I had not looked into it and was unfamiliar with the case. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I do note that the language above indicates birthright citizenship for the children of "resident aliens" which refers to people who are lawfully in the country. Because Wong's parents were resident aliens the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the issue of whether birthright citizenship applies to the children of illegal aliens.

Undoubtedly, that's where the current case is headed and they can decide that issue within the context of millions of people entering the country illegally rather than the instance of a single individual trying to re-enter the country due to birthright citizenship.
 
This seems like the Trump playbook…. Switch to the extreme and then negotiate from there.
 
I do note that the language above indicates birthright citizenship for the children of "resident aliens" which refers to people who are lawfully in the country. Because Wong's parents were resident aliens the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the issue of whether birthright citizenship applies to the children of illegal aliens.

I would disagree as this section seems clear they are refuting to anyone in the US.

“The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States. Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States.”

Though, we don’t have to rely on my interpretation there either, the court has upheld this in Plyler v. Doe.

“The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a "person" in any ordinary sense of that term. This Court's prior cases recognizing that illegal aliens are "persons" protected by the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which Clauses do not include the phrase "within its jurisdiction," cannot be distinguished on the asserted ground that persons who have entered the country illegally are not "within the jurisdiction" of a State even if they are present within its boundaries and subject to its laws. Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory.”

To argue an illegal immigrant is not under our jurisdiction when they are here would mean that we could not hold them accountable to our laws. We would not be able to arrest or detain them if we lacked jurisdiction over them (like a foreign diplomat)
 
This seems like the Trump playbook…. Switch to the extreme and then negotiate from there.

Indeed that is common for him, but there’s not much room to negotiate here when the court has to weigh in. They will say it’s not constitutional and then there is no leverage for negotiations on the issue.

It does put it front and center for attention though to try and build public support for changing the amendment, but we’re no where near where we would need to be to get that done.
 
I would disagree as this section seems clear they are refuting to anyone in the US.

“The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States. Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States.”

Though, we don’t have to rely on my interpretation there either, the court has upheld this in Plyler v. Doe.

“The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a "person" in any ordinary sense of that term. This Court's prior cases recognizing that illegal aliens are "persons" protected by the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which Clauses do not include the phrase "within its jurisdiction," cannot be distinguished on the asserted ground that persons who have entered the country illegally are not "within the jurisdiction" of a State even if they are present within its boundaries and subject to its laws. Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory.”

To argue an illegal immigrant is not under our jurisdiction when they are here would mean that we could not hold them accountable to our laws. We would not be able to arrest or detain them if we lacked jurisdiction over them (like a foreign diplomat)
Disagree. The court unambiguously stated that it meant “complete” jurisdiction, such as existed under the law at the time, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which excluded from citizenship those born on U.S. soil who were “subject to a foreign power.”

The Supreme Court confirmed that understanding (albeit in dicta) in the first case addressing the 14th Amendment, noting in The Slaughterhouse Cases in 1872 that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” It then confirmed that understanding in the 1884 case of Elk v. Wilkins, holding that the “subject to the jurisdiction” phrase required that one be “not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.”

Ultimately, the Supreme Court will decide the issue. To suggest that it's already decided, is disingenuous.

Good discussion. I appreciate it and it pushed me to actually drill down a little bit more and start looking into the issue.
 
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Indeed that is common for him, but there’s not much room to negotiate here when the court has to weigh in. They will say it’s not constitutional and then there is no leverage for negotiations on the issue.

It does put it front and center for attention though to try and build public support for changing the amendment, but we’re no where near where we would need to be to get that done.
Yeah, I meant he knows this really isn’t possible or worth addressing. Just a way to throw out a position and see how people react.
 
Yeah, I meant he knows this really isn’t possible or worth addressing. Just a way to throw out a position and see how people react.
I strongly suspect he thinks he'll win, otherwise there are other ways to address the issue.

I absolutely agree with your observation that the president is inclined to start at a position that is most favorable to him and then negotiate from there. Years of real estate negotiation have taught him that ceding ground without a reciprocal concession doesn't lead to an optimal result. I think President Trump is best understood when his actions, tweets, etc. are viewed within the context of an opening salvo in negotiation.

In my view, the reason why he issued this executive order as quickly as he did so that it be litigated under his DOJ. This iteration of President Trump is far more savvy about politics, litigation, and constitutional issues, which to me was a notable, and annoying, weakness in his first administration. It's too soon to say, but my suspicion is this is the input of savvy chief of staff Susan Wiles who understands the legislative and judicial process very well.
 
The Supreme Court confirmed that understanding (albeit in dicta) in the first case addressing the 14th Amendment, noting in The Slaughterhouse Cases in 1872 that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

Right. Slaughterhouse did not establish how we interpret the phrase. Wong Kim Ark did.

Elk vs Wiggins established that subject to the jurisdiction does not apply to Native American lands because those lands are not under US jurisdiction. They have their own laws.

Also, the citation you used "not merely subject in some respect..." is not from Elk but from the dissenting opinion in Wong Kim Ark. Supporting your view based on a dissent is not very compelling when the actual opinion of the case (and others that followed) does not support your view.

Ultimately, the Supreme Court will decide the issue. To suggest that it's already decided, is disingenuous.

Indeed, nothing is certain until the court weighs in on Trump's EO specifically and the court is able to overturn once held positions so anything is possible, but there is a fair amount of precedent they have to overcome here. And again, are you really arguing that illegal immigrants are not subject to US jurisdiction? We wouldn't be able to detain them for anything if they were the case. They would essentially have the same immunity to our laws as diplomats? The court is just going to ignore Plyler?

"Use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" thus does not detract from, but rather confirms, the understanding that the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory. That a person's initial entry into a State, or into the United States, was unlawful, and that he may for that reason be expelled, cannot negate the simple fact of his presence within the State's territorial perimeter. Given such presence, he is subject to the full range of obligations imposed by the State's civil and criminal laws. And until he leaves the jurisdiction -- either voluntarily, or involuntarily in accordance with the Constitution and laws of the United States -- he is entitled to the equal protection of the laws that a State may choose to establish."
 
And again, are you really arguing that illegal immigrants are not subject to US jurisdiction?
No, I am suggesting that there is a reasonable basis to interpret the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as meaning, not owing dual loyalties. Since an illegal alien is a citizen of another jurisdiction arguably, they owe a loyalty to that jurisdiction and thus their offspring are not afforded Birthright citizenship. Are you suggesting that that is not a possible interpretation of the 14th amendment?
 
No, I am suggesting that there is a reasonable basis to interpret the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as meaning, not owing dual loyalties. Since an illegal alien is a citizen of another jurisdiction arguably, they owe a loyalty to that jurisdiction and thus their offspring are not afforded Birthright citizenship. Are you suggesting that that is not a possible interpretation of the 14th amendment?

The court has specifically addressed what subject to the jurisdiction means, and what you’re posting is in opposition to that. So while it might seem reasonable to you and anything is possible, I’d say it’s very unlikely the court will agree with you as It is against established precedent based on several opinions from the court.
 
The court has specifically addressed what subject to the jurisdiction means, and what you’re posting is in opposition to that. So while it might seem reasonable to you and anything is possible, I’d say it’s very unlikely the court will agree with you as It is against established precedent based on several opinions from the court.
Disagree. I think you are overstating the holding by of Wong which did not involve the citizenship of an illegal alien. But we ll see.
 
U.S. Citizenship is a precious commodity but it is not a finite resource. I am more than willing to extend citizenship to a child who is born in this country, regardless of the status of their parents. The sin of the parent should not extend to the child.

Immigration reform is a worthy goal. Ending Birthright Citizenship is not reform, it is punishment for the sake of punishment.
 
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