OT: Ken Burns Vietnam

[400SOAVE]

Interesting how zealously intolerant some people are about a different opinion.

And what was not accurate about my comments?

No politics in a discussion about Vietnam? Are you serious? Even the documentary emphasized how life and death decisions were made based on political considerations and election prospects.

As for the mud-slinging comment about the Blu-ray not yet being available. It was available and they were selling it on PBS on day one of the documentary. It's available everywhere- Best Buy, Amazon, etc.

 

[Joe_T]

Jane Fonda was quoted often in newspaper headlines as saying awful things. She came to Newark to give a speech so I wandered over to hear it, expecting to hear a string of trite anti-war soundbites. Instead, her whole speech progressed logically to make valid points. The next day's headlines quoted a trite and awful anti-war soundbite taken out of context from her speech.

 

[Pirata]

The next day's headlines quoted a trite and awful anti-war soundbite taken out of context from her speech.

That happens every day to both sides. I attend meetings that are covered in the press and when I read about it the next day I have a hard believing they were in the same meeting.

Hanoi Jane's visit does not stand well with vets.

 

[Pirata]

Interesting how zealously intolerant some people are about a different opinion.

400, you have 30 year olds on this board who saw a documentary which was their first introduction to anything intelligent about the Vietnam War. Many of them have liberal leanings. One of them refers to Ken Burns as a God. You insulted their God and so they strike back.

As I said in my post, you made some valid points, particularly with Burn's lack of attention to the USSR involvement.

The Mig-17s flown by the NVA weren't exactly built in Hanoi.

Burns is a liberal and I find his documentaries have a liberal bias. Nonetheless, his work is excellent and provides one perspective and much good information. I agree that when people take his work as the only perspective and as gospel, they risk not seeing the whole truth.

Assuming someone will fire back at me asking me, "then what is the whole truth?" I will reply in advance that no one knows the whole truth. You have to read and research as much as you can and ultimately form your own interpretation.

 

[knowknow456]

Interesting how zealously intolerant some people are about a different opinion.

Thank God we have you, a neutral and and totally tolerant arbiter of any topic you post on.

 

[400SOAVE]

Thank God we have you, a neutral and and totally tolerant arbiter of any topic you post on.

Think you can debate based on the facts?

 

[400SOAVE]

400, you have 30 year olds on this board who saw a documentary which was their first introduction to anything intelligent about the Vietnam War. Many of them have liberal leanings. One of them refers to Ken Burns as a God. You insulted their God and so they strike back.

As I said in my post, you made some valid points, particularly with Burn's lack of attention to the USSR involvement.

The Mig-17s flown by the NVA weren't exactly built in Hanoi.

Burns is a liberal and I find his documentaries have a liberal bias. Nonetheless, his work is excellent and provides one perspective and much good information. I agree that when people take his work as the only perspective and as gospel, they risk not seeing the whole truth.

Assuming someone will fire back at me asking me, "then what is the whole truth?" I will reply in advance that no one knows the whole truth. You have to read and research as much as you can and ultimately form your own interpretation.

Thank you.

It's so frustrating when so many people are wholly ignorant about communism and the 90-100 million lives it has claimed in the last 100 years. And the economies it has destroyed, leaving people in poverty and breadlines and using ration cards.

Others are not ignorant. They're good old fashioned rank liars.

I don't care how many times anybody calls me names. I'm going to state the truth about the cancer of communism/socialism/Marxism, etc.

 

[batts]

That happens every day to both sides. I attend meetings that are covered in the press and when I read about it the next day I have a hard believing they were in the same meeting.

Hanoi Jane's visit does not stand well with vets.

Hanoi Jane should have been sent to prison for Treason for aiding and abetting our enemy. I wonder how many strings Henry Fonda had to pull to get her off the hook.

 

[radecicco]

So Burns is a liberal. So what? He did a great service to America with this project. As I said on an earlier post, if he had 36 hours he still could not have covered every aspect to everyone's liking.

In fact, I've read criticism from the left saying he didn't do justice to the anti-war movement. IMHO, if he's getting criticism from both sides he's done a good job.

 

[Pirata]

So Burns is a liberal. So what?

Burns is a liberal and I find his documentaries have a liberal bias. Nonetheless, his work is excellent and provides one perspective and much good information.

That's "What" !

 

[radecicco]

Geez, I was agreeing with your statement. Chill.

 

[Pirata]

Sorry. My bad.

Nonetheless, his liberal bent is worth noting. I am not criticizing it, just noting it.

I think it skews the impressions you are left with.

For example, after episode one, I left with the feeling he was portraying Ho Chi Minh in a more favorable light than was warranted. You got a sense that Ho was this angelic man fighting for the freedom of his people. Hard to argue that it a bad thing.

Do some research on Ho and you might find a different view of him.

 

[mikesouth]

Really great job by Burns. But got worn out after watching 7-8 episodes. Kent St, officers getting shot in the back, combat guys with confederate flags, etc. Crazy stuff.......

 

[Pirata]

combat guys with confederate flags

I guess you never served. I don't mean that as a dig in any way.

When you serve in any of the branches, you get to see every walk of life from the far reaches of every city, town, and prairie. Americans are a very diverse set of citizens. The average troop never ceased to amaze me with their expressions of self.

 

[SnakeTom]

There is no denying that atrocities were committed by both sides, but the fact remains that we got involved in someone else's "civil war" for no valid reason.

TK

 

[batts]

There is no denying that atrocities were committed by both sides, but the fact remains that we got involved in someone else's "civil war" for no valid reason.

TK

Not true, Tom. Nothing invigorates the aeronautics and defense contractor industries like a good drawn out war.

 

[Joe_T]

[...] the fact remains that we got involved in someone else's "civil war" for no valid reason.

TK

As you likely know, the debatable valid reason was containment of the expansionist designs of the big communist states, the Soviet Union and China. I heard one mention of George Kennan, who is thought to be the architect of the policy dating back to the late 1940s, and also recall hearing a conversation between a president and his advisor expressing the dilemma of American lives vs. containment.

Who knew that within a couple of decades communism as an economic system would demonstrate its long term non-viability? The balance of power was important with two seemingly equally powerful sides and one side believing in revolutionist expansions.

We all took away different things, and I found myself feeling for the presidents. Would a quick and early withdrawal end up in more emboldened communist expansion, and then maybe require America enter a larger declared war or even WWIII?

Again, just another take on the issue, and in hindsight, your take is more likely correct. It blew my mind when we repeated the mistake yet again in Afghanistan (did we have to engage? just enter, pursue objective, avoiding the Taliban as much as possible). Major powers (France, then U.S. in Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan) can't defeat certain insurgencies, but somehow the U.S. thinks it can.

 

[Vince]

I guess you never served. I don't mean that as a dig in any way.

When you serve in any of the branches, you get to see every walk of life from the far reaches of every city, town, and prairie. Americans are a very diverse set of citizens. The average troop never ceased to amaze me with their expressions of self.

I think that was a very accurate statement especially during the time of a draft. I served with everything from Lawyers to actuaries to high school drop outs, across every ethnic group and religious or non religious persuasion (most all were religious BTW.) I learned that most individuals are mostly concerned with getting through the day without a political or societal agenda. Lastly my closest few friends and I who graduated in 67 all volunteered or were drafted. Scary times as we had 3+ million men in uniform between the over half million in Vietnam plus those supporting the cold war mission.

 

[Shuathelete]

didnt Wilson avoid going to war for a while until the German subs just disregarded all rules and attacked US ships? And our intelligence decoded messages about the germans trying to team up with mexico?

 

[Halldan1]

Just an FYI. I'll keep this thread here until this evening and it will then be transferred to the off the ship board.

 

[ScarletNut]

The series was mesmerizing. Burns did a magnificent job. The last draft was 1972 but they kept the lottery for one more year. Until that point, my number was always in the 200's and 300's. When I was in the lottery, I came up #10. Fortunately the draft was over. The first 95 always went to Vietnam.
A bit of trivia. My high school chem teacher's husband was in Vietnam. He was an excellent basketball player and became friendly with the African American soldiers who played pickup games because of his skills. The Viets loved basketball. The Americans would fly in to some villages on helicopters, in the midst of firefights. When they landed, played pickup games, all the locals, friends and enemies would come watch, all the shooting would stop during the games. Once the games were over and they went back up on the helicopters, the firefight would resume all around them. Just a strange phenomena all the way around.

 

[Shuathelete]

The series was mesmerizing. Burns did a magnificent job. The last draft was 1972 but they kept the lottery for one more year. Until that point, my number was always in the 200's and 300's. When I was in the lottery, I came up #10. Fortunately the draft was over. The first 95 always went to Vietnam.
A bit of trivia. My high school chem teacher's husband was in Vietnam. He was an excellent basketball player and became friendly with the African American soldiers who played pickup games because of his skills. The Viets loved basketball. The Americans would fly in to some villages on helicopters, in the midst of firefights. When they landed, played pickup games, all the locals, friends and enemies would come watch, all the shooting would stop during the games. Once the games were over and they went back up on the helicopters, the firefight would resume all around them. Just a strange phenomena all the way around.

wow crazy story

 

[Pirata]

didnt Wilson avoid going to war for a while until the German subs just disregarded all rules and attacked US ships?

Yes, but that was WW I.

BTW, there is a strong argument and evidence that the Lusitania was carrying munitions.

Of note also is the progressive Wilson signed the 1913 Revenue Act that gave us income tax, thank you very much.

 

[Shuathelete]

Yes, but that was WW I.

BTW, there is a strong argument and evidence that the Lusitania was carrying munitions.

Of note also is the progressive Wilson signed the 1913 Revenue Act that gave us income tax, thank you very much.

Yup i was referencing the post earlier that made wilson out to be a liar. From what ive read (really most of my knowledge comes from WW1 by SLA Marshall) he was avoiding it for a very long time, and that the lusitania regardless of the munitions that it is pretty much proven it held, swung the popular opinion of american citizens that we should enter the war.

i dont however know as much on the vietnam war so im looking forward to the burns documentary

 

[Pirata]

Shu,

Here are a couple of good books also.

"Bright Shining Lie" https://goo.gl/ZTG2ya

Sheehan was in the Burns documentary. Long Book. Chronicles John Paul Vann and the corruption.

"Soldier" https://goo.gl/sKRr1z Hits heavily on the atrocities and the body count mentality.

Soldier was written by Anthony Herbert. You have to be your own judge as to whether you believe him or not.

Another is "Marine Sniper" by Carlos Hathcock. https://goo.gl/rDYg6H

The shot through the scope in Saving Private Ryan was a recreation of a real shot that Hathcock made. The guy had steel balls.

 

[Shuathelete]

Shu,

Here are a couple of good books also.

"Bright Shining Lie" https://goo.gl/ZTG2ya

Sheehan was in the Burns documentary. Long Book. Chronicles John Paul Vann and the corruption.

"Soldier" https://goo.gl/sKRr1z Hits heavily on the atrocities and the body count mentality.

Soldier was written by Anthony Herbert. You have to be your own judge as to whether you believe him or not.

Another is "Marine Sniper" by Carlos Hathcock. https://goo.gl/rDYg6H

The shot through the scope in Saving Private Ryan was a recreation of a real shot that Hathcock made. The guy had steel balls.

Thanks!

Love book reccos, just wish i could read faster LOL.

Do you believe Herbert?

 

[Joe_T]

It's fiction, but the book "Matterhorn" by Karl Marlantes has great reviews (4.6 stars on Amazon) and might be available digitally from your public library (mine offers the audiobook via OverDrive). Marlantes was the one in the Burns series who said he thought we are wired for hostility (or something like that), and war is just finishing school.

 

[Pirata]

Do you believe Herbert?

For the most part, yes. Every side has spin, but on the whole, I believe he was a straight shooter.

He had 4 purple hearts. Took out four guys in a machine gun nest with just a bayonet. You can't fake that.

I also think he was naive with regard to the politics of the officer ranks. Coal miner's son from Western PA. Gets caught up in some thick issues at a national level.