Is it time for Israel to harness itself?
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/p...ty-president-here-s-what-happened/ar-BB1m5fZb
Princeton…lol. More anti-Semitism.
“The president and deans listened to the protesters' demands, which included complete divestment and dissociation from the U.S. military and the state of Israel," Morrill said.
"They also demanded the university sever all ties with Israeli academic and cultural institutions. President Eisgruber explained that at Princeton, divestment is rare and ... also requires a formal determination that campus consensus is possible on the issue," she said.
Princeton…lol. More anti-Semitism.
“The president and deans listened to the protesters' demands, which included complete divestment and dissociation from the U.S. military and the state of Israel," Morrill said.
"They also demanded the university sever all ties with Israeli academic and cultural institutions. President Eisgruber explained that at Princeton, divestment is rare and ... also requires a formal determination that campus consensus is possible on the issue," she said.
A general estimate, yes. If you look into it, you’d see that your statement was likely not correct which gets to why Israel’s attacks are viewed as indiscriminate.
The US was criticized for civilian casualties in the Middle East, and the pace of Palestinian civilian deaths appears to be higher than the US conflicts.
Those who view Israeli attacks as indiscriminate, refuse to acknowledge that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. Shouldn’t Hamas ultimately be held accountable for 1) being a terrorist organization that slaughtered innocent Israeli’s and 2) Using their citizens essentially as hostages in a war they provoked?
And when it comes to us taking a stance let’s not forget that there was Hiroshima and Nagasaki too.
This isn't antisemitism. I read the whole article and there's no antisemitism in there at all, what are you talking about?
When you dictate that the university sever all ties and eliminate any programs? Yeah, let’s ignore Israel and Jews ever existed….
Why just first six months? If the war in Gaza only lasts one year versus eight doesn’t that limit civilian casualties?
“During the War in Afghanistan, according to the Costs of War Project the war killed 176,000 people in Afghanistan: 46,319 civilians, 69,095 military and police and at least 52,893 opposition fighters. However, the death toll is possibly higher due to unaccounted deaths by "disease, loss of access to food, water, infrastructure, and/or other indirect consequences of the war."[1]According to the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, the conflict killed 212,191 people.[2]The Cost of War project estimated in 2015 that the number who have died through indirect causes related to the war may be as high as 360,000 additional people based on a ratio of indirect to direct deaths in contemporary conflicts.[3]”
Would it make you racist if you dictate a university sever all ties and eliminate any programs related to BLM and affirmative action?
I'd say no....why the double standard to sever all ties to Israel for a university?
Because we only have 6 months of data so far, and the rate of which people were killed is all we have to compare. It’s the reason why people are criticizing Israel now.
We could have had the same conversation after 1 month, 2 months, 3 months etc…. The rate in which Palestinian civilians are being killed is higher that’s the US conflicts.
And do you believe other terrorist groups did not use human shields? They did as well.
If a university President stated that they would no longer acknowledge Black History Month, tell me how that would go? It would be wrong, just like this.
https://6abc.com/post/university-of...a-police-pro-palestine-protest-penn/14793239/
Applaud Governor Shapiro for taking a stand.
Applaud Governor Shapiro for taking a stand.
Now it’s the “rate” of killing that matters? Well then Hiroshima is by far the worst. What was the “rate” of killing on October 7?
Other terrorist groups use innocents as protection too. Due to the population density in Gaza the exposure is much greater. Why is Hamas not held accountable for putting innocents in harms way?
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You're not making any distinction between Jewish people and the country of Israel. Has it ever occurred to you that not all Jewish people agree with the government of Israel's policies? That there are in fact Jewish people who are participating in protests both on college campuses and in Israel?
Assuming all Jews are a monolith that blindly support Israel and their policies? I wish there was a word for this sort of prejudice.
I'm still looking for all this rampant antisemitism everyone keeps talking about, but I've come to expect this sort of deliberately dense take from the "I won't contribute to NIL" guy.
That’s a silly argument as no one in a particular group agrees 100% with a policy or stance.
No, you just keep ignoring the examples.
Of course the rate matters. Why would you compare a war that went on for 20 years to one that has been going on for months? And of course Hiroshima was worse.
The point is that a lot of civilians are being killed now, and the question is if Israel is doing enough to minimize the number of civilian casualties. What is the plan for the people displaced? Is Israel planning a permanent occupation of Gaza?
again, israel was right to respond, but that doesn’t make them infallible in their response.
I wouldn't spend a penny on that. Not sure what that has to do with you sympathizing with terrorists.
I have yet to see any report refer to the “rate” of death. And even if it did matter, why not respond to the rate on October 7?
What is Hamas doing to minimize loss of life? Their acts are increasing the risk of death.
Is it as silly with equating BDS with ignoring that "...Jews ever existed?"
What examples? I was shown a video from a right-wing Twitter account of someone deliberately trying and failing to elicit a response from the UCLA protesters, and then I showed an example of pro-Israel protesters shooting fireworks into the same UCLA encampment and attacking the pro-Palestinian protesters.
You noted the developments at the UPenn encampment - no antisemitism in there either. But this happened earlier this month:
The pro-Palestinian encampment at Penn has become a game of cat and mouse between protesters and administrators
Penn administration was mum about its plans for handling the encampment, which has remained at about 60 members since last week, or whether it had set a deadline for the camp to come down.
www.inquirer.com
"The university also has been worried about the potential for outsiders to cause safety risks, which was elevated again on Wednesday. A man wearing a green polo shirt and black pants sprayed tents in the encampment with liquid from a pesticide can. Officers with Penn’s Department of Public Safety said the man was not affiliated with the university. Officers are testing the substance and asked encampment members to avoid the area where the liquid was sprayed.
Earlier in the week, a 70-year-old man wearing a large knife in his belt came to a Passover Seder held at the encampment. The man, who was not affiliated with the encampment or protest, was charged with having cutting instruments in streets or public places."
Detached from reality. Keep calling me a terrorist sympathizer if it makes you feel better.
Are you just going to ignore the fact that Hamas accepted the ceasefire terms and Israel decided to reject it and then invade Rafah?
There's a good reason why you haven't seen reports on the rate of death. "Gaza’s Palestinian health authorities say they can no longer count all their dead. Hospitals, emergency services and communications are barely functioning. Extracting bodies from the vast number of collapsed buildings is a gargantuan task and not a priority while the war continues."
What's with the invocation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is this supposed to be some sort of gotcha that whatever happens in the Gaza strip, it's nothing compared to us dropping nukes on Japan? I don't get the point, but I'm of the opinion that, much like the US continuing to vocally and materially support Israel's massacre in Gaza, bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was militarily unnecessary and morally despicable.
There has been plenty of reporting on this topic. For example.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. They want chaos and propaganda to create more hatred and the next generation of terrorists.
Israel was attacked and had to respond. There will of course be civilian casualties in any war but I’m not convinced Israel cares much about the civilian casualties. I’m also not convinced Israel plans to ever leave Gaza. If the number of civilian deaths keeps rising, and Israel plans to stay in Gaza, Israel will be giving Hamas what they want which is to broaden the conflict.
If the conflict ends in the next couple of months then the rate of death as I said before is meaningless. You can argue taking swift action will prevent a multi year war with many more casualties.
Yes, and that’s my point. They are doing more damage to innocent Palestinians than Israel. The civilian casualties would be minimal if Hamas didn’t hide behind them or provided/enabled aid to get to them.
“I’m not convinced” is a feeling. You are also discounting the hostages. There is a timing issue to be able to get them returned. A more deliberate response lengthens their time in captivity and risk of survival. It also sickens me that we still have U.S. hostages.
Article on this topic in WSJ yesterday
It’s exactly the point though which is why Israel’s attacks are being viewed as “indiscriminate”. If this war goes on for another couple months, Israel is going to be responsible for more civilian deaths than the US in Afghanistan… over 20 years.
And like I said, Israel not offering a plan for post war Gaza which includes Palestinian’s returning only hurts the perception against Israel.
Again, Hamas is not the only group to hide being civilians and Israel appears to be less concerned with that than other countries have been in other conflicts.
Yes, of course it is a feeling. You feel fine about the steps Israel has taken. Others don’t share your view.
You’re extrapolating numbers linearly though. If the war continued for 4-5 years even with what you are suggesting (more deliberately), I can make the claim that the casualties will be much worse than Afghanistan. We both don’t know.
They are in a war to eliminate Hamas and get the hostages back. A post war plan, which they will need to have, has no bearing on the current war and casualties.
“Appears”…your opinion. Hamas is causing more casualties because it is a highly concentrated population. What was Israel supposed to do when they first identified the hospital that Hamas was hiding (and actually bombed themselves)?
I don’t feel “fine”. I believe Hamas deserves the vast majority of blame because 1) they initiated the war with a horrific civilian slaughter and 2) their military tactics are knowingly putting Palestinians in harms way.
Doesn't have anything to do with how I feel, just stating a fact. You've proven it time and time again.
How do you tell the difference between Hamas fighters and civillans The fighters hide behind civilians like girly men and want to exaggerate number of civilians killed.What percent of Gaza Strip population wants to destroy Israel? 80 ? 90 ? Hamas steals the food to feed their fighters and the ignorant population mostly supports them.Comparing to bombs in WW2 Israel looks like choir boys.
I think what Blinken stated was right on the money. Release all the hostages and you have you a cease fire. The carnage of Palestinians dying is in the hands of Hamas.
I don’t think it gets much clearer or more simple than that.
apnews.com
I don’t think it gets much clearer or more simple than that.
Blinken presses Hamas to seal cease-fire with Israel, says 'the time is now' for a deal
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has met with Israeli leaders in his push for a cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas to impress on them that “the time is now" for an agreement that would free hostages and bring a pause in the nearly seven months of war.
apnews.com
I don't think this is clear or simple. Israel isn't agreeing to a ceasefire. It says in that link that Netanyahu is going into Rafah with or without a deal.
Blinken was also critical today of any plan going into Rafah because Israel does not have a way to protect innocent civilians and he was also critical of Israel's attacks to data in Gaza because they have appeared to violate international humanitarian law.
I agree Hamas needs to release the hostages, but that is not going to be the end of the conflict.
Hamas also needs to unconditionally surrender. Seems nobody ever asks for that.
Well that’s not realistic at all. Netanyahu is a serious problem for negotiations. He has a vested interest to keeping this going since he has to answer for why did it take Israel 8- q
10 hours to respond to the Oct 7. Why did he prop up Hamas? I differentiate between Israel and Netanyahu who need to be removed and sent to prison.
But Israel implementing a ceasefire even with the hostages released is? While Hamas regroups, already happening in northern Gaza.
Hamas needs to surrender or be destroyed.
Yes it is. Cease fire for release of your hostages seems right. You may get rid of the leadership of Hamas but that organization will live on in some form or another. It is up to the Palestinian people to reject Hamas in present day or the near future to have any effect. IDF will never be able to stamp it out by extermination.
I think the priority is to get your citizens out safely is if the utmost importance.
My political beliefs lean strongly to the right. However, there is no question in my mind that Israel is committing war crimes by indiscriminately killing innocent women and children. It's got to stop. What Hamas did on 10/7 was also an unjustified war crime, but two wrongs do not make a right.
I think that the U.S. dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a bad example of a war crime. The dropping of those bombs were designed to end the war. Towards the end of WWII, the Japanese's strategy was to kill and maim as many US combatants as possible to convince the US to negotiate a Japanese surrender. High US casualty numbers caused by Kamikaze attacks, Iwo Jima, and Okinowa are perfect examples of this strategy. An invasion of Japan would have cost the US several hundred thousand casualties and deaths. It also would have cost over a million of Japanese lives as well, including many civilians.
I think that the U.S. dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a bad example of a war crime. The dropping of those bombs were designed to end the war. Towards the end of WWII, the Japanese's strategy was to kill and maim as many US combatants as possible to convince the US to negotiate a Japanese surrender. High US casualty numbers caused by Kamikaze attacks, Iwo Jima, and Okinowa are perfect examples of this strategy. An invasion of Japan would have cost the US several hundred thousand casualties and deaths. It also would have cost over a million of Japanese lives as well, including many civilians.
You think they are "indiscriminately killing innocent women and children" ? Like they are targeting them? C'mon, that's malarkey.
Hamas could be destroyed if we only let them destroy them.
The Palestinian people DON'T reject Hamas, that is the problem so Israel has to eradicate Hamas..
When you drop 2,000 lb bombs on civilian occupied buildings you are in fact indiscriminately killing women and children.
To be fair the supposed 30,000 includes combatants and civilians. The Palestinian Health Ministry does not distinguish. I don’t favor indiscriminate bombing but Hamas had been hiding amongst civilians and Israel has issued warnings along the way.
