OT: Ken Burns Vietnam

[ArtieLange9]

I highly highly suggest everyone to watch it.

As with everything Burns does, just powerful stuff.

Being in my late 30's, it was something that was taught with little detail in HS or College. Watching this doc is just so informative and emotionally moving.

I'd love to hear some of the older poster's opinions on it if you watched it or lived it.

 

[cernjSHU]

I just finished episode 5. I was very young and don't remember much about the end of the war. However, what I find fascinating is how Burns gets you to the beginning of the conflict and how and where we really misread this whole catastrophe.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

original music for the entire series (which clocks in around 18 hours total...crazy) done by Trent Reznor & Atticuss Ross of NIN, who have now also done the soundtracks for Social Network, Gone Girl, Patriots Day, Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, Before The Flood & the Quake video game from 1996).

Massive undertaking once again from Burns & also from Trent to score it all.

 

[buckfoston824]

Burns is a God

 

[Joe_T]

Anecdotal, but none of my college-educated draftee friends were sent to Vietnam. We suspected it was engineered that way (lots of types of de facto discrimination were accepted back then).

I liked the part in the documentary where that one old guy was pissed that the Greatest Generation got all the credit, when he saw such courage displayed in Vietnam. Kinda puts it in relief that all generations have greatness (statistically it makes sense that the distributions of personality traits wouldn't change). Gen Xers, Millennials, Boomers, we're all made up of the same humanity, and none deserve derision. (Although a young Indian friend's observation after living here about 10 years is that those Boomers just after the Vietnam era age group are the worst.)

Lots more demonstrations back then, which always makes me wonder why so many old-timers who lived through that are now so enraged about lesser current demonstrations. Have they lost perspective that those things are self clearing? I.e., they represent a real problem and society will work to address it, or they're just noise in the scheme of things and will die away naturally.

 

[Proff Ed]

Haven't seen all of the episodes, but... IT IS THE BEST PROGRAM I HAVE EVER SEEN ON TELEVISION!

 

[BucBloc]

Only at episode 5 but it's so moving. Vietnam is the first memory of the news I have as a kid born in 1960. Have family who went and it's still not really spoken about.
No better director then Ken Burns when the topic is serious and historic.
Expect a full range of emotions as you watch.

 

[Filmbutcher]

I found the series to be balanced politically which I appreciated. Burns did a nice job showing both perspectives. Rare these days.................

 

[HallLine69]

The series is thorough, objective and outstanding. Just a brilliant piece of work.

 

[rjp74]

I highly highly suggest everyone to watch it.

As with everything Burns does, just powerful stuff.

Being in my late 30's, it was something that was taught with little detail in HS or College. Watching this doc is just so informative and emotionally moving.

I'd love to hear some of the older poster's opinions on it if you watched it or lived it.

I graduated from The Hall in 1974. We lived the Vietnam War all 4 years that I was there. I, like all 18 year old boys, had to register for the draft. Fortunately I had a high draft number and wasn’t called. I didn’t know the extent of the anguish that a lot of young men suffered who had served until I saw the documentary. It was a sad era and I realize that those who fought will always carry those memories with them. The worst was the disrespect the men in the military had to endure when they returned home.

 

[bigraym]

Burns is a God

No offense, but perhaps a small "g".

 

[radecicco]

Just finished watching the whole thing and I can bring the perspective of being at the Hall in late '60s. Burns did a great job in IMO. I've read some criticism that he short changed various points of view or deemphazied certain aspects. The reality is that even with 36 hours he could not have covered every aspect and nuance.

The view from the ground level of soldiers and civilians on all sides was excellent. And the view from the leadership and policy expert level was just as good. As the archives and recorded phones calls prove: the three war time Presidents-- Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon-- all lied to the American people.

 

[SnakeTom]

the three war time Presidents-- Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon-- all lied to the American people.

Just to clarify there were four war time Presidents. The first troops were sent in by Eisenhower. But the statement is accurate that our Presidents all lied to us. I remember the Vietnam era well and fortunately my number was never called. The way our soldiers were treated upon their return was very wrong but our leadership sending troops into this war was also very wrong. 58,000 Americans died, WHY?

In response to the original question everything that Ken Burns does is excellent. I have only seen pieces of this series so far but will watch the entire production.

Tom K

 

[ed odowd]

I have only seen one episode but the one I saw accurately captured the mood of the country in that era.
I got my BS in 1965 and MBA in 1967 and was one of the lucky guys who was deferred because my wife got pregnant and my daughter was born during grad school.The demonstrations and violence that was going on on a daily basis back then make today's demonstrations look very minor.Anachrists like President Obsms's buddy Bill Ayers then the Weatherman's bomb maker who beat conviction because the warrant for the search and wiretap on him were not totally followed and the judge threw all the evidence out.Ayer's wife went to jail for around 20 years if I remember correctly.How Obama could befriend this scumbag I will never know. I doubt and hope we will never seen a nominating convention like the democratic convention in
Chicago in 1968 which was a riot televised live.

 

[bpm1978]

Ken Burns really did his homework. My number was called in December 1972. But I had a deferment.

 

[HallLine69]

The night of the draft lottery was the night of a Seton Hall basketball game. I was doing color on WSOU that night. At halftime I walked down to the WSOU office to check the AP wire machine to see if it had the draft results. Sure enough my birthday (November 1) drew #19 which meant I'd be drafted by the Army the first month after graduation. I received a pre-induction notice in the mail a few weeks later but found a National Guard unit in Newark with an opening and joined it. I ended up re-enlisting and spending a total of 13 years as a Guardsman. My unit was never sent to active duty.

 

[HALL85]

This series is outstanding. I've really appreciated the history going back to French Indochina. You really have to feel for the Vietnamese people. The amazing thing is that if you fast-forward, they have like the 20th largest economy in the world today. A real testament to their culture and resiliency.

I think my class was the first year they did away with draft cards. As others have posted here, it was a turbulent time here. Does sicken me in the way many treated those poor kids that served in the military. They didn't deserve that one bit.

 

[Seton75]

Loved the comment that they were as great as any generation of soldiers. How they were treated upon return is shameful, as many who shouted them down admitted.

The one vet, they guy who said one night he was drinking and pointed his gun at his head pulled on my heartstrings all show. His humanity was so compelling. The inclusion of so many Vietnamese of varied background was a great idea.

Read a Tim Obrien book, like "the things they carried". I read two non fiction books on vn last summer. The guys in the field knew how pointless it was around 65. Lbj and McNamara knew, nixon and kissinger knew. So many kids wasted. I remember my mom getting up from the dinner table to take a call from my aunt, telling my mom that her son was MIA. His helicopter was blown out of the air. His remains were found about 15 years ago.

And it seems we learned none of the obvious lessons as we started the middle east wars.

Beware of be all end all terms, like domino theory...

Peace be with all the vets of all the wars. All we can say is thank you!.

 

[Vince]

Graduated in 67, spent 68-71 in Army. Twice ordered to Vietnam, first time diverted due to Russian invasion of Czeckoslovakia, second time due to family emergency. Knew many who survived, however my best pal did not. The Pentagon Papers were an eye opener, detailing how info had been withheld from public. Burns, while a left leaning political type, seems to have done a credible job running the middle of the road showing both sides. Just some color for a few other posts, we may not know many college people who went to SE Asia because Westmorland demanded he receive no soldiers who trained at Dix or Ord due to a virtual wipe out of a company sent from Ft Dix. The campus and public demonstrations (riots) of the 60s, mostly over racial unrest, the draft and our war involvement were extremely severe. Lastly I agree about Ayers et al, they were more than demonstrators, they were terrorists and killers.

 

[bpm1978]

Graduated in 67, spent 68-71 in Army. Twice ordered to Vietnam, first time diverted due to Russian invasion of Czeckoslovakia, second time due to family emergency. Knew many who survived, however my best pal did not. The Pentagon Papers were an eye opener, detailing how info had been withheld from public. Burns, while a left leaning political type, seems to have done a credible job running the middle of the road showing both sides. Just some color for a few other posts, we may not know many college people who went to SE Asia because Westmorland demanded he receive no soldiers who trained at Dix or Ord due to a virtual wipe out of a company sent from Ft Dix. The campus and public demonstrations (riots) of the 60s, mostly over racial unrest, the draft and our war involvement were extremely severe. Lastly I agree about Ayers et al, they were more than demonstrators, they were terrorists and killers.

Oh Yeah. The Pentegon Papers. That was a black eye. The war was mostly about containing China.

 

[Shuathelete]

saw an ad for this the other day, but dont know how to watch it. im currently watching the civil war documentary and have heard the brooklyn bridge was his best.

Since its PBS is it on cable on demand??

 

[ArtieLange9]

saw an ad for this the other day, but dont know how to watch it. im currently watching the civil war documentary and have heard the brooklyn bridge was his best.

Since its PBS is it on cable on demand??

Yes, it is on demand for free

 

[Pirate64]

Joined 141 Trans Co National Guard Unit on Day St in Orange as a senior in the spring of 64.
Went to weekend drills for 4 years and then Johnson called up 25000 reservists to active duty ( out of 725,000 National Guard and Reserve troops on hand) . Our unit, the only one in the state to be called up in April of '68, went to Ft McClellan Alabama for 19 months. 150 of us.
But 50 of our guys ( most SHU and RU Newark grads) went to Nam as individual replacement troops. All came home thank God..
I didn't go to Nam but was scared as hell at the thought.
It was a terrible time in America. 57,000 dead because of our lying Presidents and Generals.
To me -Johnson, Westmoreland and McNamara should rot in hell. Nixon too. The bastards.

 

[PeterN]

Jane Fonda should not have been left back into the country after those comments.

 

[bpm1978]

Utterly disgraceful

 

[HALL85]

Graduated in 67, spent 68-71 in Army. Twice ordered to Vietnam, first time diverted due to Russian invasion of Czeckoslovakia, second time due to family emergency. Knew many who survived, however my best pal did not. The Pentagon Papers were an eye opener, detailing how info had been withheld from public. Burns, while a left leaning political type, seems to have done a credible job running the middle of the road showing both sides. Just some color for a few other posts, we may not know many college people who went to SE Asia because Westmorland demanded he receive no soldiers who trained at Dix or Ord due to a virtual wipe out of a company sent from Ft Dix. The campus and public demonstrations (riots) of the 60s, mostly over racial unrest, the draft and our war involvement were extremely severe. Lastly I agree about Ayers et al, they were more than demonstrators, they were terrorists and killers.

Thank you for your service Vince and thanks for sharing those observations.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Jane Fonda should not have been left back into the country after those comments.

thats cool that you don't understand how the country works.

 

[TomD82]

saw an ad for this the other day, but dont know how to watch it. im currently watching the civil war documentary and have heard the brooklyn bridge was his best.

Since its PBS is it on cable on demand??

Yes. You can watch at pbs.org. I watched all 10 episodes. I was not eligible to be called. My oldest brother was, but his number was not called.

The goverment misleading the people on the progress of the war was accurate. The South Vietnam goverment being corrupt and their army being over estimated was also accurate. Interesting how it should have been viewed as the end of French colonization instead of the domino effect before getting involved.

 

[Seton75]

Jane fonda was way misguided but I put blame on two lying admin who sent tens of thousands of kids to die in a war we had no chanel of winning and no reason to be fighting. They are the f'ing villains. Utterly disgraceful, self serving actions by our elected leaders. The army and mcnamara/lbj knew by 65 it was a loser, and nixon knew it in 68 too. And kissinger is just as bad.

 

[TomD82]

Jane fonda was way misguided but I put blame on two lying admin who sent tens of thousands of kids to die in a war we had no chanel of winning and no reason to be fighting. They are the f'ing villains. Utterly disgraceful, self serving actions by our elected leaders. The army and mcnamara/lbj knew by 65 it was a loser, and nixon knew it in 68 too. And kissinger is just as bad.

And it is amazing the footage and tapes they found that showed just what you posted.

 

[anon_x0d8d0dquuo4t]

I saw the one segment with the mother from Saratoga Springs, N.Y. whose 19-year-old son "Mogie" died early in the war. She described how she saw a uniformed team coming to her front door and instinctively knew her son's fate and the pending news. It was a moving segment for me.

I remember hearing from the veterans in the news room how a reporter would accompany these teams and need to ask for a photo. A very difficult assignment, but surprisingly, the family would often talk about the wonderful son they had lost and find it cathartic.

To someone born in 1959, the war was a distant evening news event, delivered by "Uncle Walter" and it took a week or two to get footage back to NY. Confusing times: Tet, Westmoreland, My Lai and Lt. William Calley, Country Joe McDonald, Woodstock, Summer of Love, Watts, Ali, Grant Park and the '68 Democratic Convention and the '68 Olympics -- seeing news flashes in real time of MLK and RFK's assassinations and the wonder of landing on the moon and the Miracle Mets, the Knicks and Broadway Joe and those championships in '69. We could go on for days with references like these that captured those years and era. Some great childhood memories and others not so great, watching war in your living room every night.

 

[bpm1978]

I wish I could have been in the room with Johnson after the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I would have advised him not to do it.

We were throwing in with thugs.

 

[400SOAVE]

Since the United States was suckered into entering WW1 in 1917- a war that had nothing to do with us and was being fought by a bunch of European leaders who'd been at war with each other for centuries, and who were literally all related to each other- we always stick our nose into other nations' 2,000-year-old conflicts.

Like most Presidents, Wilson lied and did not keep us out of the war as he promised.

Vietnam was the same. I wish we would have stayed out.

I have read a lot about Vietnam over the years. I watched the entire Burns documentary. Then I bought the Blu-ray and watched it again- binge style.

I thought the documentary was one-sided. Burns gave a pass to the communists and their butchery and gave a cursory look at the involvement of the USSR and China.

Virtually all the footage of the communists was of the Potemkin Village variety. He failed to mention that some of that footage had to be shot by the communist propaganda machine. That's a big journalist no-no. Meanwhile, Americans set villages on fire.

Guess what, that's what happens in war. During our Civil War the North burned down hundreds of towns and villages in the South. You destroy the enemy's assists. U.S. Grant describes it all in his memoirs. During WW2 the U.S. and Britain incinerated entire German towns filled with civilians.

Then Burns repeatedly talks about the communist "volunteers." A complete joke. Either you fight or you die with a bullet to the head.

To be clear about who got us into Vietnam. When Kennedy was sworn in there were about 600 U.S. "advisors" in Vietnam. When Nixon was sworn in there were about 520,000.

One more point because it was mentioned here. You can see and hear Jane Fonda calling for American troops to be tried and "executed." That's not freedom of speech. That's treason- a capital offense. She should have at least served time in prison.

Finally, after the United States lost more than 400,000 troops to help Britain and Europe during WW2... and rebuilt Europe with billions of U.S. taxpayers dollars, Britain told us "NO" when we asked for help during Vietnam.

We need to start acting like the U.K. and European nations who look out for their interests first, second and third. I wish we'd get the hell out of NATO.

Oh and for some reason Burns failed to mention that today Vietnam remains a repressive communist nation where there are no elections. I'm disgusted when they come to the White House. Even Trump stood there smiling this summer at those communist SOBs. Gag. What an idiot.

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Aaaaaaaaaaand there it is. Surprised it took that long.

 

[bpm1978]

400SOAVE

You didn't like the documentary. That's fine and certainly your prerogative. But can you leave your political views out of it?

 

[ArtieLange9]

400SOAVE

You didn't like the documentary. That's fine and certainly your prerogative. But can you leave your political views out of it?

Funny thing is the first episode came out Sept 16, I doubt it's available on Blue Ray already.

We had an amazing and respectful thread going. I hope it continues towards that.

Thanks for all that made it a great thread so far, it was really awesome and impactful to hear people's stories from back then.

I think every school kid should watch it in HS or college. It's more important to hear about what our country did wrong, so it can be avoided in the future.

 

[batts]

I can't bring myself to watch it. I don't want to think about think about the senseless waste of life. I'm forever proud of those who served.

 

[Seton75]

I actually agree with 400 that the nvm atrocities were not emphasized enough. And wilson did lie re WW1. And war is hell. One pres lying about our entering WWI does not forgive the pathetic use of our soldiers and military as political props as two presidents and their top advisors led bald face to the public.

It has always been interesting to me how the media helped chase lbj, the pres whose leadership did more for liberal causes than any other, out of the white house.

 

[Pirata]

The war ended when I was a high school senior. My brother was a freshman in college and had a draft number. Neither of us had to go.

I went to college on an ROTC scholarship and recall the eerie feeling of walking across campus in uniform on Monday drill afternoons. It took many years before the tide turned on the view of the military.

After graduation I was commissioned and assigned as a platoon leader in the Army. My platoon SGT was a 38 year old vet who had been wounded in Nam. Here I am, 21 years old college kid and this guy is reporting to me.I got to listen to lotsa stories from lotsa of vets.

Don't dismiss 400's comments and start a fight here. He makes some valid points.

Burns did a great job as he always does. However, you need to listen to more than one piece and one viewpoint.

It was good to see Neil Sheehan interviewed. I read his tome, "Bright Shining Lie". The opening chapter talks about, "Our Splendid Little War". The point of that title was that in the early years of the war,many in the Army delighted in the opportunity to gain some quick, low risk, combat experience and check that box on their career climbs.

That phenomena played out in Hal Moore's book,"We Were Soldiers Once, and Young". The movie left out the part wherin after the Ia Drang battle, instead of airlifting the remaining soldiers out, they swapped in a new (incompetent) commander and marched tactically back to another LZ. The VC from the battle were not decimated, they simply withdrew back into the mountain. They followed the US movement and ambushed them. Nasty result. In the interest of the asshole's career check off, a hundred or so were killed. Here is the chilling account from Jack Smith (son of Howard K. Smith) which includes the part where a VC, thinking he was dead, used him as a sandbag and laid his machine gun on his body and fired at the US. http://www.vietnamwall.org/news.php?id=1

Side Note: In the battle and the march. Lieutenant Rick Rescorla (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorlahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla ) fought. Gutsy SOB. He later died in the Twin Towers on 9-11 working for Morgan Stanley. He was credited with saving hundreds of lives that day by actively getting people to evacuate.

 

[Pirata]

A few applicable quotes from Thomas Jefferson:

…but sound principles will not justify our taxing the industry of our fellow citizens to accumulate treasure for wars to happen we know not when, and which might not, perhaps, happen but from the temptations offered by that treasure.

” I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.”

” I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another.”

“The most successful war seldom pays for its losses.”