Not just a Seton Hall thing

[lloyde dobler]

Take a look at the Rutgers board…. The threads are very similar to the ones here. And Providence fans weren’t exactly taking a 27-point home halftime deficit in stride against Marquette. There are similar examples all around the country.

Don’t get me wrong…. I’m not giving SHU a pass. They have no one but themselves to blame on many levels for creating a horrible situation. It’s just that SHU is not alone, and unlike what others have posted, is not the laughingstock of college basketball.

As soon as this NIL stuff started, my immediate thought of how this would shake out when teams had bad seasons. Everyone can spend money, but someone still has to lose each game. I still have no idea how it will shake out across the country.

As far as SHU goes, it’s important to remember that it’s far from alone on the NCAA landscape. But my fear is that the school never asserts itself on any level. It is a follower. The marketing slogan “Where leaders lead” or whatever it was, is kind of a joke. I’m not pleased by what’s going on with the season now, but the real concern should be on how the administration responds, not by the results now. It’s too late for that part. SHU is not the laughingstock of the sport, but needs a plan to go forward. Can it? Hopefully so.

 

[dehere23]

Take a look at the Rutgers board…. The threads are very similar to the ones here. And Providence fans weren’t exactly taking a 27-point home halftime deficit in stride against Marquette. There are similar examples all around the country.

Don’t get me wrong…. I’m not giving SHU a pass. They have no one but themselves to blame on many levels for creating a horrible situation. It’s just that SHU is not alone, and unlike what others have posted, is not the laughingstock of college basketball.

As soon as this NIL stuff started, my immediate thought of how this would shake out when teams had bad seasons. Everyone can spend money, but someone still has to lose each game. I still have no idea how it will shake out across the country.

As far as SHU goes, it’s important to remember that it’s far from alone on the NCAA landscape. But my fear is that the school never asserts itself on any level. It is a follower. The marketing slogan “Where leaders lead” or whatever it was, is kind of a joke. I’m not pleased by what’s going on with the season now, but the real concern should be on how the administration responds, not by the results now. It’s too late for that part. SHU is not the laughingstock of the sport, but needs a plan to go forward. Can it? Hopefully so.

Hoping this year to date is an anomaly.

There will always be winners and losers in free agency, no different than what their was when more traditional recruiting was the norm.

Anyone who thinks we are the laughingstock of college basketball is wrong IMO. This is one of those times when it’s an advantage to be Seton Hall. We get little coverage locally when we are good, forget about nationally. When we aren’t good, we aren’t on anyone’s radar. We have a smaller die hard fan base. Our ability to capture the large swath of more casual NJ sports fans who are diehards for pro teams but don’t really have a college program to root for is an uphill climb even when we are good. In other words, in a year like this, I don’t think many are paying attention beyond our boards and diehards.

In this era, there will always be hits and misses with annual roster turnover. To me, player evaluation, the ability to “coach up” kids, and the ability to retain players by selling them on your ability to develop them is more important than ever.

 

[Hall Is Life]

And all three schools have the same thing in common— coaching issues.

Pikiell only has such a good reputation because he brought a pathetic program back to respectability but 2 tournaments in 9 years isn’t exactly good. If RU doesn’t make it this year with 2 projected lottery picks, his time should be ticking.

Providence is in a similar boat to us, only for some reason, Sha is getting a pass nationally and English is on the hot seat. Probably because Providence does a good job raising NIL and English can’t use that excuse as a crutch.

My point is— all 3 fan bases have a legitimate gripe. And all three coaches are doing bad jobs.

 

[Piratz]

Everyone faces the same challenges in terms of mobilizing resources and basketball operations. Even if you have well organized, aligned resources - priority #1 - you need to have strong basketball assessment and it’s not easy assembling teams every freaking year. It’s totally different how you coach basketball with the lack of continuity.

Both Rutgers and Providence are struggling with the latter. They’ve had good resources. Marquette is a gold standard.

We know the issues with the resources at Seton Hall: both the university’s reluctance towards NIL and the lack of modern business acumen. We also have a basketball issue this year with how Holloway and staff evaluated players, built a roster (fantasy of 10 deep on prob less than $2M), and now have major problems acclimating players to the extent of losing 3 games to mid majors with horrible play continuously. Lots of lessons here.

 

[HALL85]

Lloyd as usual, the voice of reason.

I have no inside information, but observations over decades of our program, and what I see and read with my own eyes.

IMO:
- At the end of this year, Sha needs to do some self reflection and reevaluate recruitment strategy, his coaching staff, and how he needs to adapt in this new environment. It’s not just an SHU thing as Lloyd states. But you need to adapt in this rapidly changing environment.
- I don’t know who is in his trusted net work, but he needs to develop one. Whether it is people, inside, or outside of the program, you need people that will tell you what you need to know versus what you want to hear. This me against the world stuff it’s not sustainable.
- The BOR needs to get their act together. They are leading from way behind. Not doing the program and Sha any favors. When a guy as committed as Mike Walsh steps up and it’s actually the loudest voice for NIL, that’s a huge problem. Is Mike McBride in witness protection?

 

[HallLine69]

Lloyd as usual, the voice of reason.

I have no inside information, but observations over decades of our program, and what I see and read with my own eyes.

IMO:
- At the end of this year, Sha needs to do some self reflection and reevaluate recruitment strategy, his coaching staff, and how he needs to adapt in this new environment. It’s not just an SHU thing as Lloyd states. But you need to adapt in this rapidly changing environment.
- I don’t know who is in his trusted net work, but he needs to develop one. Whether it is people, inside, or outside of the program, you need people that will tell you what you need to know versus what you want to hear. This me against the world stuff it’s not sustainable.
- The BOR needs to get their act together. They are leading from way behind. Not doing the program and Sha any favors. When a guy as committed as Mike Walsh steps up and it’s actually the loudest voice for NIL, that’s a huge problem. Is Mike McBride in witness protection?

These are all very good points. I especially agree with the one about Sha taking stock. I believe his teams --and he himself personally--would benefit. And I say that constructively and respectfully.

 

[lloyde dobler]

And all three schools have the same thing in common— coaching issues.

Pikiell only has such a good reputation because he brought a pathetic program back to respectability but 2 tournaments in 9 years isn’t exactly good. If RU doesn’t make it this year with 2 projected lottery picks, his time should be ticking.

Providence is in a similar boat to us, only for some reason, Sha is getting a pass nationally and English is on the hot seat. Probably because Providence does a good job raising NIL and English can’t use that excuse as a crutch.

My point is— all 3 fan bases have a legitimate gripe. And all three coaches are doing bad jobs.

In power conference college basketball, aren’t a losing season and coaching issues the same thing?

 

[HALL85]

These are all very good points. I especially agree with the one about Sha taking stock. I believe his teams --and he himself personally--would benefit. And I say that constructively and respectfully.

Any good leader needs to this to sustain success. Sha was a one-man show at SPU and had a lot of free rein…and was very successful.

P5 is a big step up and you need to get that, adjust and surround yourself with people (coaches, mentors, advisors, etc.). I’m hoping Lyons, Felt and Reilly are telling him this, but at the end of the day, Sha has to do it. He deserves the time and support to adjust.

 

[dehere23]

And all three schools have the same thing in common— coaching issues.

Pikiell only has such a good reputation because he brought a pathetic program back to respectability but 2 tournaments in 9 years isn’t exactly good. If RU doesn’t make it this year with 2 projected lottery picks, his time should be ticking.

Providence is in a similar boat to us, only for some reason, Sha is getting a pass nationally and English is on the hot seat. Probably because Providence does a good job raising NIL and English can’t use that excuse as a crutch.

My point is— all 3 fan bases have a legitimate gripe. And all three coaches are doing bad jobs.

English shouldn’t be anywhere near the hot seat.

 

[SHUSA]

And all three schools have the same thing in common— coaching issues.

Pikiell only has such a good reputation because he brought a pathetic program back to respectability but 2 tournaments in 9 years isn’t exactly good. If RU doesn’t make it this year with 2 projected lottery picks, his time should be ticking.

Providence is in a similar boat to us, only for some reason, Sha is getting a pass nationally and English is on the hot seat. Probably because Providence does a good job raising NIL and English can’t use that excuse as a crutch.

My point is— all 3 fan bases have a legitimate gripe. And all three coaches are doing bad jobs.

the second a coach doesn't have a good year they stink.

 

[Hall Is Life]

English shouldn’t be anywhere near the hot seat.

I agree with you but Providence faithful have soured on him quickly.

 

[Hall Is Life]

the second a coach doesn't have a good year they stink.

lol not at all what I said but hey, see what you want to see. I ain’t stopping ya!

 

[SHUSA]

lol not at all what I said but hey, see what you want to see. I ain’t stopping ya!

its pretty much what you said. teams that have had success now having coaching problems all of a sudden.

 

[Hall Is Life]

its pretty much what you said. teams that have had success now having coaching problems all of a sudden.

Rutgers had success? When?

Providence and SHU both have very similar situations. Cooley and Willard left their respective schools in good positions and both English and Sha are doing bad jobs in sustaining that success.

Come on buddy! Keep up!

 

[SHUSA]

Rutgers had success? When?

Providence and SHU both have very similar situations. Cooley and Willard left their respective schools in good positions and both English and Sha are doing bad jobs in sustaining that success.

Come on buddy! Keep up!

does sha have best 2 year start of any coach in shu history??

 

[hallstorm]

I’ve been saying what the OP said above for a while. Sha certainly deserves to be roasted for this year, but it’s getting tiring seeing the handful of posters who are lumping his career in with this season.

There are more than a bunch of unhappy fan bases of highly successful programs this season:

Miami, North Carolina, Syracuse, Arizona and Notre Dame to name a few.

And you’ve seen two prominent programs lose their head coaches each who have either won a championship (Tony Bennet) or gotten to a pair of final fours (Larrañaga).

 

[Burnsly]

"Providence is in a similar boat to us, only for some reason, Sha is getting a pass nationally and English is on the hot seat. Probably because Providence does a good job raising NIL and English can’t use that excuse as a crutch."


I think it's absurd at this point to think that Sha or English deserve to be on the "hot seat" but I also can't argue with you on this one.

 

[Piratz]

Sha def gets more grace here bc he’s one of ours. And nationally bc they all know our pathetic NIL situation and not splitting hairs like we are as diehards as to how Sha chose to spend what he did have; we’re not relevant enough for that.

 

[dehere23]

I agree with you but Providence faithful have soured on him quickly.

He lost his best player last year, and one of the conference POY favorites, to a devastating injury early in the conference season. Carter emerged from a solid player to a star (and NBA first rounder), and he had that team squarely on the NCAA bubble. I know they were used to winning more often than not with Cooley, but I think it's entirely premature for them to be so down on English especially with the Hopkins injury situation the last 2 years.

 

[SHUSA]

Sha def gets more grace here bc he’s one of ours. And nationally bc they all know our pathetic NIL situation and not splitting hairs like we are as diehards as to how Sha chose to spend what he did have; we’re not relevant enough for that.

i see us as having sha be that career coach that every so often pops back up in the tournament and is a force with a good team. eventually he will leave tho. thats pretty much our best case scenario for any coach.

 

[Hall Is Life]

does sha have best 2 year start of any coach in shu history??

Kevin Ollie won a national championship…

 

[SHUSA]

Kevin Ollie won a national championship…

yup KW handed over a perfectly stacked roster to sha. no fiasco leaving or anything.

who is your replacement? youve evaded that topic aggressively. you've had enough time to google.

 

[jack 1970]

One of the problems generating fan dissention is the lack of transparency regarding NIL generation and usage.No one seems to know how the NIL monies are generated and how they are used to recruit players.Given SHUs well deserved record of being late on trends and lacking business acumen it's not surprising that fans are upset and the program appears to be in trouble.This further erodes fan support and makes the challenge even more difficult.Who's really running the show?The President,BOR,AD,Coach,etc ?

 

[Hall Is Life]

yup KW handed over a perfectly stacked roster to sha. no fiasco leaving or anything.

who is your replacement? youve evaded that topic aggressively. you've had enough time to google.

My point was regression. Just like Ollie with Calhoun’s roster, Sha has failed once Willard’s talent (Kadary) left.

@MichiganStoleTitle named a bunch of replacement options that would make sense. Listen, does Sha deserve more time? Yes. But if this should happen again next year, no way does he deserve another chance. Next year is put up or shut up. Stop blaming the players. Stop shutting the media out. Engage the fan base (one that is ok with merely making it to the dance btw). We don’t demand titles. Just be competitive and deliver us some hope. Time for Sha to put his big boy pants on and look in the mirror.

 

[SHUSA]

My point was regression. Just like Ollie with Calhoun’s roster, Sha has failed once Willard’s talent (Kadary) left.

@MichiganStoleTitle named a bunch of replacement options that would make sense. Listen, does Sha deserve more time? Yes. But if this should happen again next year, no way does he deserve another chance. Next year is put up or shut up. Stop blaming the players. Stop shutting the media out. Engage the fan base (one that is ok with merely making it to the dance btw). We don’t demand titles. Just be competitive and deliver us some hope. Time for Sha to put his big boy pants on and look in the mirror.

you can regress after .5 of a year???

 

[Bud Boomer]

We are not alone in being bad, but we are not in the same boat as Rutgers or Providence. Those teams have underperformed, but are still in the top 75 or so. We are one of three worst power conference teams in the country (146th on Kenpom). Only Virginia Tech and BC are worse. We are the worst Big East team by a wide margin. Rutgers is closer to being a top 30 team in Kenpom than we are to being a top 75 team. Yikes.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

We are not alone in being bad, but we are not in the same boat as Rutgers or Providence. Those teams have underperformed, but are still in the top 75 or so. We are one of three worst power conference teams in the country (146th on Kenpom). Only Virginia Tech and BC are worse. We are the worst Big East team by a wide margin. Rutgers is closer to being a top 30 team in Kenpom than we are to being a top 75 team. Yikes.

Rutgers is also under performing with two potential top 5 NBA lottery picks.

We are comparing apples to oranges here.

 

[Piratz]

Our former players help?

 

[lloyde dobler]

Rutgers is also under performing with two potential top 5 NBA lottery picks.

We are comparing apples to oranges here.

No we’re not. My point is to check out their board. The sentiment is what I’m talking about, not the win-loss record, or the roster.

 

[SHUSA]

Our former players help?

View embedded media

this is the other negative for seton hall. we produce no rich alumni whether its students or athletes.

 

[SHallguy2]

I’m holding on to see how we finish this year and also to see if we retain our core guys for next year. No one knows for sure what a successful formula will look like in the future. Many times the sentiment of the board changes as the year progresses. What appears to be a lost season now may very well end up being a good rebuilding year by the end of the season. Sometimes one change in the roster can be the difference between winning and losing. We have some talented Freshman and Sophomores and a collection of very average even below average upperclassmen. People are assuming Sha did a bad job, I think the verdict on the season has not yet been written. I think we will be very competitive next year if we can keep the young guys and add one or 2 key players. How many teams with this many Freshman and Sophomores are playing great with an NIL our size. Can someone name one?

 

[Halldan1]

Our former players help?

View embedded media

Hope everyone who pushed for these ridiculous rules, I'm talking to you Jay Bilas are happy.

You all have ruined the sport.

 

[Piratz]

I’m holding on to see how we finish this year and also to see if we retain our core guys for next year. No one knows for sure what a successful formula will look like in the future. Many times the sentiment of the board changes as the year progresses. What appears to be a lost season now may very well end up being a good rebuilding year by the end of the season. Sometimes one change in the roster can be the difference between winning and losing. We have some talented Freshman and Sophomores and a collection of very average even below average upperclassmen. People are assuming Sha did a bad job, I think the verdict on the season has not yet been written. I think we will be very competitive next year if we can keep the young guys and add one or 2 key players. How many teams with this many Freshman and Sophomores are playing great with an NIL our size. Can someone name one?

That's all anyone can reasonable hope for. I don't know how Sha is going to manufacture solid Big East PG play from Addae-Wusu + Dual or solid Big East forward play from Aligble + Toumi - and Addae-Wusu and Toumi are already 5th year players - but you hope to have a rotation and better optmisim on some of these player's by the time we hit MSG in March. That's it.

Dual is really the wild card and Felton looks to have potential, but need to see a lot more. We've already seen enough to build around Coleman and keep Middleton around, IMO. And I like the upside of Godswill and Gus. That's 4.

 

[SHUSA]

Hope everyone who pushed for these ridiculous rules, I'm talking to you Jay Bilas are happy.

You all have ruined the sport.

i feel like this is all one giant overreaction to a few players going directly to the G league a few years ago. the ncaa decided the only course of action was to make themselves the g league

 

[Burnsly]

It’s not just college hoops either. College football playoff games have been a complete snooze fest. Boise State coach said there are teams offering 10x NIL $ to players than they can.

 

[Section112]

Hope everyone who pushed for these ridiculous rules, I'm talking to you Jay Bilas are happy.

You all have ruined the sport.

I never could stand to listen to Bilas. So pompous and acts like he's smarter and better than anyone else. This is what he pushed for and he got it. Biggest dbag in college media in my opinion and there are quite a few competitors for that coveted role and he out db's them all.

 

[Piratz]

i feel like this is all one giant overreaction to a few players going directly to the G league a few years ago. the ncaa decided the only course of action was to make themselves the g league

Also the legal situation. The Courts have no helped, that's for sure.