Observations @ St. John’s

[LeftCoastPirates]

Normally I am not a fan of a win is a win statement. But this is one that can go into that column and I won’t disagree. It was ugly and the refs made it hideous, but it was a BE rivalry road win. No one is putting this amongst the great games we will look back on. The numbers speak for themselves, if your eyes didn’t bleed watching. 44 fouls, 3 technicals, 31 turnovers, and 19 missed free throws. However, normally a game like that goes in the favor of the home team but they persevered. So that makes it a quality road win and a quad 2 win at that.

Give the bench credit
It has been much maligned throughout the year. Receiving criticism for allowing the other team to go on momentum changing runs in previous first halves. But tonight they held their own and were crucial to the win.

With the Hall trailing by 13 in the first half, the Pirates went on an 11-0 run sparked by 5 points from Jaquan Sanders, and 3 pointers from Harris and Jackson.

In the second half Harris provided 8 more big points, Tae Davis got a crucial bucket late, and Tray Jackson held his own.

All in all, the bench was able to keep pace with Jones and Alexander only ending up a minus 6 (26-32). And remember this was without the injured Dre Davis for the evening.

Sha is the real chiropractor
With the foul trouble mounting for the Hall, Sha went zone and then took the air out of the ball offensively down the stretch. These moves won the game. He protected 4 guys with 4 fouls as long as he could and kept Soriano from having a late impact. The team also showed poise using the majority of the shot clock but still executing for quality looks in the paint.

Kadary was the player of the game
I know people are going to point to the onions Dawes had by making some big shots in the second half to finish with 21 points to lead all scorers on the evening. But his jeckel and hyde performance (1-8 to start vs 4-6 to close) is partly to blame for why they got into the early hole. He still needs to learn what is quality shot selection.

I understand Kadary finished only 6-17. I felt like he doesn’t get the favorable whistle because his approach is so methodical and physically initiated on his end. But he should. And he should be living at the line more and has to make them (2-5 tonight).

But in a street fight of a game he gave you a career high 13 rebounds and was 3 assists shy of a triple double.

More importantly he controlled the tempo of the game in the last 8 minutes. He initiated the offense. And he made the big plays to help ice the game away.

One more win this weekend and the take care of business stretch is complete. Then we can see if this team can find a way to make some magic out of their defensive effort and get into the dance. I promise you it won’t be by scoring 84 points like they did tonight.

 

[HallBall02]

Agree with everything except this statement “Sha’s assistant coaches are the real chiropractor” they were yelling at Sha to go to zone while he was hesitant. I think a few of our players thrive in zone D, including and especially Richmond. Should do it more against poor 3pt shooting teams.

As of today, unless one of the bottom teams win the big east tourney, only 6 teams can make the ncaa tourney. I wonder if the big east refs take that into consideration when we play gtown and nova twice. Just wondering since Jay is gone and Ewing is essentially gone…

 

[jack 1970]

Normally I am not a fan of a win is a win statement. But this is one that can go into that column and I won’t disagree. It was ugly and the refs made it hideous, but it was a BE rivalry road win. No one is putting this amongst the great games we will look back on. The numbers speak for themselves, if your eyes didn’t bleed watching. 44 fouls, 3 technicals, 31 turnovers, and 19 missed free throws. However, normally a game like that goes in the favor of the home team but they persevered. So that makes it a quality road win and a quad 2 win at that.

Give the bench credit
It has been much maligned throughout the year. Receiving criticism for allowing the other team to go on momentum changing runs in previous first halves. But tonight they held their own and were crucial to the win.

With the Hall trailing by 13 in the first half, the Pirates went on an 11-0 run sparked by 5 points from Jaquan Sanders, and 3 pointers from Harris and Jackson.

In the second half Harris provided 8 more big points, Tae Davis got a crucial bucket late, and Tray Jackson held his own.

All in all, the bench was able to keep pace with Jones and Alexander only ending up a minus 6 (26-32). And remember this was without the injured Dre Davis for the evening.

Sha is the real chiropractor
With the foul trouble mounting for the Hall, Sha went zone and then took the air out of the ball offensively down the stretch. These moves won the game. He protected 4 guys with 4 fouls as long as he could and kept Soriano from having a late impact. The team also showed poise using the majority of the shot clock but still executing for quality looks in the paint.

Kadary was the player of the game
I know people are going to point to the onions Dawes had by making some big shots in the second half to finish with 21 points to lead all scorers on the evening. But his jeckel and hyde performance (1-8 to start vs 4-6 to close) is partly to blame for why they got into the early hole. He still needs to learn what is quality shot selection.

I understand Kadary finished only 6-17. I felt like he doesn’t get the favorable whistle because his approach is so methodical and physically initiated on his end. But he should. And he should be living at the line more and has to make them (2-5 tonight).

But in a street fight of a game he gave you a career high 13 rebounds and was 3 assists shy of a triple double.

More importantly he controlled the tempo of the game in the last 8 minutes. He initiated the offense. And he made the big plays to help ice the game away.

One more win this weekend and the take care of business stretch is complete. Then we can see if this team can find a way to make some magic out of their defensive effort and get into the dance. I promise you it won’t be by scoring 84 points like they did tonight.

Would add we had 13 turnovers with 11 minutes left.Had only 1 turnover in last 11 minutes.We need to take care of the ball to win.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

Agree with everything except this statement “Sha’s assistant coaches are the real chiropractor” they were yelling at Sha to go to zone while he was hesitant. I think a few of our players thrive in zone D, including and especially Richmond. Should do it more against poor 3pt shooting teams.

As of today, unless one of the bottom teams win the big east tourney, only 6 teams can make the ncaa tourney. I wonder if the big east refs take that into consideration when we play gtown and nova twice. Just wondering since Jay is gone and Ewing is essentially gone…

Good observation by you if that’s what went down. Great job by the assistants and still a great job by Sha to be open minded and collaborate with his staff mid game like that. It shows a lot of trust and that he believes in his guys. Humility is good, the buck stops with the head coach, but it’s more than you if you want to build a program.

We were quick to judge since his assistants weren’t experienced recruiters. Maybe this is part of the value his staff brings to the table.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Real chiropractor? He went to the zone because 4 guys had 4 fouls and he was forced into it. It wasn’t an adjustment by choice. Probably would’ve been a good halftime adjustment. This was adjustment made to keep seton hall players from fouling out not an adjustment to stop St John’s, even though it did. This was about preserving bodies on the floor the final 8 minutes not X’s and O’s.

Is there a soul out there who believes we go zone to stop St John’s if we are not in severe foul trouble?

 

[Hall91]

Very satisfying win. I love the fact the team played that match up zone as well as it did despite rarely playing it. we’ve got ourselves a very good coach. Just need enough talent over the long run.

 

[Piratz]

The zone worked in the first game against them too when we were down big. Think we were down 10, won by 22. Last night down 13, won by 12. Wild. And awesome.

 

[garyshu71]

The zone worked in the first game against them too when we were down big. Think we were down 10, won by 22. Last night down 13, won by 12. Wild. And awesome.

If you practice and play against man all the time a good zone is a real big problem to solve !!!

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

If you practice and play against man all the time a good zone is a real big problem to solve !!!

Sounds like a strategy should’ve gone into the game with.

 

[lloyde dobler]

I thought the assistant coaches were underwhelming ????

 

[JTSHU]

Agree with everything except this statement “Sha’s assistant coaches are the real chiropractor” they were yelling at Sha to go to zone while he was hesitant. I think a few of our players thrive in zone D, including and especially Richmond. Should do it more against poor 3pt shooting teams.

As of today, unless one of the bottom teams win the big east tourney, only 6 teams can make the ncaa tourney. I wonder if the big east refs take that into consideration when we play gtown and nova twice. Just wondering since Jay is gone and Ewing is essentially gone…

I never like our zone but we HAD to with all those fouls. However it forced st johns to shoot away from outside the paint.

 

[HallBall02]

I thought the assistant coaches were underwhelming ????

They are but as recruiters, which some will say is their main job. Hard to doubt Whalen when Sha said he was key numerous times in the St. Peter’s run with scouting and game planning.

 

[Halldan1]

The zone worked in the first game against them too when we were down big. Think we were down 10, won by 22. Last night down 13, won by 12. Wild. And awesome.

Both games were won by Seton Hall in the second half.

Combined scores

Seton Hall 98

St John's 66

 

[sussexcopirate]

Sounds like a strategy should’ve gone into the game with.

A good team imposes their will on others. Sha wants to be a hard nose team with man defense - he went to the zone when he had to and it worked.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

A good team imposes their will on others. Sha wants to be a hard nose team with man defense - he went to the zone when he had to and it worked.

No a good team exposes the weaknesses of other teams. If you're strength is interior play and the opponent has Shaq in his prime do you really think you're going to try to impose your will? We went to a different approach out of desperation, an approach we probably should've used much earlier. And I don't believe for a second we would've went zone if 4 guys didn't have 4 fouls. This wasn't a tactical strategy to outsmart Mike Anderson. This was a strategy to have scholarship players on the court in the final minutes.

 

[Seton75]

Agree with everything except this statement “Sha’s assistant coaches are the real chiropractor” they were yelling at Sha to go to zone while he was hesitant. I think a few of our players thrive in zone D, including and especially Richmond. Should do it more against poor 3pt shooting teams.

As of today, unless one of the bottom teams win the big east tourney, only 6 teams can make the ncaa tourney. I wonder if the big east refs take that into consideration when we play gtown and nova twice. Just wondering since Jay is gone and Ewing is essentially gone…

Sha had a reason why he stayed out of zone. I thought he waited too long. But he said he had kids playing out of position and were afraid cause of that. Which might explain the easy bucket on the first SJ possesion after we switched to Zone.

 

[sussexcopirate]

No a good team exposes the weaknesses of other teams. If you're strength is interior play and the opponent has Shaq in his prime do you really think you're going to try to impose your will? We went to a different approach out of desperation, an approach we probably should've used much earlier. And I don't believe for a second we would've went zone if 4 guys didn't have 4 fouls. This wasn't a tactical strategy to outsmart Mike Anderson. This was a strategy to have scholarship players on the court in the final minutes.

You're using one of the greatest big men of all time to say Holloway was wrong to not play zone longer?

I maintain that good teams make you adjust to their style of play.

If we played zone longer, say since the 1st half, St. Johns would of had plenty of time to adjust to it. We're primarily a man-to-man team. He made the switch, and we won going away.

 

[NYC Pirate]

First, I’m not sure how it translated on television, but that is a very difficult environment to play in. The SJU fan base may not be dialed into Anderson and his record, but believe me they wanted to win. SHU is a clear rival and they get juiced up in that building. There may have been 5000 people there but the acoustics of Carnesecca make it more imposing than that.I do believe they will switch back to MSG next season against The Hall.

As to the game it was just all over the map. From a SHU standpoint they were steadfast despite getting behind 2 different times by sizable SJU leads I thought the three consecutive shots the bench made saved the day and destroyed all of SJU’s dynamic first half in an instant.

The fouling at some point was ridiculous yet I didn’t think the refs missed too much, “Maybe” Richmond did not get a good whistle going to the rim? Besides that the SHU players were really fouling a lot.

It’s a tremendous win on the road against a team that can’t find its identity and lacks chemistry on the court. More to praise SHU for, but many things to criticize too. Mission accomplished winning at Butler and SJU. Good job by Sha and the staff.

Last note: It was so refreshing to see First Year players T.Davis and J. Sanders be allowed to play significant minutes in a very important road game. They contributed 8 points and were not overwhelmed. That experience can’t hurt down the road.

 

[jack 1970]

Both games were won by Seton Hall in the second half.

Combined scores

Seton Hall 98

St John's 66

I think Anderson could be done after this seasonThe team doesn't seem to respond to him..In desperation they could hire Pittino.A sleaze ball but a winner.

 

[JTSHU]

A good team imposes their will on others. Sha wants to be a hard nose team with man defense - he went to the zone when he had to and it worked.

Problem w our man is we play so much w our hands resulting in fouls. Works too when we get deflections, but also our rotations and close outs on 3s is so bad. Idk if its communication or our guards just cant keep quicker guards in front resulting in collapsing d and rotations. If u can keep a guard in front our d wont collapse. We also over help way too much. Also resulting in open 3s

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

You're using one of the greatest big men of all time to say Holloway was wrong to not play zone longer?

I maintain that good teams make you adjust to their style of play.

If we played zone longer, say since the 1st half, St. Johns would of had plenty of time to adjust to it. We're primarily a man-to-man team. He made the switch, and we won going away.

I'm using it as the most easiest example to comprehend. You attack the opponents weakness. No different than a lot of teams attacked us inside when Samuel was essesntially playing the interior with no experience and a lot of learning to do. As our interior defense has improved it's not so much of a weakness. When a guy likes to go right, you make him go left. Are these examples better or do you need more?

 

[sussexcopirate]

I'm using it as the most easiest example to comprehend. You attack the opponents weakness. No different than a lot of teams attacked us inside when Samuel was essesntially playing the interior with no experience and a lot of learning to do. As our interior defense has improved it's not so much of a weakness. When a guy likes to go right, you make him go left. Are these examples better or do you need more?

I'll trust the head coach making 3 million a year whose team won going away, after a timely adjustment, versus the Monday morning qb nitpicking a 12-point road win.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I'll trust the head coach making 3 million a year whose team won going away, after a timely adjustment, versus the Monday morning qb nitpicking a 12-point road win.

So I guess you think as long as a team wins and their coach makes big money, the coach always got it right. I guess that makes thinking for yourself nonexistent and it's much easier.

 

[Seton75]

I lived and worked in NYC when the BE started. SHU was a total afterthought to the SJU juggernaut. They ruled the city. We were pitied. Guys with season tickets took a night off when they played us cause the game would suck. Then we got better, Then we got good. A few guys I knew had clear issue with the fact that we were just as good as them. They are the old guys we now see in Alumni. And knowing that SHU is once again better than them really grates on their sports spine.

 

[Burnsly]

Not a fan at all of zone defenses but it was absolutely necessary last night due to the foul situation.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Not a fan at all of zone defenses but it was absolutely necessary last night due to the foul situation.

If it results in our opponets looking lost like SJU did last night, we can all learn to love it.

 

[sussexcopirate]

So I guess you think as long as a team wins and their coach makes big money, the coach always got it right. I guess that makes thinking for yourself nonexistent and it's much easier.

No, but the other coach does get paid to make adjustments as well. You're assuming if Sha switched to zone earlier that the result would have been the same. Perhaps St. Johns adjusts and makes their own run.

IMO, the timing that Sha made the adjustment was perfect to stifle St. Johns and ignite a big run to put the game on ice for a much-needed win. I think Shaheen knows what hes doing on defense as we are 14th in the nation in overall defense for a reason.

 

[LeftCoastPirates]

St. John’s started the game making their first 5 three point attempts. Didn’t have their first miss until more than 15 minutes into the game.

I don’t believe going zone at that point, is the right strategy. As has been stated above, we tend to over rotate and close out poorly. So you don’t want to leave your opponent with even cleaner looks while they are red hot. St. John’s regressed back to the mean as I hoped they would going 2-10 for the remainder of the game.

I don’t know the exact time stamp in which Sha changed to the zone, but at the 8 minute mark when Harris hit his second 3 pointer to put the Hall up 7, I was saying to myself, let’s minimize the amount of possessions left in this game. 8 minutes is normally way too much time to think that way. But the Johnnies were 0-3 FG and 3 turnovers in their prior 6 possessions to Harris’s bucket. It just felt like with Curbello out of the game, their dribble penetration was not as effective and they were struggling to get good looks. So Sha’s zone not only protected the guys in foul trouble, but it caused St. John’s to run more time off the shot clock when they possessed the ball.

The game was now being played at our pace on both ends and we weren’t careless with the ball as we only had one turnover down the stretch.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

No, but the other coach does get paid to make adjustments as well. You're assuming if Sha switched to zone earlier that the result would have been the same. Perhaps St. Johns adjusts and makes their own run.

IMO, the timing that Sha made the adjustment was perfect to stifle St. Johns and ignite a big run to put the game on ice for a much-needed win. I think Shaheen knows what hes doing on defense as we are 14th in the nation in overall defense for a reason.

Nobody is saying the other coach doesn't paid to win, but that doesn't change the fact the purpose of our move in the chess match was to protect bodies, not an X and O move. The fact it changed the game wasn't the intention, but it clearly did. Even Lappas was saying go zone to try to protect the players.

Of course that's the assumption. Any time we lose and someone says a coach should've done this or a coach should've done that there is an assumption of better things. Guess what we saw 8 minutes that proved right. Usually those assumptions they don't see anything that proved it could've worked.

8 minutes is a lot of time for a coach to make an adjustment. Heck we saw Fran McCaffrey call a timeout basically 2 minutes into the second half and adjust. I was shocked Anderson had Soriano in the high post, not somebody better suited to pass or shoot out of the spot on the court. I thought Anderson did a Travis Steele like job. Really after 2 disjointed offensive sets he should've called a TO and regrouped his guys with a plan but he didn't. If Anderson didn't stop it in 8 minutes, he probably wouldn't have stopped it in 16 minutes. Is it possible they could've just gotten hot at one point and hit a couple 3's against it, sure. But all night SJU took it right at as and very few times did our defenders keep verticality, which resulted in a lot of fouls. And for the most part they took it to us playing that style.

 

[NYC Pirate]

Not a fan at all of zone defenses but it was absolutely necessary last night due to the foul situation.

I actually like a mix of both. I just love when you guard the guy in front of you instead of chasing around.. It worked significantly because of the matchup. Posh was the only one that could figure it out and penetrate. The other guys were frustrated out on the perimeter. Teams like Creighton, Marquette and UConn to a lesser degree have more motion. Excellent job by Sha there whether by choice or necessity.

 

[Halldan1]

I lived and worked in NYC when the BE started. SHU was a total afterthought to the SJU juggernaut. They ruled the city. We were pitied. Guys with season tickets took a night off when they played us cause the game would suck. Then we got better, Then we got good. A few guys I knew had clear issue with the fact that we were just as good as them. They are the old guys we now see in Alumni. And knowing that SHU is once again better than them really grates on their sports spine.

Men

88-66
84-72


Women

72-51
68-58

 

[lloyde dobler]

I lived and worked in NYC when the BE started. SHU was a total afterthought to the SJU juggernaut. They ruled the city. We were pitied. Guys with season tickets took a night off when they played us cause the game would suck. Then we got better, Then we got good. A few guys I knew had clear issue with the fact that we were just as good as them. They are the old guys we now see in Alumni. And knowing that SHU is once again better than them really grates on their sports spine.

The King of that group is a certain retired radio host in NYC.