Guys, this is morphing into a Life off the Ship thread. I'll leave it here for a short while for everyone to see then I am moving it.
Former Archbishop a bad hombre
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
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The problem is systemic. It is not a case of a bad priest in North Dakota, another in Alabama, and still another in New Hampshire, each acting on his own sick impulses. This is a case of a homosexual network appointing their own, covering for their own, so the problem goes much deeper than a bad priest here and there acting without reference to others like him. Witness the fact that the problem is international; homosexual priests or candidates for the priesthood from South America were shipped to dioceses in New Jersey and New York. Things like that do not happen accidentally; there was coordination at both ends.
I'm certainly not saying the Catholic Church is without fault, but the problem goes well beyond one organization. The Baptist Church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, heck the Jehovah's Witnesses and plenty more christian churches that I haven't mentioned by name are all facing major child abuse problems. It's not just a Catholic problem and it's not a coincidence.
The Diocese of Newark knew about this 20+ years ago and they did everything to keep this quiet. That’s what makes me question the church. I know of one new priest at the time in the early 90’s who told everyone he could what was going on with Mccarrick and they made his time a living hell until he finally couldn’t take it anymore and left the seminary.
When I was a kid when this guy would come to our church we were always told he was going to be a cardinal one day and could become Pope. We were told how great of a man he was... that’s why people don’t trust the church. Don’t think we needed this report to understand what the man was....
When I was a kid when this guy would come to our church we were always told he was going to be a cardinal one day and could become Pope. We were told how great of a man he was... that’s why people don’t trust the church. Don’t think we needed this report to understand what the man was....
Of just the examples I gave or should we include all of the public schools, political offices, and other organizations that face these same issues, though interestingly with far less public criticism?
The common denominator is people. The people running these organizations have been prioritizing the reputation of the organization over the safety and well-being of its members. They fear that addressing the issues will draw attention to them, and religious institutions in particular feel a great amount of pressure to appear spotless. Of course those priorities are now backfiring as the lack of appropriate action is damaging their reputation far more than immediately addressing an incident would have.
There is a subset of people with power and influence that will prey on others. And even though there are others in those institutions that are aware of these slimeballs, they will hide them to seemingly want to protect that institution. Catholic Church, NBC, Penn State....very different but much alike.
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But the Catholic problem is not one of child abuse, as some would have us believe. Other churches may also have problems but let"s not fall into the "we're not the only ones" trap. The Catholic Church has always been the main target of Satan and it always will be. I doubt he gives a hoot about Jehovah's Witnesses or any other denomination, but he's sure making inroads in the Church
I like your response and for the most part I agree with you. The Catholic Church needs to worry about its own problems and not anybody else's. However, to identify the root of the problem (a step below Satan), I think it would be foolish to dismiss others as totally unrelated. For example, if it was a Catholic only problem, I would start by recommending a change to allow clerical marriage. After all, priests are human men with the same desires of the flesh as the rest of us, but without the option of having a public romantic relationship - does that lead some to commit these awful acts? However, looking at Protestant churches, most if not all do allow clerical marriage so that's probably not the answer.
The problem goes far beyond the Catholic Church.
We should start with how the media chooses to cover this.
"According to Pennsylvania Sen. Pat Toomey, 275 U.S. teachers have been accused of abuse since Jan. 1. And that's only those who've been accused. By comparison, the Catholic League estimates seven credible sexual abuse cases each year for 40,000 priests."
That quote is not intended to lessen the horrific things that priests have done.
Here is another
"Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft looked into the problem, and the first thing that came to her mind when Education Week reported on the study were the daily headlines about the Catholic Church.
Think the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."
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Does that lead some to commit these awful Acts?
The question of whether married priests would solve the problem, as many seem to claim
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Ah, well yes I know that. It was the point of the example. In a Catholic only bubble it's a logical suggestion, but the equal or greater presence of abuse cases in Protestant churches and non-religious organizations show it's not the answer.
Another sector that that is getting off the hook.
https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-r...st-confront-sexual-abuse-of-military-children
https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-r...st-confront-sexual-abuse-of-military-children
We seemed shocked by this, the recent and I mean from at least the start of the Church this has been occurring..
Had a renegade priest once end a sermon, "in the history of the church, priest have been married longer than they haven't " it's time to go back to natural law, that and let women be priest.Mary Magdalene was as important as any male disciple,if not more so.
Had a renegade priest once end a sermon, "in the history of the church, priest have been married longer than they haven't " it's time to go back to natural law, that and let women be priest.Mary Magdalene was as important as any male disciple,if not more so.
Again why is 50% of the population not represented on the altar and in the priesthood? It's archaic and 100% wrong. And yes priests should be able to get married. Maybe they'd be able to connect better with most of their parishioners that are married and have families who seek their counsel? It's really not that hard to see but the Catholic church continues to not change and wonder why so many are leaving.
And all these posts saying the problem goes beyond the Catholic church are true but it doesn't help the church. Instead it avoids the problem - the church has to fix itself and change, becoming 100% transparent to reduce the problem. Instead the church makes a few policy changes and doesn't police itself and doesn't allow the lay people in to make the decisions and oversee things. It would rather keep the men who have created the problems in charge. It's the definition of insanity. Sad...
Why is 50% of the population not represented in government? Married priests wouldn't solve the issue, and "connection" has nothing to do with it. If I see a psychologist for anxiety, does s/he have to be an anxiety patient themselves in order to counsel me? And then you tie it up with why there's an exodus. News flash: There has been an exodus from all religions (in the US) for 50 years. And it's cultural; the abuse scandal is a convenient excuse for those who simply don't feel the need to be involved any more.
Agree with this part, but some of the "policy changes" have been radical reform in vetting who does and doesn't become clergy -- much needed.
Donnie what I'm saying is that women should be allowed to be priests. It's ridiculous in this day and age that they aren't. I didn't say that 50% of the priests should be women? Your argument about the government is irrelevant.
If you want to change the church you have be open to actual change. The church is a mess. I know I'm a trustee at my parish and have spoken to the Cardinal and a number of priests multiple times. There is no agreement among the priests or bishops or cardinals. Most of the priests I talk to want change in some ways. The leaders are tone deaf and have no clue what most of their parishioners lives are really like. They don't want to change as the status quo is easier.
If you want to attract the younger generation - both men and women (even though its a tough time for all religions) you have to be more representative and have women priests, allow priests to marry and be way more open and welcoming to LGBT. Our church will most likely not do any of those things and the results are gonna hurt even worse in 20 years but no one wants to admit that or do anything about it. Protect the Children policies were a decent start in the US but the church can't get out of its own way. What other religions are doing and the fact that other parts of society have problems will not help the Catholic church - just give the members and folks running the ship a convenient excuse. You sound a little like you believe all the talking points. I have three kids and have raised them in the church and none of them go to church regularly anymore. Same as most of the parents on our Finance Council at our church. It stinks and they may come back but if you are so blind to the trend and are OK with it because its happening in society then I feel bad for you. Change is really hard and the hierarchy and many Catholics will fight it at every turn. You can change and still keep the foundational tenants of the religion for the most part as well. I believe a reformation is needed.
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Your personal experiences are appreciated, but not everyone's experience. We are very involved with our parish and the Diocese of Metuchen, and there is no indication of "no agreement," and our parish priests know their flock well. We have dinner once a month with the priest who married us, and has moved on to one of the other parishes in the diocese. All are welcome at our church, and most that I know of, but none will ever perform same-sex ceremonies. This doesn't mean that LGBT are not welcome. The United Methodists just held a council and voted against same-sex marriages (performed by the church) and LGBT clergy. But I digress.
I would submit that our CULTURE is a mess (and evidence is everywhere), and there is no reason for any particular religion to bend or conform to the generation of moral relativism. The evil of abuse will linger for years, and I am hopeful that lessons have been learned, and all of the perpetrators and enablers will be rooted out.
As far as your kids...mine are too young, but they will learn why we have a sacramental life, that social ministry and community is important, and that Sunday morning soccer games don't trump the obligation of going to Mass.
Maybe you missed something. Maybe, despite your best efforts, your kids went the way of our materialistic society. Who are they really hurting in not being faithful Catholics, as you are? Sure, the Church will miss their butts in the seats and the C-note once a month, but Christ said, "...unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you cannot have life within you." If they had real faith in God, they'd come for the Word and the sacrament, and could still lobby for whatever changes they seek, or even show their displeasure by choosing not to donate. Walking away completely is the easy road.
FWIW, I'm not opposed to changes to the way the Church operates and how the hierarchy is composed. Opening up the clergy to women priests and married men just seems unrealistic, not addressing any particular problem (with any kind of strong evidence), and knee-jerk.
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Unfortunate that you don't see a problem that women are not allowed to be priests or preach from the pulpit and that priests should be allowed to marry. Making change isn't always about fixing a problem and I'm not sure why it is not realistic. Sometimes it's about righting wrongs, recognizing faithful people and considering the future of the church. Right now the church is on a downward spiral. Attendance is down considerably, donations are down and young adults are not coming to church. There are fewer masses, less clergy and the clergy we have is an average age of well above 60 and with all the press are not projecting as role models. In fact many see them as predators even though most not all of the behavior occurred years ago. The Bishops still covered it up and some do to this day. The majority of our new priests are coming from outside of the US and sometimes in controversial circumstances (you would not believe what is happening in the Paterson Diocese with the new priests they sent from multiple countries - crazier than I can comprehend let alone repeat). Truly glad for your family but I believe it's a big problem and sadly the status quo is winning out and the church will not change anything in our lifetimes.
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On one hand, you say that changes don't always have to address a problem. In the next breath, we need women and married men as priests because the Church is in a spiral. Do you think these changes, if they were to be made, would bring young people back? People are going to give up their Sunday funday and Jets tailgate to hear a woman preach from the pulpit?
The Church has created most of its own problems, but all religions have been on the decline since about 1967. Mass could have an open bar and Uncle Floyd giving the sermons and it wouldn't change the fact that it's not a priority for most people in this age. A wise priest once told me, when I expressed concern about the place of the Church in this culture: "You can only worry about yourself." This priest was a single working man until he got the call at age 35. We recently got a new priest (Immaculate Conception Seminary) who was married NYPD from Brooklyn, has grown kids, and is a widower.
The Church has created most of its own problems, but all religions have been on the decline since about 1967. Mass could have an open bar and Uncle Floyd giving the sermons and it wouldn't change the fact that it's not a priority for most people in this age. A wise priest once told me, when I expressed concern about the place of the Church in this culture: "You can only worry about yourself." This priest was a single working man until he got the call at age 35. We recently got a new priest (Immaculate Conception Seminary) who was married NYPD from Brooklyn, has grown kids, and is a widower.
I was making two different points. One was you need to look long term at the church and where its going and make improvements to reach the younger generation and build the future of the church. The second point was based on its current state saying things are not going so well if you look at the actual trends and are happy with the status quo.
You have young children who haven't turned into adults who are not on their own yet and don't make their own decisions. You haven't lived what I have and the trend I mentioned above is similar for most parents at my stage. I have also been very involved in my church for the last 30 years and have seen the changes and dealt with the hierarchy multiple times. I won't debate you any more because I can see you are not open to it. I will give you some advice though. Be sure you pay attention and keep your eyes open - you will learn a great deal from your kids and their friends as they grow up but only if your eyes are open.
You have young children who haven't turned into adults who are not on their own yet and don't make their own decisions. You haven't lived what I have and the trend I mentioned above is similar for most parents at my stage. I have also been very involved in my church for the last 30 years and have seen the changes and dealt with the hierarchy multiple times. I won't debate you any more because I can see you are not open to it. I will give you some advice though. Be sure you pay attention and keep your eyes open - you will learn a great deal from your kids and their friends as they grow up but only if your eyes are open.
Allowing Priests to marry is a discussion independent of sexual abuse. Other problems within the church are also independent of sexual abuse.
There is no data to support that allowing priests to marry will reduce abuse.
Moreover, while reported abuse has increased, the increase is for abuses that occurred decades ago. The increase is due to the mechanisms that now exist to come forward which did not exist up until recent decades.
In short, the abuse has already been drastically reduced, albeit not completely eliminated.
This is from the CARA study. The John Jay study show a similar trend.
There were 22 reports for abuse that occurred in 2015-2017 in the entire US for the Catholic Church.
In contrast, for Pennsylvania public school teachers had 42 in 2017 alone.
The Church still has a long way to go to make amends for happened 60s, 70s, and 80s.
With respect to abuse that is occurring today, the Church is a lesser problem compared to other sectors and organizations.
There is no data to support that allowing priests to marry will reduce abuse.
Moreover, while reported abuse has increased, the increase is for abuses that occurred decades ago. The increase is due to the mechanisms that now exist to come forward which did not exist up until recent decades.
In short, the abuse has already been drastically reduced, albeit not completely eliminated.
This is from the CARA study. The John Jay study show a similar trend.
There were 22 reports for abuse that occurred in 2015-2017 in the entire US for the Catholic Church.
In contrast, for Pennsylvania public school teachers had 42 in 2017 alone.
The Church still has a long way to go to make amends for happened 60s, 70s, and 80s.
With respect to abuse that is occurring today, the Church is a lesser problem compared to other sectors and organizations.
Simple: Power.
MSU fined a measly $4.5M for 2 decades of cover-up of Larry Nassar.
In the previous $500 legal settlement, 332 victims from 1997-2016, with some estimates of total victims approaching 500.
Nassar was married through 2017.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-hit-michigan-state-hit-record-4-5-million-fine-n1050096
Regarding the other problems with the church Donnie and 112 are making some good points.
Our diocese is also a customer of mine. Part of that includes working with the bishop and the senior leadership, both clerical and lay.
One thing I saw early on is that the church moves at a glacial pace on just about every matter.
There are also two management principles driven from Rome that are close to 2,000 years old. I don't recall the Catholic technical name for them but they essentially say that the church tries to push operating decisions as far down into the parishes as possible.
A simple example is there is no financial reporting on a monthly basis. the diocese has no idea how parishes are functioning financially until they get a final annual report. There is minimal use of consolidated purchasing contracts and other administrative functions.
The same principles apply to the ministry. Monsignors are in essence Lord of the parish and operate autonomously. The Bishop is very careful to pick and choose which battles he wants to fight to influence ministry.
Each each parish does its own thing as long as it does not violate any Canon Law, and other declarations from the Vatican.
My point is that there is no culture or structure to provide a top down approach to address some of the issues that have been discussed. We have roughly 60 parishes in the diocese and they all operate independently. To the best of my knowledge this is the way the entire church runs.
I believe the church is in dire need of some breakthrough thinking. One analogy I like to use is the community bank. Most millennials have never been in a bank. They do their banking online using their cell phone or laptop. There are other disruptive industries with a similar trend such as Airbnb and Uber.
Uber did not eliminate the need for transportation but figured out a way to provide it differently. I believe there will always be a need for spiritual guidance. The church has to figure out an alternate way to deliver it without compromising the fundamental principles of faith.
Our diocese is also a customer of mine. Part of that includes working with the bishop and the senior leadership, both clerical and lay.
One thing I saw early on is that the church moves at a glacial pace on just about every matter.
There are also two management principles driven from Rome that are close to 2,000 years old. I don't recall the Catholic technical name for them but they essentially say that the church tries to push operating decisions as far down into the parishes as possible.
A simple example is there is no financial reporting on a monthly basis. the diocese has no idea how parishes are functioning financially until they get a final annual report. There is minimal use of consolidated purchasing contracts and other administrative functions.
The same principles apply to the ministry. Monsignors are in essence Lord of the parish and operate autonomously. The Bishop is very careful to pick and choose which battles he wants to fight to influence ministry.
Each each parish does its own thing as long as it does not violate any Canon Law, and other declarations from the Vatican.
My point is that there is no culture or structure to provide a top down approach to address some of the issues that have been discussed. We have roughly 60 parishes in the diocese and they all operate independently. To the best of my knowledge this is the way the entire church runs.
I believe the church is in dire need of some breakthrough thinking. One analogy I like to use is the community bank. Most millennials have never been in a bank. They do their banking online using their cell phone or laptop. There are other disruptive industries with a similar trend such as Airbnb and Uber.
Uber did not eliminate the need for transportation but figured out a way to provide it differently. I believe there will always be a need for spiritual guidance. The church has to figure out an alternate way to deliver it without compromising the fundamental principles of faith.
