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Pardons

People who feel the DOJ was weaponized only believe it because Trump said it. Nothing else. You and the people who believe this just parrot what Trump says. Nothing else.

Trump deserved his house being searched because he committed a crime despite given opportunities to turn over the documents.

Everyone can see for themselves that the Capitol was attacked and desecrated and police officers beaten, yet these thugs were pardoned. What kind of bizarro country have we become that is acceptable. Proud Boyz and other alt right groups have been given protection by this Pardon.
No it's because people have lost faith in the intuitions, the media, and everything else they should have faith in. People who hate Trump were against it.

The thugs shouldn't have been pardoned and the thugs in Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, etc should have been put in jail. For a guy who says didn't hear you complain about Menendez, you sure as hell didn't complain about those other cities getting attacked by thugs.
 
People who feel the DOJ was weaponized only believe it because Trump said it. Nothing else. You and the people who believe this just parrot what Trump says. Nothing else.

Trump deserved his house being searched because he committed a crime despite given opportunities to turn over the documents.

Everyone can see for themselves that the Capitol was attacked and desecrated and police officers beaten, yet these thugs were pardoned. What kind of bizarro country have we become that is acceptable. Proud Boyz and other alt right groups have been given protection by this Pardon.
Not only protection but the goodwill to act out again at trumps beck and call
 
No it's because people have lost faith in the intuitions, the media, and everything else they should have faith in. People who hate Trump were against it.

The thugs shouldn't have been pardoned and the thugs in Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, etc should have been put in jail. For a guy who says didn't hear you complain about Menendez, you sure as hell didn't complain about those other cities getting attacked by thugs.
Do you even acknowledge facts at all? Facts, many people were arrested and went to jail during the riots. And if you know anything g about me and I said it at the time, those that riot and do violence need to go to jail.

Again, you are not replacing institutions. You want incompetent people to lead it. Anyone who thinks Goetz, Hesgeth and Patel should be in those jobs are out of their mind. Or u want these people to tear down the institutions of the United States because that sound like anarchy.
 
Do you even acknowledge facts at all? Facts, many people were arrested and went to jail during the riots. And if you know anything g about me and I said it at the time, those that riot and do violence need to go to jail.

Again, you are not replacing institutions. You want incompetent people to lead it. Anyone who thinks Goetz, Hesgeth and Patel should be in those jobs are out of their mind. Or u want these people to tear down the institutions of the United States because that sound like anarchy.

Stop with the nonsense, those people weren't prosecuted like Jan 6 people and they did the same thing. You know that. DA's went soft on them because that's what they were told to do. 90%+ cases were dropped in just about every major city. DA's essentially pardoned those protestors.
 
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so hes pardoning some traitors?

don't wanna hear about biden. trump was going to use the pardon like this regardless of who went before him. has he gotten to the egg prices yet? that was day 1 agenda. oops guess there were some higher priorities.
 
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so hes pardoning some traitors?

don't wanna hear about biden. trump was going to use the pardon like this regardless of who went before him. has he gotten to the egg prices yet? that was day 1 agenda. oops guess there were some higher priorities.
You’re going to have a rough four years.
 
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Looks like Trump just pardoned all Jan 6 defendants. Didn’t take long for Trump to prove what a disgrace that he is the President. Hall85 u were up in arms about Biden pardoning people who committed no crime.

Trump starts off on day one proving he is not to be trusted with the reigns of power.
yea, I mean, these people destroyed public property, right? Sacred property some would argue. Even from a financial standpoint alone, it’s a crime. Why condone it for political reasons? Agree?
 
Both Biden and Trump pardons wrong you can agree degrees of wrong but can’t argue they were not both wrong.
And they have both set dangerous precedents. Egregious use of pardons which give future Presidents permission to use them without any repercussions.
 
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Yeah I don’t think you don’t know anything about law enforcement and what Wray’s abilities are. If you think Wray conducting a search warrant (raid) was wrong or illegal, it shows you know nothing about LE. Clearly Trump can do no wrong in your eyes. Qualified Trump appointees are bad appointments
I have far more experience and far more qualified than Cash Patel, and I do not consider myself qualified to be FBI Director

I guess Jerome Powell was a bad appointment as well since Powell since Trump wil replace him. The man has done an outstanding job at the Fed.
I don't think the raid on Mar-A-Lago was illegal but I think the manner in which it was carried out was excessive. And more to the point on Ray and I should have made this clear and didn't, where was the raid on Biden's home in Delaware Delaware?
 
I don't think the raid on Mar-A-Lago was illegal but I think the manner in which it was carried out was excessive. And more to the point on Ray and I should have made this clear and didn't, where was the raid on Biden's home in Delaware Delaware?

Trump was given well over a year to return the files. He refused and lied about having them. He was issued a subpoena to return the files, they certified the files were returned after a “diligent search” which was another lie… so he got raided.

Biden cooperated. Trump did not. That’s the difference.

Crazy how anyone could think Trump was treated unfairly there honestly.
 
Trump was given well over a year to return the files. He refused and lied about having them. He was issued a subpoena to return the files, they certified the files were returned after a “diligent search” which was another lie… so he got raided.

Biden cooperated. Trump did not. That’s the difference.

Crazy how anyone could think Trump was treated unfairly there honestly.
you've said this 100x . its pretty simple and objective. theres really no argument, yet...
 
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As a member of law enforcement t for 27 years who has personally prosecuted numerous murderers including a terrorist, I think I have some good feel for what it takes to Christopher Wray was a man of integrity who carried out the job of the Director well. Patel is a lightweight who is just a yes man for Trump. Please read Bill Barr’s accounting of Patel.
Yea ok-but you hate Trump. You disagree with everything he does. It’s in your posts. The lightweight and yes man stuff??? What were Biden’s people? Come on
Trump was given well over a year to return the files. He refused and lied about having them. He was issued a subpoena to return the files, they certified the files were returned after a “diligent search” which was another lie… so he got raided.

Biden cooperated. Trump did not. That’s the difference.

Crazy how anyone could think Trump was treated unfairly there honestly.
Trump’s lawyers might have gotten creative when responding to the subpoena? That never happens. I’m sure Biden just handed the keys.
Yawn
 
Trump’s lawyers might have gotten creative when responding to the subpoena? That never happens.

Revisit the timeline of what happened. It was a year and a half between the request for the documents and the raid.
Trump had a year and a half and lied about having anything the entire time. He had well over a year to comply with the law. In all seriousness, why don't you have an issue with that?

I’m sure Biden just handed the keys.

Indeed he did. Biden let them in to search. No warrant required when you do that. Trump could have done the same but for some reason you just don't care that he did not cooperate with a subpoena and was clearly breaking the law.
 
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Trump was given well over a year to return the files. He refused and lied about having them. He was issued a subpoena to return the files, they certified the files were returned after a “diligent search” which was another lie… so he got raided.

Biden cooperated. Trump did not. That’s the difference.

Crazy how anyone could think Trump was treated unfairly there honestly.
Did Biden really cooperate? His lawyers kept on finding classified documents in various locations and then reporting it to the authorities. Who knows what they found that wasn't reported but in any case law enforcement wasn't the one doing the searching, apparently. Biden's lawyers were investigating their boss it seems.
 
id Biden really cooperate? His lawyers kept on finding classified documents in various locations and then reporting it to the authorities. Who knows what they found that wasn't reported but in any case law enforcement wasn't the one doing the searching, apparently. Biden's lawyers were investigating their boss it seems.

That is incorrect. The FBi searched Biden’s home. Biden cooperated, Trump did not.
 
FBI went to both homes, biden cooperated and trump did not. WTF dont you understand.
The point was that nobody has gone after presidents for this stuff before. It was unfair. “Going after” Biden was a coordinated attack on Biden. They only went after trump to show everyone that the law applies equally. Even though we all know the DOJ was anti Biden
 
FBI went to both homes, biden cooperated and trump did not. WTF dont you understand.
Did you read the PBS timeline? It lays it out quite clearly. Biden's lawyers went in first and then calledl the authorities. It should have been the reverse. The FBI should have been first on the scene before any evidence could be tampered with, but this was another instance of Wray's incompetence And that is what started this whole conversation. Wray and Milley. Trump’s biggest mistakes
 
Did you read the PBS timeline? It lays it out quite clearly. Biden's lawyers went in first and then calledl the authorities. It should have been the reverse. The FBI should have been first on the scene before any evidence could be tampered with, but this was another instance of Wray's incompetence And that is what started this whole conversation. Wray and Milley. Trump’s biggest mistakes

You realize they didn't have to call anyone in, correct?

Lets change the analogy here.

Person 1 - "Hi FBI, I found drugs in my home can you search my home?"

Person 2 - "Hi FBI, You know I have drugs? No I don't.
Months later
"Oh, You know I have drugs and you got a subpoena? ok, we certify that here are all the drugs"
Months later
"Oh, You got a warrant because you know we are still lying?"

Which one there is worse?
 
You realize they didn't have to call anyone in, correct?

Lets change the analogy here.
When Trump was rated in August of 2022, Joe realized that there was an outside chance that Ray might actually do his job that that
Person 1 - "Hi FBI, I found drugs in my home can you search my home?"

Person 2 - "Hi FBI, You know I have drugs? No I don't.
Months later
"Oh, You know I have drugs and you got a subpoena? ok, we certify that here are all the drugs"
Months later
"Oh, You got a warrant because you know we are still lying?".

Which one there is wors3e?
You can conjure up all the scenarios you want, but I think the most reasonable explanation is that when Trump was raided in August of 2022, Biden came to his senses and realized if Ray did his job, Biden's properties might be next on the FBI's list. So he told his minions to go in and check these locations and confess that I had been walking off with highly classified documents since I was a senator. Then tell the gullible public that I'm cooperating with the FBI. Who knows what documents were found compared to how many were owned up to? If you consider this cooperating with the fbi, I think you are redefining that term. Biden was covering his ass , pure and simple. This was all part of the grand plan to hang Trump and cover for Biden
 
You can conjure up all the scenarios you want, but I think the most reasonable explanation is that when Trump was raided in August of 2022, Biden came to his senses and realized if Ray did his job, Biden's properties might be next on the FBI's list. So he told his minions to go in and check these locations and confess that I had been walking off with highly classified documents since I was a senator. Then tell the gullible public that I'm cooperating with the FBI. Who knows what documents were found compared to how many were owned up to? If you consider this cooperating with the fbi, I think you are redefining that term. Biden was covering his ass , pure and simple. This was all part of the grand plan to hang Trump and cover for Biden

Again, the difference here is that the national archives knew of documents Trump took and kept.
They requested them back and Trump refused. They contacted the DOJ because Trump was refusing to return the documents. The DOJ requested them back and obtained a subpoena. Trump still did not comply with the request which is why they were forced to get a warrant.

And of course, revisiting history a bit...

delete thousands of emails, some highly classified, from a private server, lose billing records, and perhaps most amazingly, convince reasonably intelligent people she was qualified to be President. And this is just a partial list. How she walks the streets a free woman is one of the world's greatest unsolved mysteries

You thought Hillary should have been in jail for how she handled her e-mail. I was also very critical of how she handled her e-mail, yet Trump who was far more brazen in his disregard for classified markings gets a pass by you. You're VERY forgiving of what Trump did here.
 
no. 100% of illegal immigrates are criminals. That’s why they are ILLEGAL immigrants.

Wrong. The term “criminal” is for criminal statutes. Being here undocumented is under a civil statute.

And surely, if we’re discussing the threat they pose to society, we can distinguish the criminal illegal immigrants and those who are here illegally, but do not commit crimes, right?
 
Wrong. The term “criminal” is for criminal statutes. Being here undocumented is under a civil statute.

And surely, if we’re discussing the threat they pose to society, we can distinguish the criminal illegal immigrants and those who are here illegally, but do not commit crimes, right?
Violating federal laws is a crime.

Every illegal can be a good person. I don't think that's even a question. They're all not, but they could be. But they still broke the law the way they came in. If I decide to move to Italy tomorrow permanently, I'm not going to break their laws to do it.
 
Violating federal laws is a crime.

Every illegal can be a good person. I don't think that's even a question. They're all not, but they could be. But they still broke the law the way they came in.

Correct, which the court has ruled not a criminal offense, but a civil one. Kind of like like jay walking in NJ. You're trying to make it worse than it actually is to downplay actual criminal activity by Americans.
Again, we should be able to distinguish good and bad behavior.

If I decide to move to Italy tomorrow permanently, I'm not going to break their laws to do it.

That's VERY easy to say when you live in America.
If you were living in extreme poverty or your family was in danger, maybe you would feel differently about your willingness to break a law to live elsewhere.
 
That's VERY easy to say when you live in America.
If you were living in extreme poverty or your family was in danger, maybe you would feel differently about your willingness to break a law to live elsewhere.
The reality is that the vast majority of immigrants that ha e come here over the years, came because they lived in poverty or subjected to issues like famine. But they came through LEGALLY because that is the law of the land. We have seen that asylum requests that have not come close to the definition.

We need to have immigration laws and abide by-enforce them. Don’t see why we can’t develop quotas like we used to have as we need a flow of immigrants but we need to monitor for our own security and overburdening our systems.
 
That's VERY easy to say when you live in America.
If you were living in extreme poverty or your family was in danger, maybe you would feel differently about your willingness to break a law to live elsewhere.
Things are very easy to see when you put yourself in anyone's shoes. Put yourself in the shoes of those in poverty in another country and you can see their side. Put yourself in the shoes of the person struggling to find an honest days pay because illegals are taking the job for less. Put yourself in the shoes of Laken Riley's family and you'll see it differently. Thankfully we're not in that situation, but there's multiple sides to view it from.
 
Things are very easy to see when you put yourself in anyone's shoes. Put yourself in the shoes of those in poverty in another country and you can see their side. Put yourself in the shoes of the person struggling to find an honest days pay because illegals are taking the job for less. Put yourself in the shoes of Laken Riley's family and you'll see it differently. Thankfully we're not in that situation, but there's multiple sides to view it from.

That's the point. Consider all of that when discussing the issue.

Calling them all criminals, when they are not, in an effort to downplay actual criminal activity doesn't really do that though.
 
wow, much higher % if criminals in Jan 6ers than illegal immigrants. who would have ever thought?

these people are scum and the people that are fine with it happening are scum. heck you might even find a few those on this board. or even president of the US!
Scum. Good work.
 
Wrong. The term “criminal” is for criminal statutes. Being here undocumented is under a civil statute.

And surely, if we’re discussing the threat they pose to society, we can distinguish the criminal illegal immigrants and those who are here illegally, but do not commit crimes, right?
Entering the country illegally is a crime. Staying even if entering legally can be a crime. Are you trying to distinguish?
 
Entering the country illegally is a crime. Staying even if entering legally can be a crime. Are you trying to distinguish?

Yes. It is a civil offense to be here illegally, not a criminal offense.

I wouldn't compare existing in the US illegally to, say, assault or being a child predator as the examples noted above...
Those are actual criminals whereas an illegal immigrant just living here is not.
 
Yes. It is a civil offense to be here illegally, not a criminal offense.

I wouldn't compare existing in the US illegally to, say, assault or being a child predator as the examples noted above...
Those are actual criminals whereas an illegal immigrant just living here is not.
You are not being accurate. You’re also acting like they all entered legally; they all didnt so those people can be prosecuted for that crime. in some instances people enter legally (great), but, by not leaving, some (not all) can be prosecuted for a crime and in other cases it is a civil issue.

Put aside that many don’t pay taxes. Put aside that employers take advantage of this (not fair for several reasons).

Trump is doing what he said he’d do. Like it or hate it. My personal opinion is not being shared because I don’t think it matters. I feel for all sides that are negatively impacted by the issues.

I go back to my point: open borders but do it the right way and let’s make it easier for people to do it the right way by having more courts, a quicker application process and more resources to review the applicants
 
You are not being accurate. You’re also acting like they all entered legally; they all didnt so those people can be prosecuted for that crime. in some instances people enter legally (great), but, by not leaving, some (not all) can be prosecuted for a crime and in other cases it is a civil issue.

About half entered legally and overstayed, and there is also a statute of limitations for illegal entry where if you have been here for more than 5 years - so more than half don't even apply to what you're referring to. Congress also tried to pass a bill years ago which would have made any undocumented person a criminal, but it failed.

What I objected to here was calling ALL illegal immigrants criminals, because by definition, they are not.

Put aside that many don’t pay taxes.

Of course they do. Billions in social security they will never collect as well as sales taxes etc.
Economically, we're far better off with them than without them - but we do exploit them for their cheap labor and "enjoy" the low cost goods and services that creates.

I go back to my point: open borders but do it the right way and let’s make it easier for people to do it the right way by having more courts, a quicker application process and more resources to review the applicants

In agreement with that and it's unfortunate Trump blocked congress from doing that a year ago.
I think fixing what we do with the people trying to get in is far easier than what we should do with the millions here.
I still hope for comprehensive immigration reform where the people who have been here for years can stay, and we get them on the books and stop exploiting them.
 
About half entered legally and overstayed, and there is also a statute of limitations for illegal entry where if you have been here for more than 5 years - so more than half don't even apply to what you're referring to. Congress also tried to pass a bill years ago which would have made any undocumented person a criminal, but it failed.

What I objected to here was calling ALL illegal immigrants criminals, because by definition, they are not.



Of course they do. Billions in social security they will never collect as well as sales taxes etc.
Economically, we're far better off with them than without them - but we do exploit them for their cheap labor and "enjoy" the low cost goods and services that creates.



In agreement with that and it's unfortunate Trump blocked congress from doing that a year ago.
I think fixing what we do with the people trying to get in is far easier than what we should do with the millions here.
I still hope for comprehensive immigration reform where the people who have been here for years can stay, and we get them on the books and stop exploiting them.
Both parties have failed miserably on this issue for various reasons.

Whether we like Trump or not, if he can get meaningful legislation through this year that addresses securing the borders, deporting criminals, developing a pathway to citizenship, establishing annual immigration quotas and destroying the cartels, we should all celebrate.

Beyond getting it passed, implementation will be tricky and ongoing and I hope future administrations stay the course.
 
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