If there's a Dance next season this should be interesting
- Thread starter Halldan1
- Start date
Would love to see the NCAA pull it, but I doubt they have the guts to do so.
Safety for student athletes and ticket holders
But I thought the police there had to be defunded and dismantled because they were inherently corrupt?
If there's no police force, would you want a massive event staged there?
I had a reply to this that i presume the moderator halldan took down because he felt it was aggresive and strong but it only was a mimic of the stoking the politcal flames agenda that another poster recently posted in a thread on LOTS.
I don’t see how you can have an event of that magnitude if the police force as we know it is dismantled as some MN politicians appear to desire. Much of that is likely political pandering I’m sure. Because who honestly believes that. If it is all about simply demilitarizing then police to a degree and enacting systematic restructuring to change some tactics that are plainly wrong, that’s another issue entirely.
I took it down because it was too politically aggressive for this particular board. That and your response to the original poster would have taken this thread to a place i don't want it to go.
I usually agree, but right now, who knows what anyone is thinking? It's all extreme viewpoints banging into each other.
True that. I know the Mayor got destroyed onstage for not saying outright he would defund the police. I interpret that to mean certain folks want the police as we know it dismantled entirely. Which I just don’t get for a million reasons.
Much of what I'm reading about the subject (not necessarily here) seems to be an emotional reaction rather than a well thought out process.
While I think police reform is probably necessary (the MPD has been involved in several incidents in recent years), defunding is certainly not the answer. I don't see how this serves any real purpose.
While I think police reform is probably necessary (the MPD has been involved in several incidents in recent years), defunding is certainly not the answer. I don't see how this serves any real purpose.
Hey man. I can break it down a little bit more specifically what we mean by "defund":
NYPD's budget is over $6 Billion, with around 36,000 cops. Meanwhile, the public university system with over 500,000 students, about 275,000 of which are seeking a degree, spread over 25 campuses that are largely minority-serving, has a budget of about half that. At the end of the month, nearly all part-time university staff will be let go as they did not renew their contracts, some campuses cut fall classes by 25%, etc. One campus has had floors of the library closed off for years because they can't get the bedbugs under control.
Education is one of the wisest investments that the public can make and every dollar invested returns several times over. I would argue the same for the public health sector, social services & mental health to a smaller degree. Yet all 4 of these areas have been slashed repeatedly through the years in many, many parts of the country, not just NYC. Yet the police state continually gets their budgets increased, gets military toys they shouldn't have, and come out during peaceful protests looking like friggin Robocop.
When we say "defund", we mean cut their budgets that are way too high, cut actual cops in areas where there are too many, like NYC. Do we really need them standing sentry at every major public place/tran station et al? Do we need SIX of them standing at the Holland Tunnel exit bullshitting w/each other? No, we don't. It's frankly disturbing to see them everywhere. So make police budget cuts, and divert that $ to other areas that serve the public far better than growing a corrupt standing army.
When police departments are defunded:
Caller: Help! Someone is breaking into my house!
911 Operator: Stay calm sir. We are sending our thoughts and prayers right now.
See, no need to worry!
If you think these cities have problems now just defund the police and this will look like tea with the queen!
NCAA would have to pull out from any location that does not have a sworn police department! You can’t risk everyone’s safety.
Caller: Help! Someone is breaking into my house!
911 Operator: Stay calm sir. We are sending our thoughts and prayers right now.
See, no need to worry!
If you think these cities have problems now just defund the police and this will look like tea with the queen!
NCAA would have to pull out from any location that does not have a sworn police department! You can’t risk everyone’s safety.
NYC is probably a bad example because there is no where else with near similar security concerns/expenses/issues.
If people want to debate police budgets in big cities, there are probably many other cities that would be better examples for either side in the discussion.
If people want to debate police budgets in big cities, there are probably many other cities that would be better examples for either side in the discussion.
Any coincidence we haven’t had any terrorist attacks in NYC because of the police bullshitting?
When you talk about schools’ budgets are you talking about budget spend or what amount the state sends to schools?
The headline of this thread is ridiculous "If theres a Dance next season"...give me a break. There will be a dance next season
And the next time there is a terrorist attack in NYC - and there will be one of some kind - what will people point to if lack of funding or restructuring results in a decrease of officers on patrol or with a presence in various parts of the city.
I’m comforted when I see a police presence at the bridges or tunnels, as someone who pre-COVID drove through at least one of them daily.
The most important point is “this is NOT a binary review, NOT a binary decision, NOT a binary implementation.”
First of all I appreciate your response. More well-thought out than knee-jerk.
I think this may be part of the answer but it's obviously not that simple. The word "defund" sends the wrong message, IMHO. Those with an agenda will co-opt the word to fit their view because they'll take the extreme position that liberals want to do away with policing (you can see it in the responses in this thread). I still think reform is a better term and from my perspective more in line with what is needed.
I'd disagree that we don't need a large and visible police presence in NYC. As someone who has commuted to NYC daily for most of 30 years, I'd rather that than not. I do think events of recent years and anecdotal evidence from people I know indicate a reform, re-educating and re-training of police warrants a serious review. I say that recognizing that a police officer's job is perilous and their lives are in danger at a moment's notice. We should be grateful for the great majority that honor us with their service.
I'd agree that education is one of the wisest investments that we can make and more does need to be done. People smarter than I will have to figure out a way to accomplish that in a way that makes sense, keeps us safe and doesn't strip our already thin wallets even further..
I’m sorry but anyone who thinks defunding the police is a good idea, especially in NYC, is wrong. Like you said, what happens if there is a terrorist attack!? With DeBlaisio in charge the terrorists will be licking their chops!
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
We could replace them with people who only give out hugs....that will stop criminals.
One of the Minneapolis council members actually said the police responding to a breakin at your house is a sign of your privilege Lol. We're so screwed as a country with these loons running things
It is views like these that take away from the legitimate points. Yes, certain police departments have bad apples, like any other profession, except their bad apples carry weapons and can do more harm than most. Systemically every effort should be made to weed out any such individuals and prosecute them, with due process considerations we all have as citizens. “Covering up” for a colleague who wears the same uniform but does something prosecutable should not be condoned. Likewise racist tactics should not be condoned. And I can buy into demilitarizing the police some as well, at least in certain areas where you don’t need paramilitary capabilities on hand (I would argue in big cities you likely do, although I’m no expert on the options).
All of these issues, which I think are ripe for legitimate discussion, gets obscured by insane proposals to defund the people who protect us and do far more good than harm. Or by people using legitimate protest as a shield to engage in anarchistic, unruly and illegal behavior which has happened far too much and has not been condemned as forcefully as it should be.
The "defund movement" is silly if "defund" is really what they want. It's a word being used to rally the troops but the word does not do any justice to what some are proposing.
A more appropriate word needs to be used but its not as much fun for the folks protesting. Reforms would be better or a deeper look at how budgeted dollars are being allocated and is there a better way to use those dollars. But defund the NYC dept? We had this little terror attack in 2001 if you recall. It totally changed our way of life and if any city needs money to spend to protect its citizens and protect it against terror it is NYC.
I go into NYC a lot and since DeBlasio has become the mayor the city does not feel as safe to me at all (one man's opinion). The Minneapolis police dept is run by an African American police chief who obviously did not do enough to root out bad cops. Why don't we put some money towards an investigation as to why that was? Did it take too long for reforms to be made? Was it the culture of cops not outing bad cops? Was it the union sticking up for bad/racist cops? Was it the prior investigations where they didn't go through with charges against this particular cop who so callously killed Mr. Floyd?
He had multiple complaints against him did he know someone that was protecting him? I don't know but it seems there is something seriously wrong with this department and we can learn from it and that may be true of other departments. Seems to me we need more money to figure it out vs. less.
The answer is not to throw the baby out with the bath water either. Many police organizations have already made significant changes for the good (if you check out the WSJ article published about a week ago) cited by multiple articles where police shootings of unarmed African Americans is in fact significantly down since 2015. Facts. Let's keep those positives, recognize there is still a big problem and improve where needed to root this out. But let's also keep good reforms that are working. Keep the progress and let's make some more too so this does not keep happening.
A more appropriate word needs to be used but its not as much fun for the folks protesting. Reforms would be better or a deeper look at how budgeted dollars are being allocated and is there a better way to use those dollars. But defund the NYC dept? We had this little terror attack in 2001 if you recall. It totally changed our way of life and if any city needs money to spend to protect its citizens and protect it against terror it is NYC.
I go into NYC a lot and since DeBlasio has become the mayor the city does not feel as safe to me at all (one man's opinion). The Minneapolis police dept is run by an African American police chief who obviously did not do enough to root out bad cops. Why don't we put some money towards an investigation as to why that was? Did it take too long for reforms to be made? Was it the culture of cops not outing bad cops? Was it the union sticking up for bad/racist cops? Was it the prior investigations where they didn't go through with charges against this particular cop who so callously killed Mr. Floyd?
He had multiple complaints against him did he know someone that was protecting him? I don't know but it seems there is something seriously wrong with this department and we can learn from it and that may be true of other departments. Seems to me we need more money to figure it out vs. less.
The answer is not to throw the baby out with the bath water either. Many police organizations have already made significant changes for the good (if you check out the WSJ article published about a week ago) cited by multiple articles where police shootings of unarmed African Americans is in fact significantly down since 2015. Facts. Let's keep those positives, recognize there is still a big problem and improve where needed to root this out. But let's also keep good reforms that are working. Keep the progress and let's make some more too so this does not keep happening.
This story came across my radar this morning. It's about the aftermath of Camden, NJ disbanding its police department because of rampant corruption.
To be clear, based on the story, Camden has a visible police presence and I'm sure nobody will regard it as the safest place on earth but the measures the city has taken seem to have had an impact. It's also apparent more needs to be done but crime is down significantly.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html
To be clear, based on the story, Camden has a visible police presence and I'm sure nobody will regard it as the safest place on earth but the measures the city has taken seem to have had an impact. It's also apparent more needs to be done but crime is down significantly.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html
Someone posted another article about the changes in Camden earlier this week, which did not have the "spin" of this one (Ill leave the criticism of CNN right here for the time being.).
I am pretty familiar with Camden and what happened there. The city police department was a mess and needed to be reformed. What they did was have the Camden County police take responsibility for policing the city which was a wise move. The actual data suggests that it's too soon to judge the success when you look at all crime statistics. For instance homicides are down, but assaults are up over the past three years. One of the theories is that homicides are down because police are now able to transport victims in their squad car rather than wait for EMS. A good think because lives are saved, but the underlying crime is still bad. You can't blame police on that because it's more of a function of the community, education, etc.
I remember when this happened, was interesting story.
As for crime numbers improving, I have not looked it up, but I believe crime and homicides across the country have decreased in last 10 years, for numerous reasons, including the overall economy improvement & low unemployment until recently.
Also, in recent years I believe there has been a good amount of redevelopment in Camden, even moving further away from the waterfront. With closeness to Philly, and the high cost and desire to live near the city by many, this has led to new developments that have attracted new residents & new businesses. Lots of incentives are available for developers, no different then housing boom that is happening in downtown Newark recently.
So just not sure switching the police officers alone is what led to the crime drop.
Good points. In addition, the city has done a good job of systematically razing the burned out and abandoned buildings. There are blocks of empty lots now where blighted building stood which were a convenient place for junkies to camp out.
Of course. You're a friend, not some Rivals red-pilled boomer whose idyllic worldview is being disrupted by the riff raff.
The use of the term "defund" is to simplify, and grab more attention to the issues with the police state. Yes it's a bit inflammatory, but we've been talking about police reform my entire life & things are not getting better in enough places & not at the pace they need to. And the budgets for some of these forces are just completely out of control, even if good things are happening with reform.
I think the wording works just fine. If you're talking to someone who's willing to take the time to look at what's being asked for, it's a clear & simple way to summarize what you're asking for. It also shifts the conversation away from something divisive to something nuanced & explainable, if you're dealing with someone rational. If you're aiming for something that Fox News can't twist to be presented as something else, then you're hunting unicorns.
If you're looking for more specifics, this has been making the rounds for a minute now:
But the asks above require alot of time & a major shift at almost every level of goverment, right? Gonna take some time to even make any headway around the margins there. How about what cna be done right now, immediately? Another simple infographic you might have seen recently as well:
Now I don't know where they got 72%, but those actions certainly seem reasonable & relatively easy to install. They seem worth if if they would reduce police violence 1%. It might require the police state from having to stop training their people w/friggin IDF paramilitary tactics though ::shudder::
https://fpif.org/why-we-should-be-alarmed-that-israeli-forces-and-u-s-police-are-training-together/
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/15...aining-adl-human-rights-abuses-dc-washington/
As far as the large NYC police presence, is 36,000 not large enough? Is this the number you're good with, or should we go even higher? When do we stop? When does the budget ever stop increasing? Could we maybe get away with less? Can we try? It's been TWENTY years since 9/11. How long are we supposed to continue to piss away all our budgets bc of fear of some amorphous blob of scary foreign brown people? I thought intelligence was what was gonna keep us safe? So those budgets have skyrocketed too. But we also need buncha people standing around at every major landmark & gathering place in the city almost all the time, watching us?
You're cool with cops searching random peoples bags as they enter a train station? With a Nat'l Guard guy behind them sometimes with a friggin AK? I'm not. I want to be left alone. I prefer to NOT have to be reminded of how much our country has a hard-on for militarization every day.
We need Times Square on NYE to be locked down like a fortress? Every year they brag about how more cops will be out than the year prior. Whats the limit, when we have all 36,000 cops getting paid overtime to stand around Midtown?
Rant over. See you at the next bowling night dude.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Great point, and those who lived in Camden have now went to Bridgeton, Vineland, Salem, etc.
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anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Of course. You're a friend, not some Rivals red-pilled boomer whose idyllic worldview is being disrupted by the riff raff.
The use of the term "defund" is to simplify, and grab more attention to the issues with the police state. Yes it's a bit inflammatory, but we've been talking about police reform my entire life & things are not getting better in enough places & not at the pace they need to. And the budgets for some of these forces are just completely out of control, even if good things are happening with reform.
I think the wording works just fine. If you're talking to someone who's willing to take the time to look at what's being asked for, it's a clear & simple way to summarize what you're asking for. It also shifts the conversation away from something divisive to something nuanced & explainable, if you're dealing with someone rational. If you're aiming for something that Fox News can't twist to be presented as something else, then you're hunting unicorns.
If you're looking for more specifics, this has been making the rounds for a minute now:
But the asks above require alot of time & a major shift at almost every level of goverment, right? Gonna take some time to even make any headway around the margins there. How about what cna be done right now, immediately? Another simple infographic you might have seen recently as well:
Now I don't know where they got 72%, but those actions certainly seem reasonable & relatively easy to install. They seem worth if if they would reduce police violence 1%. It might require the police state from having to stop training their people w/friggin IDF paramilitary tactics though ::shudder::
https://fpif.org/why-we-should-be-alarmed-that-israeli-forces-and-u-s-police-are-training-together/
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/15...aining-adl-human-rights-abuses-dc-washington/
As far as the large NYC police presence, is 36,000 not large enough? Is this the number you're good with, or should we go even higher? When do we stop? When does the budget ever stop increasing? Could we maybe get away with less? Can we try? It's been TWENTY years since 9/11. How long are we supposed to continue to piss away all our budgets bc of fear of some amorphous blob of scary foreign brown people? I thought intelligence was what was gonna keep us safe? So those budgets have skyrocketed too. But we also need buncha people standing around at every major landmark & gathering place in the city almost all the time, watching us?
You're cool with cops searching random peoples bags as they enter a train station? With a Nat'l Guard guy behind them sometimes with a friggin AK? I'm not. I want to be left alone. I prefer to NOT have to be reminded of how much our country has a hard-on for militarization every day.
We need Times Square on NYE to be locked down like a fortress? Every year they brag about how more cops will be out than the year prior. Whats the limit, when we have all 36,000 cops getting paid overtime to stand around Midtown?
Rant over. See you at the next bowling night dude.
People are being fired for their thoughts, but it's over the line if the police can stop and search someone to protect the greater good? We're going to ban anything that doesn't fall in line with BLM growing demands (including bowing to them as if they're some idol we need to worship WHAT is that), but god forbid a cop stops me when I'm doing something suspicious. I've never had an issue with an officer and I've been pulled over many times, they're doing their job. You say Yes sir, no sir, they do their job and we go on our way. Maybe you're hiding something if you are so fearful of someone searching your stuff.
The same people that have been touting the BLM movement on social media 24-7 are now pissed off that Cops and Live PD are canceled. Maybe people won't be such sheep like Bobbie once their favorite stuff gets taken away.
This entire issue has the same feel of gun control. An event has said off protests; the issue has been highly politicized; and there is very little agreement about what the problem is and how to solve it. And as usual, the voices of extreme views are taking all of the air out of the room.
My sense is that we will be sitting here a year from now with very few material changes. if any, having occurred.
My sense is that we will be sitting here a year from now with very few material changes. if any, having occurred.
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