Governor's Race

[Section112]

I think your points are fair. Your third point is in effect now and has been in effect forcefully since 9/11. I think the first point is what everyone would want. However, reality makes this so difficult. Even building a wall across the entire border does not accomplish much. There are tunnels controlled by the Mexican mafia all through out the border at this point in time. I wish we had some way of securing it. Hopefully, technology will advance to the point this can happen. But it is not reality at this time.

I do not understand why the fourth is an issue. However, it is. People on the right do not even want kids who were brought to this country illegally with no fault of their wont become a citizen. These people are American in culture and in every way but documentation. I know an American couple who brought an infant from Uruguay to the US illegal. They never formally adopted her because they brought her in illegally. When she was 18 she wanted a driver's license and SS number. When she applied, she was caught as someone who entered the country illegally and was facing deportation proceedings. This was at least a decade ago. Thankfully, this was worked out with some legal fiction. These are incredibly difficult issues.

But, the hysteria about sanctuary cities and states is overblown. .

I'm a person on the right and I have always thought you need to have a path to citizenship for the people that are here. In general I don't have a problem with Mexican and spanish speaking immigrants. For the most part they actually respect America and want to work hard here and try to assimilate. Dreamers should be allowed to stay. Bush tried to get this through when he was President and there was this Senator who went out of his way to not let it happen because he thought the Dems should have their name attached to it. His name was Obama. He was not the only one but check the voting record and you will see he voted no and did a lot of work behind the scenes to squash the effort as was published in a WST Journal article recently.

Unfortunately getting things done is our problem because both parties want to take credit for it instead of just getting it done. I'm all for Pirata's points and I'm a conservative. But after offering a path to citizenship we can't keep doing that. It happens once and we tighten things and actually enforce the laws including deporting illegals that break the law which is not happening now at a high enough rate and some places enforce it and others do not.

 

[shu09]

It's pretty clear why the fourth point is an issue. Frankly, I'm appalled that many Americans think it isn't. It's simple. If you emigrate legally, I'm all for it. If you do it illegally, you should be returned to your country of citizenship and get in line with everybody else. Doesn't matter if you're white, brown, black, whatever. Unfortunately, the far left turns this into a racial pissing match to rile people up and get votes when it's not about that at all in actuality. I welcome people of all races, faiths, whatever, as long as they do it legally.

Here's a question for Cern, Bobbie, et al: Why do you want to reward people (with US citizenship of all things!) for breaking the law and entering the country illegally when so many immigrants (yes, brown people too!!) have waited their turn, went through hard times and did it the right way over the course of decades? All this does is cheapen our laws and encourages even more illegal immigration as other potential illegals will look at this and say, the US goes easy on us, we can cut corners and get citizenship easier than ever before.

 

[Merge]

Unfortunately, the far left turns this into a racial pissing match to rile people up and get votes

That comment is why we get in the pissing match. I have known illegal immigrants who live and work in NJ. They have been here 20+ years, have kids and work their ass off. This is not about "votes" for soooo many people. This is about understanding and compassion for people who have been here for many years and would have as much of an idea of what to do in Mexico/ Honduras or wherever as you would. Many of them have been here since childhood and are now over 18 years old.

Here's a question for Cern, Bobbie, et al: Why do you want to reward people (with US citizenship of all things!) for breaking the law and entering the country illegally when so many immigrants (yes, brown people too!!) have waited their turn, went through hard times and did it the right way over the course of decades?

Because we have to. We do not have a better option.
Again, this shouldn't be viewed as a reward but as a recognition. We have millions of people here and we will not be able to round them up and kick them all out. we have to recognize that they are here. Many of them are children, many of them are productive members or society even though we enjoy exploiting them for their cheap labor.

All this does is cheapen our laws and encourages even more illegal immigration

Put the right laws in place then.
Give anyone here today the opportunity to register for a path towards citizenship. Anyone coming in after that date or those who fail to register will face harsher immigration laws currently in place. Build a wall, strengthen borders, any employer hiring an unregistered working will be subject to massive penalties etc.

What encourages illegal immigration is our failure to act.

If you don't offer some kind of path to citizenship, millions of people will remain unregistered and you won't actually fix anything.

 

[cernjSHU]

It's pretty clear why the fourth point is an issue. Frankly, I'm appalled that many Americans think it isn't. It's simple. If you emigrate legally, I'm all for it. If you do it illegally, you should be returned to your country of citizenship and get in line with everybody else. Doesn't matter if you're white, brown, black, whatever. Unfortunately, the far left turns this into a racial pissing match to rile people up and get votes when it's not about that at all in actuality. I welcome people of all races, faiths, whatever, as long as they do it legally.

Here's a question for Cern, Bobbie, et al: Why do you want to reward people (with US citizenship of all things!) for breaking the law and entering the country illegally when so many immigrants (yes, brown people too!!) have waited their turn, went through hard times and did it the right way over the course of decades? All this does is cheapen our laws and encourages even more illegal immigration as other potential illegals will look at this and say, the US goes easy on us, we can cut corners and get citizenship easier than ever before.

I understand this point completely. Now, we are talking about the real issues about immigration. Not the myths and hysteria of sanctuary cities. Quite frankly, there are no easy answers. There must be a balance to discourage illegal immigration with also having illegals already in the country to come out of the shadows and start a pathway to becoming legal. Perhaps, due to overstaying or crossing the borders illegally, there is some sort of penalty of time before legal status as a foreigner is granted. Perhaps their pathway to citizenship is longer. But we must give them some sort of hope to having them contribute and pay their share of taxes and not have them in the shadows.

I will be the first to admit not to have the answers to these difficult questions. But this is where the debate should be in our country. This is where fair minds can differ but come to a compromise which will never be perfect but it should be better than what it is now.

One of the things people don’t talk about is how our economy will suffer without illegals. Restaurants, Contruction, Farming, landscapers are pretty reliant on illegal workers. I am not saying all but a very good percentage do.

 

[HALL85]

Oh I understand. It’s bc a large segment of the people that think it’s issue are racist and just don’t want the brown people here. They know they can’t say that openly, so they hide behind the rule of law & the intricacies of our inmigration law, but we all know the real reason. Not saying it’s everyone, but it’s def a major part. That’s why Trump took hold of it as his core issue, bc he needed that sort of identity politics to play for him to gain traction in the primaries.

Accusing Trump of playing identity politics....now that's precious.

 

[Section112]

Put the right laws in place then.
Give anyone here today the opportunity to register for a path towards citizenship. Anyone coming in after that date or those who fail to register will face harsher immigration laws currently in place. Build a wall, strengthen borders, any employer hiring an unregistered working will be subject to massive penalties etc.

What encourages illegal immigration is our failure to act.

You just said a mouthful. Many of the right laws are in fact in place. The problem is some states cities etc enforce the law and some decide not to and there is no penalty for those states and cities and there should be. That is in fact the failure to act you speak of.

I agree that folks that have been here for some time need some sort of path to citizenship even if it rewards the wrong behavior. But it should only happen once and then move on and enforce the laws and stop with its racist to enforce the laws.

 

[Pirata]

I think your points are fair.

Just quoting that to acknowledge that you said that before I commend on a point you made. Thanks.

People on the right do not even want kids who were brought to this country illegally with no fault of their wont become a citizen.

I think that is too broad a broad brush. Some people on the right, yes but to imply "all" goes to far. It depends on the situation. I'll comment on your example below. My experience is that most people have compassion for the innocent child.

I know an American couple who brought an infant from Uruguay to the US illegal. They never formally adopted her because they brought her in illegally. When she was 18 she wanted a driver's license and SS number. When she applied, she was caught as someone who entered the country illegally and was facing deportation proceedings. This was at least a decade ago. Thankfully, this was worked out with some legal fiction. These are incredibly difficult issues.

Yes, it is a difficult situation. Not knowing the specifics, my initial reaction would be to let the kid stay, and assuming she was law abiding, give a path to citizenship.

However, I'd take a hard look at fines for the parents. Again, I don't know the situation. Refugee? Medical? Abused kid?

In principle, I would not want to set an easy precedent that your can smuggle a child in without consequence. It would set up some problematic issue with regard to trafficking,etc.

My leaning is case by case with guidelines and precedence for those that are here with a sincere and legitimate option to stay given the right conditions.

Going forward, I would want to see consequences for the adults that do it. The consequences should not be one size fits all. I come back to violations, misdemeanors, and felonies.

 

[Merge]

You just said a mouthful. Many of the right laws are in fact in place. The problem is some states cities etc enforce the law and some decide not to and there is no penalty for those states and cities and there should be. That is in fact the failure to act you speak of.

That is a fair point, but in my honest opinion I do not believe politicians want to solve the problem because it will hurt our economy to not exploit these workers.
Our failure of action in my opinion is solving this problem of illegal imigration realistically.

We could solve the problem very quickly with a massive penalty on anyone employing an illegal immigrant.If there is no one willing to risk those penalties, then there will be no jobs and they will stop coming here.

 

[Pirata]

If you do it illegally, you should be returned to your country of citizenship and get in line with everybody else.

IMO, that is one size fits all. I don't think it is reasonable to do that.

To say "anyone who comes here illegally must be returned" or to say "anyone who comes here illegally can stay" is an extreme.

I prefer to hear that anyone who comes here illegally must be identified and subjected to a legal process with varied outcomes depending on the circumstances.

Those options, include deportation, prison, fines, green card, citizenship, etc.

 

[Pirata]

Why do you want to reward people (with US citizenship of all things!) for breaking the law and entering the country illegally when so many immigrants (yes, brown people too!!) have waited their turn, went through hard times and did it the right way over the course of decades? All this does is cheapen our laws and encourages even more illegal immigration as other potential illegals will look at this and say, the US goes easy on us, we can cut corners and get citizenship easier than ever before.

I agree

 

[Pirata]

Put the right laws in place then.
Give anyone here today the opportunity to register for a path towards citizenship. Anyone coming in after that date or those who fail to register will face harsher immigration laws currently in place. Build a wall, strengthen borders, any employer hiring an unregistered working will be subject to massive penalties etc.

What encourages illegal immigration is our failure to act.

If you don't offer some kind of path to citizenship, millions of people will remain unregistered and you won't actually fix anything.

Yep. Especially the first sentence.

 

[Pirata]

One of the things people don’t talk about is how our economy will suffer without illegals. Restaurants, Contruction, Farming, landscapers are pretty reliant on illegal workers. I am not saying all but a very good percentage do.

Cern, I put a "Like" on the overall post that the above came from.

With regard to the labor issue, I will come back to Jeb's remarks last night.

He said a vibrant immigration policy is needed to sustaining a decent GDP growth. He added though that the policies should be bringing in labor of the future, not manual labor.

I don't think we should bring in cheap labor to support jobs that can and should be automated. Some jobs cannot be automated, I get that. However, I'd rather let free market forces drive decisions to automation.

Example. If I have an apple orchard, I rather we not let cheap illegal labor support an economic decision to not invest in an automated picker (They exist).

I also have a hard time with looking the other way and allowing the working conditions that illegals are subject to. They get exploited because they are powerless. Let the chips fall where they may on the price of goods and services.