Fair trade?
- Thread starter SHUSA
- Start date
Terrible trade, worst since Babe Ruth.
Trade an American-hating terrorist bent on killing real Americans for an American-hating basketball player while Paul Whelan still sits in a Russian prison?
Griner was not a high value target whereby any trade should have been made. Just disgraceful, we've been played.
Trade an American-hating terrorist bent on killing real Americans for an American-hating basketball player while Paul Whelan still sits in a Russian prison?
Griner was not a high value target whereby any trade should have been made. Just disgraceful, we've been played.
It's a tough call. On one hand you can get an American back. On the other hand, one American is left there with no leverage at all. It is a no win situation. However, I have to hold my ground and get both Americans back for Bout.
Brittany Grier was imprisoned for really nothing. However, Whelan has been jailed since 2018. There may be more to the Whelan story. Now, it may be that he was indeed a spy and therefore, Russia refused to turn him over and we were never getting him back. Or he is just an innocent who is totally getting screwed.
Brittany Grier was imprisoned for really nothing. However, Whelan has been jailed since 2018. There may be more to the Whelan story. Now, it may be that he was indeed a spy and therefore, Russia refused to turn him over and we were never getting him back. Or he is just an innocent who is totally getting screwed.
Is it a tough call or just a really bad call? We just look pathetic and weak.
That's a hypothetical, but given that the messaging from the administration has been about a package deal previously, why would they have if he was?
I'd imagine Whelan is released somewhat soon. It could have been already negotiated and the releases staggered so Russia can claim a win on this one and a "goodwill" gesture down the road. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Russians allowed him to speak to CNN on the very day Griner was released.
Clearly at first glance this is a "win" for Russia.
But are we giving Russia a win just because we are desperate to get Griner home, or is there some other strategy behind it?
I tend to think you're right and there will be something else there. Hope so at least.
You also have to remember that the merchant of death has served 14 years of a 25 yr sentence. Federal time means 85% so he would be released at 21 years. So, there was only 7 years left on his sentence. This is an important consideration as well.
Let's be blunt, this is a terrible day in American history. A monstrous blunder.
I rarely get all that political, but this really makes my blood boil. Completely baffling. This is the epitome of weak leadership. We look like a weak, compromised, celebrity-first country to the rest of the world right now.
I hope our president is taking great comfort in his senility and knowing that this decision is going to cost lives across the globe - some American lives as well. We traded the real-life equivalent of a James Bond villain(who took the efforts and cooperation of several countries to bring in) for an ungrateful basketball player who admittedly effed up. Great. Just great. I bet Bout was laughing and twirling his mustache all the way back to Russia.
Although Griner is not an entirely sympathetic character, I do feel for her. She was in a horrible, no win situation. That penalty colony was indeed going to break her, but when the alternative is the release of someone who is going to instigate death and destruction (not to mention he is probably already responsible for the deaths of some Americans), then you have to take one for the team. Sorry, it was her own ignorance that put her in that situation. One must be aware when traveling internationally. That's her responsibility. She's not a college kid anymore.
Russia played our president and our negotiators like a tune. Shame. Russia looks like some master G's right now. They knew exactly what to do: make an extreme example of the basketball player, knowing it would eventually, if patient, force our feeble president's hand. Master manipulators. They got exactly what they wanted. They also knew this trade would even further divide our country. And don't think for a second this opens the door for Whalen. That train ain't going nowhere. Russia got it's one-for-one deal. Now a terrorist is free to get back to his day job of facilitating death and destruction. Chess to Checkers.
Our president, in his fading mind, sees this as a victory. A great day. What this really is, is a blight on his administration and our country's negotiators. He needs to answer for this when it blows up in his face.
What must the rest of the world think of us today? They see us for who we really are: a weak, celebrity driven culture who just released an international menace for peanuts. This is like trading Tom Brady for an equipment manager.
Bad day for the world at large. Shameful day for this country and the administration who runs it.
Enjoy your freedom, Griner, it was paid for in blood.
End Rant.
I rarely get all that political, but this really makes my blood boil. Completely baffling. This is the epitome of weak leadership. We look like a weak, compromised, celebrity-first country to the rest of the world right now.
I hope our president is taking great comfort in his senility and knowing that this decision is going to cost lives across the globe - some American lives as well. We traded the real-life equivalent of a James Bond villain(who took the efforts and cooperation of several countries to bring in) for an ungrateful basketball player who admittedly effed up. Great. Just great. I bet Bout was laughing and twirling his mustache all the way back to Russia.
Although Griner is not an entirely sympathetic character, I do feel for her. She was in a horrible, no win situation. That penalty colony was indeed going to break her, but when the alternative is the release of someone who is going to instigate death and destruction (not to mention he is probably already responsible for the deaths of some Americans), then you have to take one for the team. Sorry, it was her own ignorance that put her in that situation. One must be aware when traveling internationally. That's her responsibility. She's not a college kid anymore.
Russia played our president and our negotiators like a tune. Shame. Russia looks like some master G's right now. They knew exactly what to do: make an extreme example of the basketball player, knowing it would eventually, if patient, force our feeble president's hand. Master manipulators. They got exactly what they wanted. They also knew this trade would even further divide our country. And don't think for a second this opens the door for Whalen. That train ain't going nowhere. Russia got it's one-for-one deal. Now a terrorist is free to get back to his day job of facilitating death and destruction. Chess to Checkers.
Our president, in his fading mind, sees this as a victory. A great day. What this really is, is a blight on his administration and our country's negotiators. He needs to answer for this when it blows up in his face.
What must the rest of the world think of us today? They see us for who we really are: a weak, celebrity driven culture who just released an international menace for peanuts. This is like trading Tom Brady for an equipment manager.
Bad day for the world at large. Shameful day for this country and the administration who runs it.
Enjoy your freedom, Griner, it was paid for in blood.
End Rant.
We put the life’s of many at risk for someone who hates America. It was the only thing we could do to get her back? I guess leaving her there was not an option. If she was my kid I would make her apologize to the people of America on her hands and knees. Instead she will get a book deal worth millions.
Putin giving a goodwill gesture. Have you lost your mind, he is about making us look like jackasses. He could care less about goodwill gestures, if he was close enough he would cut your throat for even saying that.
Griner should have refused her release until Whelan was included.
I jest of course, she probably has no idea who Whelan is.
I jest of course, she probably has no idea who Whelan is.
Predictably (or sadly), the response by some on here and nationally is entirely political. But this is not a political issue. It's about getting an American citizen back on home soil, regardless of what you think of her personal political opinions or those of the people who secured her release.
Politics stops at the water's edge.
Politics stops at the water's edge.
Earlier in the day NBC reported Biden had a choice between Whelan or Griner. That quickly changed to her or nothing. That’s political. This decision should not be political it’s more about common sense. I wouldn’t have traded for Whelan either. People will die from this decision. I would not have released this guy for anyone. Sacrificing many for one single person simply does not make sense.
Or, 7 years goes by, he’s released and we get nothing.
I get what you’re saying though. One for one this doesn’t seem like an even trade… but at some point he was going to get out, but I do still hope this will be a part of something bigger.
Those of you that think this is a horrible decision are looking at this trade like baseball. It’s not value to value. Should you let a female civilian who was caught with a minor offense stay in jail because you could not get both out? So the option is get no one? So you didn’t get anyone out because you would not trade a civilian who would have to spend 10 years in jail for a guy who has already served 2/3 of his prison time And only has 7 years left?
This is very difficult decision where there is no satisfactory outcome. It sucks. But start weighing all options. i understand the criticism but I also understand why the trade was made as well. It’s a tough call. And Putin put Biden in a no win position. That’s what this is all about. Doing nothing and letting both Americans sit in jail is not a valid option when you consider all options.
This is very difficult decision where there is no satisfactory outcome. It sucks. But start weighing all options. i understand the criticism but I also understand why the trade was made as well. It’s a tough call. And Putin put Biden in a no win position. That’s what this is all about. Doing nothing and letting both Americans sit in jail is not a valid option when you consider all options.
This. Partisans will say we "left a marine behind" to get a rise out of people. No, the US can't control what Russia wants or does with its prisoners. We can only make the best deal possible at any given time. Yesterday, this was it. It doesn't mean they aren't working hard to get Whelan out too.
No one is saying its an easy decision. But you can't deny it looks bad optically and the bottom line is that we have let essentially a terrorist go.
Not suggesting we do nothing. But that's the job of the administration...if you hit a dead end, try something else.
I agree with you in that "It sucks".
Again, what’s the acceptable choice? He’s not a terrorist. He’s an arms dealer. And he’s out of jail in 7 years. You already had him serve 2/3 of his sentence so he did serve a substantial amount of time.
Easy to criticize. What would you have done?
I wouldn't set such a horrific precedent like this that sends a signal to the world that we are weak. And we know how you love precedent.
I wouldn't have done this. As I said, the optics are terrible and we have let a murderer/terrorist out who should still be locked up. Why do you care that he's served a "substantial" amount of time? Are you sympathetic to his incarceration?
These are not answers. You criticize but have no answer. So the both of you would let Greiner and Whelan sit in jail. Is that your answer?
Btw, he served 2/3 of his time is an important factor. If he was in jail for 2 years on a 25 yr sentence changes everything. It has nothing to do with sympathy.
For 7 years and then he goes home anyway though.
He's of no real use to them anymore. They not going to trust him to actually do anything at this point. This seems to be more of a propaganda win for them.
This didn't happen in a bubble though. These negotiations are happening in the middle of a war that Russia is fighting and the US is aiding their enemy. It would seem a little naïve to think that these discussions only discussed Bout and Griner and did not discuss anything else. This is a topic we will need to revisit a few months from now to see if this "win" for Russia was a part of something bigger or not.
Just commenting on the facts as they stand now, not some hypothetical down the road.
Hope you are right but for now that's just another conspiracy theory.
You have Bout in jail for 7 more years before he is released. They will have two Americans in jail for 10 yrs or more years when one could have been released. Brittany who is just a pawn in all this.
It's heartless but I understand that view. I just don't agree with it due to the fact you only have Bout in jail for 7 more years.
7 years is still a long time for somebody who was once our most wanted. And is parole automatically granted in 7 years? What message does that send to the rest of the world?
I agree with you as of the facts as of now, but I think we all can understand that the current environment here is fairly complex and that this trade didn't happen in a vacuum where we should only consider the trade as a 1 for 1. That's not a conspiracy theory, that is just understanding that this happened in the middle of a war that Russia is fighting against a country that the US is supporting.
If we look back 3-6 months from now and there has been no progress between Russia and Ukraine or the US has been drawn further in.. then yes, I agree with your take here. However if in 3-6 months from now we may be able to look at this as the start of negotiations towards the the end of the war and I would view this very differently.
Time is the only thing that is going to provide that context.
I said at the beginning of the war that Putin is going to need to come out of this with wins and the US will need to manage what that means. I still believe that to be the case. Maybe this is not one of those wins or maybe it isn't.
He maxes out in 7 years and is deported to Russia is what would happen. So, you got 7 more years with him and jail and he is now back in Russia. Meanwhile, Russia still has two of our citizens and we lost all leverage of getting anyone back.
well, by your view griner would be out in 8 years. so russia would lose their leverage too
This is actually getting comical.
The bottom line is that we traded anti-American who had a fraction of an ounce of cannabis oil for an arms dealing terrorist while leaving a marine in jail. Russia negotiated from a position of strength from the very beginning. They knew our media would make a big deal and tear at the heart strings of 1/2 the country.
The bottom line is that we traded anti-American who had a fraction of an ounce of cannabis oil for an arms dealing terrorist while leaving a marine in jail. Russia negotiated from a position of strength from the very beginning. They knew our media would make a big deal and tear at the heart strings of 1/2 the country.
I have always been of the point that the US government does not negotiate with terrorists. Just not the way to do things.
If was a 2-1 swap, I wouldn't have loved it, but could accept it a little more.
My real question/problem, if instead of Griner this was some college student that got caught and convicted, would the US have made this deal, my thought is they would not.
If was a 2-1 swap, I wouldn't have loved it, but could accept it a little more.
My real question/problem, if instead of Griner this was some college student that got caught and convicted, would the US have made this deal, my thought is they would not.
