OBAMA

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by Old_alum:

Finally, a favorite. If US/Wilson did not enter WWI, then seems that a stalemate would be the probable result. No Versailles, no Hitler?? I suspect so. WW I was the silliest war ever (The Guns of August - Tuchman).

One of the few things we agree on. While it's hard to predict the course of history the reasons for entering WW1 escape me and had we not entered into the European War there is a decent likelyhood that the rise of Hitler and WW2 never occurs.

Woodrow Wilson is an enigma. Considered the great liberal of the early part of the 20th century because of his promoting workers rights and health issues as well as the League of Nations. Yet he was a staunch segregationist, praised the KKK, and opposed the sufferagette movement and also took us to War for no particular reason. I guess none of our Presidents or leaders were perfect. Afterall Thomas Jefferson wrote that "all men are created equal" while being a slave owner.

Tom K

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Seton75:

Originally posted by HALL85:
Anyone find the hypocracy that we can be so horrified by these interrogation techniques and how Un-American it is, but on the other had we have no issue deploying drone attackes that have killed hundreds of civilians and children. That is American?

It seems to me that both objections were made cause the other side did it, and if Bush did the drones and Obama the torture, the objections would be modified accordingly. And that a pol is duplicitous in their criticism doesn't mean the criticism is wrong, just that the pol is not a valid person to be making the point.

I do not think Arabs need any new excuses to hate us.

I don't like the idea of drones killing civilians. And I don't like the idea of terrorists using civilians as shields. I didn't like reading about the fire bombing of Dresden, or the interment of the Japanese.

The CIA has a long history of secrecy/lying to the govt. They blatantly lied to the Warren Commission in their investigation of JFK's murder! They lied to JFK about the Bay of Pigs. Their thinking on Cuba could have lead to a nuclear holocaust if JFK listened to the unanimous military advice he was receiving

I don't have any solutions. And I don't like the smell of it. And I tend to think that doing what they do under the best supervision as is possible may be the best way to proceed, and that while the pres and congressional leaders deserve full disclosure, I don't.

Of course, a part of me is with SPK and the Libertarians who want us to get our asses out of these foreign countries, stop trying to influence how they govern.

I often wonder if we never entered WWI, how the history of the 20th century may have been different.

I agree that we should stay out of any country to try to influence their governing decisions. It may sound cruel, but we also can't get involved in humanitarian missions like we recently did with the Kurds in Iraq or in Syria. Where do you draw the line? By rights, we should be involved in the conflicts regarding humanitarian rights in half the countries in Africa. The only deployment of troops should happen when there is a direct or potentially direct impact on our national security.

With regards to the CIA interrogation techniques, the way I see this is that these terrorists are not soldiers governed by the Geneva convention. They are terrorists that have killed innocent civilians and children. I don't have an issue using whatever techniques are required to secure information. We are not fighting conventional wars anymore and more of our efforts are going to be needed to be covert. I want our military to take out terrorists that aim to harm our civilians and I don't care if I know about it. I do care that those in charge are making the best decisions to take out as many bad guys as possible.

I do have an issue with these drone strikes when they kill innocents. I also agree that politicians are playing too much politics with all of this.

 

[SPK145]

Originally posted by HALL85:

I do have an issue with these drone strikes when they kill innocents.

Do drone strikes kill more innocents than manned flights? If so, why? If not, more power to the drones if we are going to attack anyone.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by SPK145:

Originally posted by HALL85:

I do have an issue with these drone strikes when they kill innocents.

Do drone strikes kill more innocents than manned flights? If so, why? If not, more power to the drones if we are going to attack anyone.

I think the right question is should we be doing air strikes (manned or unmanned) that kills civilians in a country that we declared war in. If a country harbors terrorists it shouldn't give us carte Blanche to kill civilians in harms way. We should be better than that.

 

[Merge]

Honestly, we should be setting the precedent on torture. It doesn't work, the prisoner will say what you want so you stop, and we can't expect our POW's to be treated better when we are torturing people.

I don't have a problem with drones as long as we are doing everything in our power to limit the number of civilian deaths.

btw... any of you watching Homeland?
best show on TV right now in my opinion.

 

[HALL85]

Originally posted by Merge:
Honestly, we should be setting the precedent on torture. It doesn't work, the prisoner will say what you want so you stop, and we can't expect our POW's to be treated better when we are torturing people.

Merge, I make a distinction in that in a conventional war, soldiers are fighting soldiers for a specific reason (occupying a land, resources, or preventing that, etc.). There are international laws that cover that. The terrorists we are talking about prey on innocent civilians to do nothing more than to create fear and chaos. I see that as a very different situation and think there should be a great deal of latitude on using interrogation techniques.

If you're calling this past weeks report as "proof" than I have to disagree. It was a flawed and partisan report.

 

[SnakeTom]

Originally posted by Merge:

btw... any of you watching Homeland?
best show on TV right now in my opinion.

I have watched years 1-3 of Homeland but have not yet started watching this years episodes (year #4). I agree with you however that it is the best show on TV.

Tom K

 

[SHUBigT]

Originally posted by Merge:
Honestly, we should be setting the precedent on torture. It doesn't work, the prisoner will say what you want so you stop, and we can't expect our POW's to be treated better when we are torturing people.

I don't have a problem with drones as long as we are doing everything in our power to limit the number of civilian deaths.

btw... any of you watching Homeland?
best show on TV right now in my opinion.

Merge, I just wanted to say thank you for turning me on to Homeland. I binge watched it over the Christmas break and absolutely loved it. I have two episodes left until I'm current but you were right what a show.