OT: Tom Coughlin

[Piratz]

I'd be interested to know how the candidate view the Giants job. Of course there are many cultural perks of the organziation, including a flagship franchise, recent championships, franchise QB in his prime, more-patient ownership than most, and so forth.

At the moment you have Eli and OBJ pitching it around the field and that's it. It's obvious the GM is on the hot seat and it's also obvious that the team is simultaneously in need of a major rebuild on defense and more additions on offense to balance the unit. Then you have to do all of this while dealing with the NYC media and ravenous fans after 3 consecutive losing years.

 

[HALL85]

I'd be interested to know how the candidate view the Giants job. Of course there are many cultural perks of the organziation, including a flagship franchise, recent championships, franchise QB in his prime, more-patient ownership than most, and so forth.

At the moment you have Eli and OBJ pitching it around the field and that's it. It's obvious the GM is on the hot seat and it's also obvious that the team is simultaneously in need of a major rebuild on defense and more additions on offense to balance the unit. Then you have to do all of this while dealing with the NYC media and ravenous fans after 3 consecutive losing years.

But you have the commitment of ownership to stick with you for the long haul unless you do something embarrassing like pull a Ray Handley. Job security and having enough time is one of the most important things I think I coach would look for.

 

[Burnsly]

Having Co-Owners is never an ideal situation for a coach.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Can someone give me a quick summary of the spat between the Maras and Tischs? It was before my time, but it's alluded to every so often and I don't know much about it.

 

[Piratz]

Can someone give me a quick summary of the spat between the Maras and Tischs? It was before my time, but it's alluded to every so often and I don't know much about it.

I don't think it's a spat, just different styles. There must be some agreement that the Mara's have the say because the Tisch's almost never speak.

The spat you may be thinking of was within the Mara family, maybe?

Steve Tisch inherited this stake from his father, Robert Tisch. Robert purchased 50% of the Giants in 1991 from Tim J. Mara, Wellington's nephew. Tim inherited that stake from his father, Jack, Wellington's brother, who passed away in the mid-1960's. Jack and Wellington had a 50/50 split upon the passing of their father, the founder (also named Tim).

Wellington and his nephew Tim did not get along for decades and it made the organization dysfunctional. Different generations, different styles, and so forth. The team missed the playoffs for 17 consecutive seasons during that time. NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle stepped in and brokered a treaty and they named George Young to run the football operation in the late-70's. Tim Mara died in the mid-90's shortly after that sale, but stories were that he and Wellington had reconciled shortly before then.

Steve Tish and John Mara took over for their fathers in 2005 when both passed. Steve Tisch is a Producer and "Hollywood" in many ways. Check out TMZ for a sampling. John Mara is more reserved, a lawyer by trade, and the football lifer. Rumors have swirled that Tisch wanted Coughlin out before, but Mara always supported him as coach.

I believe Mara came off contradictory on Tuesday because he would've preferred an orderly succession where Coughlin would've stayed on and passed the baton to one of the coordinators in another year or two. I believe he felt TC coached up this flawed roster. However, another losing year - and how they lost - meant he couldn't keep Tisch and others patient for that any longer.

 

[Piratz]

Bill Pacells and Steve Beuerlein both went on Philadelhpia radio today pushing Coughlin to the Eagles. Would probably be a fit if he wants to coach. They need a culture-change.

 

[TomD82]

I don't think it's a spat, just different styles. There must be some agreement that the Mara's have the say because the Tisch's almost never speak.

The spat you may be thinking of was within the Mara family, maybe?

Steve Tisch inherited this stake from his father, Robert Tisch. Robert purchased 50% of the Giants in 1991 from Tim J. Mara, Wellington's nephew. Tim inherited that stake from his father, Jack, Wellington's brother, who passed away in the mid-1960's. Jack and Wellington had a 50/50 split upon the passing of their father, the founder (also named Tim).

Wellington and his nephew Tim did not get along for decades and it made the organization dysfunctional. Different generations, different styles, and so forth. The team missed the playoffs for 17 consecutive seasons during that time. NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle stepped in and brokered a treaty and they named George Young to run the football operation in the late-70's. Tim Mara died in the mid-90's shortly after that sale, but stories were that he and Wellington had reconciled shortly before then.

Steve Tish and John Mara took over for their fathers in 2005 when both passed. Steve Tisch is a Producer and "Hollywood" in many ways. Check out TMZ for a sampling. John Mara is more reserved, a lawyer by trade, and the football lifer. Rumors have swirled that Tisch wanted Coughlin out before, but Mara always supported him as coach.

I believe Mara came off contradictory on Tuesday because he would've preferred an orderly succession where Coughlin would've stayed on and passed the baton to one of the coordinators in another year or two. I believe he felt TC coached up this flawed roster. However, another losing year - and how they lost - meant he couldn't keep Tisch and others patient for that any longer.

You forgot Johnaton Tish who is also involved in the operations and I am sure owns part of the team. Mara flat out said it was time for Coughlin to go while he acknowledged roster flaws he did not prefer he stay. And with Francessa he clearly said on WFAN that Tom made the decision easy he was going to fire him. And he even talked about the loss of creditability by the organization for the past 4 years seasons. Even Vacciano was tweeting they were putting in on Coughlin at the press conference. And there were pictures of Mara throwing a chair around during some of those losses. Sure if they made the playoffs the last 2 years he would have preferred an orderly succession after next year. With only 1 year left on Coughlin's contract would they keep adding a year to it? By the way check out your post in reply to me about a succession plan. You said since when do you need a succession plan in the NFL? With all the coordinator changes made and lack of continuity with contracts for the HC and assistants Mara knew he finally had to make a change he did not think Coughlin coached up the roster this year and did a great job the previous 3.

 

[Piratz]

Francesa also affirmed he had heard the same rumors about Tisch/Mara on TC the next day. Either way, doesn't matter now. The post was about the dynamics between Mara and Tisch and what I think Mara would've preferred. Tom ran out of goodwill after putting up another 6-10 mark, which is certainly reasonable to change. My only gripe would be that I would've fired the GM too and cleaned everything out because, like I said all during the season, it was not just the coaching. It was a combination. Clear as day.

And that's why the Giants are going to totally change that team because they know the guys on defense just aren't good enough. If they thought the talent was good enough and undercoached, they'd bring back these players. They won't. They're not going to bring them all back and go through this again thinking they just weren't coached well. They're going to spend all that money on a lot of new players for a reason. Why they're going to trust Reese to spend that money is beyond me.

 

[Piratz]

Good stuff here from Bob Papa.

 

[Section112]

Not sure I get the focus on Adam Gase. Chicago's offense was not good this year. I understand he worked well with Peyton but he seems young. I think there are better candidates out there. No mention yet of the Pats O coordinator yet.

 

[Piratz]

I don't know where they're going with this. None of these young coordinators strike me as ready for what this team will need next year. Cannot imagine Gase dealing with all the reporters and tabloids up here.

 

[hallgrad80]

Francesa also affirmed he had heard the same rumors about Tisch/Mara on TC the next day. Either way, doesn't matter now. The post was about the dynamics between Mara and Tisch and what I think Mara would've preferred. Tom ran out of goodwill after putting up another 6-10 mark, which is certainly reasonable to change. My only gripe would be that I would've fired the GM too and cleaned everything out because, like I said all during the season, it was not just the coaching. It was a combination. Clear as day.

And that's why the Giants are going to totally change that team because they know the guys on defense just aren't good enough. If they thought the talent was good enough and undercoached, they'd bring back these players. They won't. They're not going to bring them all back and go through this again thinking they just weren't coached well. They're going to spend all that money on a lot of new players for a reason. Why they're going to trust Reese to spend that money is beyond me.

Agree.

The question that I keep coming back to is whether the high quality free agents that can make an impact will want to come here when they can go to a playoff caliber team not one that needs a lot of rebuilding. I can see Reese having to settle for that second and third tier talent and too many of them just to fill out a roster. If that does become the situation the Giants find them in, it will be another long season next year.

 

[Piratz]

The question that I keep coming back to is whether the high quality free agents that can make an impact will want to come here when they can go to a playoff caliber team not one that needs a lot of rebuilding. I can see Reese having to settle for that second and third tier talent and too many of them just to fill out a roster. If that does become the situation the Giants find them in, it will be another long season next year.

It should be interesting. On one hand its an organization that's won 2 Super Bowls in the past 8 years, which leads the league. On the other hand, they do have money, but it's a team with a totally new direction and roster overhaul, including potentially a rookie HC.

The alarming lack of quality depth on their roster going back to the poor drafts was exposed by a number of key injuries, as we know. Too many street FA's, busts, etc.. For the 3rd season in a row, the Giants are atop the NFL in games missed due to injury. That's another situation they need to evaluate again. It's been a major factor in why the team is just 19-29 during that span. Part of it is relying on players who are historically injury prone, but another is just bad luck.

I think they led the league in games missed to injury in 2013, 2014, and are 2nd in 2015. That's unbelievable. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-adjusted-games-lost

They're not going to be able to accomplish both starting-level talent and requisite depth on all units in one offseason. This we know. Right now the most important thing is that starter-level talent at pass rush and safety. If they can get a few of these guys in here and stay healthy, it's a vast improvement.

 

[Section112]

That is right. What is interesting to me and a huge risk for ownership is that they have a desperate GM right now. They are putting those huge cap dollars, deciding on a coach and the lingering thought that is big and in the background that Eli probably has maybe 3 more good years at the helm. That is a tight timeframe to do what is needed (coming from where they are). And they are putting it all in Reese's hands - the guy that had a lot to do with getting them into this position in the first place. Hopefully he has learned a tough lesson here and hopefully he tells ownership he is gonna take the long-term approach. If it's dump the money and quick fix (getting a Beason-like player) they will be worse off than this year in the long-run. And noone is even talking about the eventual succession plan to Eli.

 

[Piratz]

I think the offense is a good unit with young players getting better. You definitely need some more OL help (Beatty + depth) and maybe a quality blocking/catch veteran TE, but you're close there. Unless you're going to change the system and then it'll take some time. And the ST's were excellent this year as well.

The defense is a sieve. Even in the close games where we all flip out about the endgame meltdowns, they were close because the defense got turnovers or even defensive TD's/ST returns for TD's in most some cases. That was definitely the case against the Cowboys, Jets, Patriots, and Saints. You cannot rely on that. You have to be able to line up and beat opponents. They could not, thus all the times the opponent came down the field.

I would dump all the money there because my logic is if you can get that defense from the worst to average and keep the offense static, you have an instant improvement.

 

[hbkmyr]

Interesting. Not sure if this has been posted.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/...76480a9d07a4b2ae1330876db40#incart_most-read_

 

[hallgrad80]

Interesting. Not sure if this has been posted.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/...76480a9d07a4b2ae1330876db40#incart_most-read_

I read this story on Bleacher Reports this morning and it's another story taking a different approach that shows just how inept Reese and Ross's drafts have been and how they have handicapped this team. As writer after writer (and a lot of Giant fans too ) ask how could TC be let go and not the R & R boys you also have to ask how anyone could have confidence that the R & R duo will get the job done .

 

[Piratz]

And the counter view of Marrone: http://www.bigblueview.com/2016/1/8...of-hiring-doug-marrone-buffalo-bills-syracuse

 

[hallgrad80]

I think the offense is a good unit with young players getting better. You definitely need some more OL help (Beatty + depth) and maybe a quality blocking/catch veteran TE, but you're close there. Unless you're going to change the system and then it'll take some time. And the ST's were excellent this year as well.

The defense is a sieve. Even in the close games where we all flip out about the endgame meltdowns, they were close because the defense got turnovers or even defensive TD's/ST returns for TD's in most some cases. That was definitely the case against the Cowboys, Jets, Patriots, and Saints. You cannot rely on that. You have to be able to line up and beat opponents. They could not, thus all the times the opponent came down the field.

I would dump all the money there because my logic is if you can get that defense from the worst to average and keep the offense static, you have an instant improvement.

Piratz
You also need to add another WR to start and a quality backup. If the Giants don't do that every defense will be geared to limit ODB and right now he is the key offensive threat on this team.

 

[hallgrad80]

View embedded media

And the counter view of Marrone: http://www.bigblueview.com/2016/1/8...of-hiring-doug-marrone-buffalo-bills-syracuse

Why is he even a candidate?

 

[hbkmyr]

If they're going for a Marrone or Lovie Smith type coach, should've just kept TC. Even with all the blemishes this year, he's a better coach than both of them. Neither would have gotten Reese his magical 10-11 wins. After reading everything so far, I've come to the conclusion the Giants philosophy is...we know we need change so we're going in a new direction BUT this new direction will be as close to the old direction as humanly possible.

 

[Piratz]

Piratz
You also need to add another WR to start and a quality backup. If the Giants don't do that every defense will be geared to limit ODB and right now he is the key offensive threat on this team.

I agree. Watch the local kid Sanu on Cincinnati tomorrow night. Went to Rutgers, from NJ, could make some sense. He'd be a really nice option. Tall, heady player. A different match-up than OBJ. Versatile too. Was basically their 2nd/3rd WR so likely won't break the bank, but an emerging player, IMO.

 

[Piratz]

John Mara is on Michael Kay's show this afternoon. Man, this has been one of the oddest public displays. He has put the GM on blast. Should've just cleaned house and moved on with life.

 

[hbkmyr]

"Should've just cleaned house and moved on with life."
1,000% correct. They are half-a***ing it. Never a good thing. They've turned what should've been an exciting off season with a new regime and buckets of money into a depressing excuse-fest.

 

[Piratz]

Bizarre state of affairs. Clumsily handled all around. These situations are never easy, but the fact that he continually says things like this tells me it’s a reflection of a house that was divided on the decision.

At this stage it doesn't matter, but really bad stuff to say, IMO. Counterproductive. It will dog them all year.

Anyway, a nice compilation on Derek Jeter's site penned by former players to Tom Coughlin which should wrap up this farewell week of tributes: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/giants-tom-coughlin-tribute-coach/

 

[TomD82]

Bizarre state of affairs. Clumsily handled all around. These situations are never easy, but the fact that he continually says things like this tells me it’s a reflection of a house that was divided on the decision.

At this stage it doesn't matter, but really bad stuff to say, IMO. Counterproductive. It will dog them all year.

Anyway, a nice compilation on Derek Jeter's site penned by former players to Tom Coughlin which should wrap up this farewell week of tributes: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/giants-tom-coughlin-tribute-coach/

Very bizarre, but Mara is being more candid as the interviews go on. Even Bob Papa in the above chat mention how when Mara said the organization has taken a hit with credibility he was referring to on the field not the structure or draft process. And did you see that both Marc Ross and Ken Harris are interviewing for GM jobs with the 49ers & Titans? Reese was adamant that they should have a better record from the beginning of the press conference.

If Reese drafts a OBJ and a Richburg on defense this upcoming draft they play well and signs say a WR that has 8 TD catches or a DE who gets 8 sacks and the Giants miss the playoffs like the Jets this year does Reese get fired? Mara said on FAN again he did not know who Ben McAdoo was from Bob McAdoo (ironic this being a basketball forum) and there was no grooming him. He has said the coach search will be "extensive". What are they going to do hire McAdoo or Spags and than say either just blew them away during the interview? It could get more bizarre.

 

[Piratz]

To me if you're trusting in Reese, you have to let him work with the new coach. You cannot fire him next year if the next coach goes 6-10 with a new roster. Then you're screwed with a coach and GM out of whack. But the public is going to be seething because Mara put Reese on the hot seat instead of cleaning house.

This is why Mara shouldn't say these things. He shouldn't hammer his GM. Why continue to kill the GM, which he did again today? It's not helping anyone. And these ridiculous comments about credibility, yet you keep everyone but the coach? Makes sense. Yes, John, when a team has 3 consecutive losing season you look like a joke.

I don't believe Reese for a second. He's being defensive because his ass is on the line and Mara pinned him in the corner. So he was hot and came out and defended himself. Why don't I believe him? Because he's going to replace the players on his defense. If he's so confident in them, keep them. He won't. This will be a new team. If he gets some good players, in close games next year it'll look like Tuck, Rolle, and Osi making big plays at crunch time again, not letting teams go 80 yards to win repeatedly in the final minute because you have guys like they had this year getting beat like drums.

 

[hallgrad80]

The front office staff that put together this roster remains in place and all we can do as Giant fans is wait and see what new talent is signed thru the draft and free agency and what players currently on the roster stay or are waived. That's the deal we're stuck with and let's hope Reese & Co produce thru the draft and free agency to substantially improve this roster.

 

[Piratz]

Agreed, hallgrad80. Need a more balanced team. Staff tried to coach around that defense far too much this year.

This whole thing is going to come full circle when one of the coordinators is named HC (Spags) and Coughlin agrees to assist them in the personnel department and be a consigliere for the coach, LOL.

 

[hallgrad80]

When you're hiring a new head coach you've got to give him the authority to make all the decisions that take place on the field including who starts or sits and let him hire his staff including the coordinators. The worse thing you can do is have a former head coach looking over his shoulder if TC comes back as an advisor. I've wondered who Tom would be an advisor to if that scenario comes to fruition, Mara,Reese , Ross all three or would he be an advisor to the Giant's organization without any specific assignment.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Bizarre state of affairs. Clumsily handled all around. These situations are never easy, but the fact that he continually says things like this tells me it’s a reflection of a house that was divided on the decision.

At this stage it doesn't matter, but really bad stuff to say, IMO. Counterproductive. It will dog them all year.

Anyway, a nice compilation on Derek Jeter's site penned by former players to Tom Coughlin which should wrap up this farewell week of tributes: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/giants-tom-coughlin-tribute-coach/

jeters website should invest in hiring copy editors, love weatherford's after a penalty moved us back five years

have never seen such an amazing outpouring of kindness like this towards a head coach from current and former players

 

[Piratz]

The only way it works is if the people involved all previously worked together. You cannot have Coughlin around if you're truly restarting. I think it's a long shot.

Heck, Coughlin could coach next season. With what the Eagles have gone through with the locker room problems and general lack of direction, he could be a sensible fit there.

 

[TomD82]

To me if you're trusting in Reese, you have to let him work with the new coach. You cannot fire him next year if the next coach goes 6-10 with a new roster. Then you're screwed with a coach and GM out of whack. But the public is going to be seething because Mara put Reese on the hot seat instead of cleaning house.

This is why Mara shouldn't say these things. He shouldn't hammer his GM. Why continue to kill the GM, which he did again today? It's not helping anyone. And these ridiculous comments about credibility, yet you keep everyone but the coach? Makes sense. Yes, John, when a team has 3 consecutive losing season you look like a joke.

I don't believe Reese for a second. He's being defensive because his ass is on the line and Mara pinned him in the corner. So he was hot and came out and defended himself. Why don't I believe him? Because he's going to replace the players on his defense. If he's so confident in them, keep them. He won't. This will be a new team. If he gets some good players, in close games next year it'll look like Tuck, Rolle, and Osi making big plays at crunch time again, not letting teams go 80 yards to win repeatedly in the final minute because you have guys like they had this year getting beat like drums.

Bills owner was just quoted about Rex Ryan and the GM. Make the playoffs next season or bust. Ryan has 4 years left on his contract. Mara has been blaming Coughlin in his subtle ways while just talking about the obvious holes in certain areas. He really hasn't given him much of an ultimatum like Rex got.

As I posted if the Giants draft 2 Pro Bowl type players like OBJ and Richburg and hit a home run with a 4th & 5th round pick next season does Mara think Reese turned it around like he said needs to be done at the press conference? Will Mara say OK now those are your core players or does he say Reese is Chip Kelly as a GM. I think Reese is being defensive because the facts to him are we had the lead with 75 seconds to go in 5 games, went toe to toe with 2 unbeaten teams and had a rash of injuries.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/06/rex-ryan-could-be-down-to-his-last-chance/

 

[hallgrad80]

I don't care wether it's SH basketball ball, Yankee baseball or Giant football I have come to adopt Snake Tom's philosophy," You are what your record is" and the Giants were not a good FB team the last three years and their record proved that. As to the Giants it was an organization failure from top to bottom and only TC paid the price .

 

[Piratz]

The NFL is a joke now. Giving coaches ultimatums in year 2? Unreal.

With a new coach next year you cannot have a "win or else" mantra for him and the GM. Sometimes it takes a year or two to get going well. So what's Mara going to do? Fire Reese and then have a Idzik/Ryan situation with the new coach? I would've fired Reese too, but since they believe in him Mara should just shut up and move on. IMO, he should just stick with Reese now for better or worse. Is Reese respected from coaching candidates? I don't know.

I think the coaching staff this year did a great job coaching up this talent to put them in position to play with those teams. That's what a two-time winning SB coach gives you. I believe they lost those leads because of a bad defense and then a couple of bad decisions in game management that were based on trying to coach around that defense (playing with clock with Jennings then throwing in Dallas, going for it against the Jets, all trying to push the score up). That defense was only effective when they got turnovers.

The Patriots and Panthers were squarely on the players. Catch the ball!

The numbers speak for themselves. Last in the NFL in most categories. That showed up far too often. Couldn't stop the Cowboys, couldn't stop the Saints, couldn't stop the Jets, couldn't stop Brady or Cam at crunch time. Those close games would've been blow outs losses if not for turnovers for TD's or special teams TD's anyway. Again, look at the players on defense. Remarkable they were competitive for stretches.

To make it look like Tom Coughlin held them back and a new coach will magically have them winning as-is is lunacy.

 

[Piratz]

I don't care wether it's SH basketball ball, Yankee baseball or Giant football I have come to adopt Snake Tom's philosophy," You are what your record is" and the Giants were not a good FB team the last three years and their record proved that. As to the Giants it was an organization failure from top to bottom and only TC paid the price .

Couldn't agree more. No leadership this week. Trashing the group you choose to keep? Mindless.

To have 3 seasons of losing records is an organization failure, not just coaching. And after this week, I'm starting to see why.

In other news, one of their big salary cap issues and FA busts could be resolved soon.

 

[Piratz]

Gase to the Dolphins. So he's off the list.

Maybe you get some combo of Coughlin/McAdoo with Eagles with TC upstairs.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Gase to the Dolphins. So he's off the list.

Maybe you get some combo of Coughlin/McAdoo with Eagles with TC upstairs.

tc and ben are mutually not together for a fit, tc did not bring ben to nyg, the brass did

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Bills owner was just quoted about Rex Ryan and the GM. Make the playoffs next season or bust. Ryan has 4 years left on his contract. Mara has been blaming Coughlin in his subtle ways while just talking about the obvious holes in certain areas. He really hasn't given him much of an ultimatum like Rex got.

As I posted if the Giants draft 2 Pro Bowl type players like OBJ and Richburg and hit a home run with a 4th & 5th round pick next season does Mara think Reese turned it around like he said needs to be done at the press conference? Will Mara say OK now those are your core players or does he say Reese is Chip Kelly as a GM. I think Reese is being defensive because the facts to him are we had the lead with 75 seconds to go in 5 games, went toe to toe with 2 unbeaten teams and had a rash of injuries.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/06/rex-ryan-could-be-down-to-his-last-chance/

reese is a big advocate of "10 plays" can change a season's fortune

 

[Piratz]

tc and ben are mutually not together for a fit, tc did not bring ben to nyg, the brass did

I think that's been refuted enough by now, but who really knows for sure I guess. I like McAdoo (and Spags). I'm just not sure Ben is ready and have some questions about his coaching too. For instance, their offense was 29th in RZ efficiency. Huge when you lose 8 games by 26 points.

I am sure the competitive nature of Tom Coughlin is on fire with this insinuation that his age and game management held back the Giants from greater heights this year (or did his coaching make them competitive to begin with?) despite just about every personnel man - and the owner - acknowledging the bad players on defense in what was an historically bad unit. And that's what the Giants are telling you by keeping everything else in tact. Especially if they promote one of Tom's coordinators.

They need to find a coach and move on. If TC does coach the Eagles I have no doubt he'll turn them around.