Perfect Storm

[HALL85]

First of all, what happened to George Floyd is reprehensible and disgusting. No excuse and I don't know what is holding up the charging of the other three officers.

Taking a step back, there seems to be a perfect storm of events that have led to what we are witnessing:
* A horrific murder by LEO caught on video from multiple angles with three other officers doing nothing. If it doesn't disturb you, you're not human.
* While the immediate firing of the four officers was the right thing to do, the delays in charging and the appearance of lack of leadership has been awful.
* Populations of people have been pent up with sheltering orders, government over reach, that may have included loss of jobs and also inability to do those social or important things that define them outside of work. You don't radically change someone's routine without consequences.
* The thought of a lost summer as the weather has gotten warmer has compounded the anger/frustration.
* Outside influences that more information emerging (see NYC) that are using this event to incite anarchy. How do police neutralize radical rioters while giving protesters space.
* The frustration and anger of the impending Presidential election cycle. One protester was holding a sign that said "Nobody for President".

 

[jcalz88]

Real shit show we have going on right now.

 

[batts]

Also, the lower income blacks and other minorities were hit hard financially by the pandemic shutdowns. I'm sure that they believe that the system does not work for them and are frustrated by that. They want change.

 

[SHUSA]

wait until the stimulus checks run out

 

[HallBall02]

Pandemic hasn’t ended either. Layoffs haven’t ended yet.

There will probably be more unintended loss of life with the protesters, rioters, national guard, police officers and their families from mobilizing in such large groups with coved-19 still circulating.

Poor leadership is all around.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

 

[shu09]

Pandemic hasn’t ended either. Layoffs haven’t ended yet.

There will probably be more unintended loss of life with the protesters, rioters, national guard, police officers and their families from mobilizing in such large groups with coved-19 still circulating.

Poor leadership is all around.

Virus is pretty much snuffed out, especially in our area. Some hot spots in certain areas of the country, but it's largely well past its peak. We're closer to the end than the beginning.

 

[HallBall02]

Virus is pretty much snuffed out, especially in our area. Some hot spots in certain areas of the country, but it's largely well past its peak. We're closer to the end than the beginning.

Wish you were right but I disagree with this viewpoint.

There is no vaccine available, nothing has changed. You don’t close down the economy for a few months for nothing right? How in the world do you know there won’t be a resurgence?
Any facts to support that it’s has been snuffed out or that it’s closer to the end then beginning?

Unfortunately I believe that there will be more the an additional 500 ppl killed by covid19 linked to spread from rioting/protests. I used 500 bc that’s approximately how many people are killed per year from police officers.

 

[shu09]

Wish you were right but I disagree with this viewpoint.

There is no vaccine available, nothing has changed. You don’t close down the economy for a few months for nothing right? How in the world do you know there won’t be a resurgence?
Any facts to support that it’s has been snuffed out or that it’s closer to the end then beginning?

Unfortunately I believe that there will be more the an additional 500 ppl killed by covid19 linked to spread from rioting/protests. I used 500 bc that’s approximately how many people are killed per year from police officers.

It hasn't been able to spread for nearly 3 months in this country. Where is it going to go? It doesn't just sit there waiting to attack. It has run its course.

 

[HallBall02]

It hasn't been able to spread for nearly 3 months in this country. Where is it going to go? It doesn't just sit there waiting to attack. It has run its course.

It is still spreading. It is still here. It has not run its course and not going to disappear without a trace. I wish you were right though.

Yes I agree it is isn't waiting to attack is already attacking someone that you can come in contact with.

don’t take my word for it. Research almost any of the experts in infectious diseases. Stay safe out there!

 

[HALL85]

The videos emerging of the rioters looting and beating people up gang style are horrific. How can a mayor and police chief let this happen?

 

[Merge]

It hasn't been able to spread for nearly 3 months in this country. Where is it going to go? It doesn't just sit there waiting to attack. It has run its course.

By modeling estimates from that site you posted a while back says we had about 100k infected 3 months ago and are now at 13.5 million. It hasn’t been able to spread? What?

To say it has run its course means the spread would not continue in a significant way because of herd immunity without any other measures to control it.

We are not there. We can get there if we all take it seriously enough as we reopen, but I’m not that optimistic especially looking at these protests / riots.

 

[shu09]

By modeling estimates from that site you posted a while back says we had about 100k infected 3 months ago and are now at 13.5 million. It hasn’t been able to spread? What?

To say it has run its course means the spread would not continue in a significant way because of herd immunity without any other measures to control it.

We are not there. We can get there if we all take it seriously enough as we reopen, but I’m not that optimistic especially looking at these protests / riots.

Yes, it spread over those 3 months. The spread has stopped for the most part as we sit here on June 1.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

The videos emerging of the rioters looting and beating people up gang style are horrific. How can a mayor and police chief let this happen?

Haha they allow it to happen but had draconian lockdown for the virus. Liberalism is a disease that is eating this country from the inside out.

 

[Merge]

Yes, it spread over those 3 months. The spread has stopped for the most part as we sit here on June 1.

Ok, sounded like you were saying something different when you said it hasn't been able to spread for 3 months.

I'd agree the actions we took slowed the spread to a more manageable number, just want to make sure we're not treating it like it's over.

 

[Merge]

Haha they allow it to happen but had draconian lockdown for the virus. Liberalism is a disease that is eating this country from the inside out.

The riots have nothing to do with liberalism.

Blaming liberalism is just as stupid as someone blaming every cop in America because some cops are bad.

 

[shu09]

The riots have nothing to do with liberalism.

Yes, they do. Extreme liberalism like that spouted by a certain person on this board. That type of thinking where if you don't agree with them, you're a racist, a bigot, basically any name in the book and they have to stand up to you and shout you down because you don't conform to their thinking, even if it means violence.

Liberal policies have led to the situation we see today. Instead of rallying America around each other, the Democratic party has splintered the country into various factions. The essence of divide and conquer. Instead of one American family, we have all of these groups with their own agendas. "Black lives matter." Are you kidding? ALL lives matter, whether you're black, white, brown, etc.

The Democratic party used to be respectable. The party of FDR, JFK, Jimmy Carter, Tip O'Neill, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, etc. is long gone. In the last 15-20 years it has moved extremely far to the left in a quest to pander and gain votes from every minority group. It has divided people using identity politics along racial, economic, class and religious lines. It says that if you don't get your way, you must be oppressed and the system is rigged against you. It invents issues such as voter suppression, systemic racism, income inequality and economic "fairness" in order to make people angry, instead of encouraging those people to get an education and work on themselves in order to improve their situations. It's a party that preaches "tolerance," but only if you agree with their platform. There is no room for differing voices in today's Democratic party.

 

[shu09]

And FWIW, the Republican party isn't much better. But at least they don't incite violence when someone disagrees with them.

Congressional term limits, the end of all lobbying, the end of all political donations. That's what needs to happen to regain control of our political system. I believe most Americans when it comes down to it are moderate. We need more of them to speak up against the political system.

 

[Merge]

Yes, they do. Extreme liberalism like that spouted by a certain person on this board. That type of thinking where if you don't agree with them, you're a racist, a bigot, basically any name in the book and they have to stand up to you and shout you down because you don't conform to their thinking, even if it means violence.

Liberal policies have led to the situation we see today. Instead of rallying America around each other, the Democratic party has splintered the country into various factions. The essence of divide and conquer. Instead of one American family, we have all of these groups with their own agendas. "Black lives matter." Are you kidding? ALL lives matter, whether you're black, white, brown, etc.

The Democratic party used to be respectable. The party of FDR, JFK, Jimmy Carter, Tip O'Neill, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, etc. is long gone. In the last 15-20 years it has moved extremely far to the left in a quest to pander and gain votes from every minority group. It has divided people using identity politics along racial, economic, class and religious lines. It says that if you don't get your way, you must be oppressed and the system is rigged against you. It invents issues such as voter suppression, systemic racism, income inequality and economic "fairness" in order to make people angry, instead of encouraging those people to get an education and work on themselves in order to improve their situations. It's a party that preaches "tolerance," but only if you agree with their platform. There is no room for differing voices in today's Democratic party.

Extreme anything is bad, but nothing you posted is unique to liberalism.
Both sides do everything you are saying.

Both sides make people angry to get votes. Both sides convince people their problems are because of someone else.

I'd bet the people participating in the riots are much less likely to have voted than those who are participating in the protests.

I am a liberal. My desire for everyone to have access to healthcare and that we take care of the environment did not create the problems that we are seeing today.

And yes, voter suppression is real. Why else not allow convicted felons who have served their time the right to vote?

 

[shu09]

Extreme anything is bad, but nothing you posted is unique to liberalism.
Both sides do everything you are saying.

Both sides make people angry to get votes. Both sides convince people their problems are because of someone else.

I'd bet the people participating in the riots are much less likely to have voted than those who are participating in the protests.

I am a liberal. My desire for everyone to have access to healthcare and that we take care of the environment did not create the problems that we are seeing today.

And yes, voter suppression is real. Why else not allow convicted felons who have served their time the right to vote?

Because they're a convicted felon? That's exactly the reason why.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Extreme anything is bad, but nothing you posted is unique to liberalism.
Both sides do everything you are saying.

Both sides make people angry to get votes. Both sides convince people their problems are because of someone else.

I'd bet the people participating in the riots are much less likely to have voted than those who are participating in the protests.

I am a liberal. My desire for everyone to have access to healthcare and that we take care of the environment did not create the problems that we are seeing today.

And yes, voter suppression is real. Why else not allow convicted felons who have served their time the right to vote?

I live in a Republican part of NJ, we don't riot, crime is low, and income levels lower for the NJ average.

 

[Merge]

Because they're a convicted felon? That's exactly the reason why.

Who have served their time...

Why else would Florida try to add a stipulation where they weren't allowed to vote if they owed money?
Did they do the same for homeowners who were delinquent on their taxes? Of course they didn't because they were only focused on a select group that they didn't want voting.

One side wants everyone to have access to vote, the other does not... We should not have any areas on this country where voting takes hours. General election days should also be a national holiday to encourage participation.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Who have served their time...

Why else would Florida try to add a stipulation where they weren't allowed to vote if they owed money?
Did they do the same for homeowners who were delinquent on their taxes? Of course they didn't because they were only focused on a select group that they didn't want voting.

One side wants everyone to have access to vote, the other does not... We should not have any areas on this country where voting takes hours. General election days should also be a national holiday to encourage participation.

Everyone including illegal immigrants who should not have any say in our country.

 

[Merge]

I live in a Republican part of NJ, we don't riot, crime is low, and income levels lower for the NJ average.

Good for you? What are you getting at?

 

[Merge]

Everyone including illegal immigrants who should not have any say in our country.

No they don't, but thanks for proving my point about people pointing fingers about who to blame being from both sides.

 

[shu09]

Who have served their time...

Why else would Florida try to add a stipulation where they weren't allowed to vote if they owed money?
Did they do the same for homeowners who were delinquent on their taxes? Of course they didn't because they were only focused on a select group that they didn't want voting.

One side wants everyone to have access to vote, the other does not... We should not have any areas on this country where voting takes hours. General election days should also be a national holiday to encourage participation.

No, not everyone should vote. There is a reason we don't allow children to vote. There is a reason we don't allow illegal aliens to vote. There is a reason we don't allow convicted felons to vote.

A national holiday for election day? Stop. It is easy to vote. The polls are open from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM. If you can't find time to vote during that massive stretch of the day, then vote absentee.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

No they don't, but thanks for proving my point about people pointing fingers about who to blame being from both sides.

Really? Is San Francisco not in California?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.la...ion-immigration-20181026-story.html?_amp=true

 

[Pirata]

everyone to have access to healthcare

They currently do.

 

[Merge]

No, not everyone should vote. There is a reason we don't allow children to vote. There is a reason we don't allow illegal aliens to vote. There is a reason we don't allow convicted felons to vote.

Children sure? (though I'd argue a lot of 17 year olds are more intelligent than many voters)
Illegal aliens? Agree. They should not have the right to vote.
Convicted felons who have served their time? Absolutely disagree. Don't see the logic there at all.

But don't skip over Florida trying to block them based on money owed. The state of Florida decided to allow them the right to vote, then the governor tried to block them if they owed money. Why?
Does it have anything to do with anything other than trying to prevent someone from voting?
Why not apply that rule to people who owe money for parking tickets as well?

A national holiday for election day? Stop. It is easy to vote.

It's easy for you. Great. It should be just as easy for everyone else. It's not.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Children sure? (though I'd argue a lot of 17 year olds are more intelligent than many voters)
Illegal aliens? Agree. They should not have the right to vote.
Convicted felons who have served their time? Absolutely disagree. Don't see the logic there at all.

But don't skip over Florida trying to block them based on money owed. The state of Florida decided to allow them the right to vote, then the governor tried to block them if they owed money. Why?
Does it have anything to do with anything other than trying to prevent someone from voting?
Why not apply that rule to people who owe money for parking tickets as well?



It's easy for you. Great. It should be just as easy for everyone else. It's not.

Had this debate back in HS with a now deceased history teacher who was a goat, why is the age of 18 depicted as the time you are certified to be able to vote....shu09 every state has different poll opening and closing times, if anything came out of the 2000 election I wish there would have been a federal mandate that every voting machine at every precinct was the same technology

 

[Merge]

Had this debate back in HS with a now deceased history teacher who was a goat, why is the age of 18 depicted as the time you are certified to be able to vote....shu09 every state has different poll opening and closing times, if anything came out of the 2000 election I wish there would have been a federal mandate that every voting machine at every precinct was the same technology

At least the same across a state.

That said, I have been voting for over 20 years now and the longest it has ever taken me was about 10 minutes. Happened to be the year my daughter was born so my wife and I holding a 3 month old as we waited made those 10 minutes feel significantly longer than it really was. It's unthinkable to me that there are parts of this country which can't manage to have voting take less than an hour let along several hours like in parts of Florida or Georgia.. but like I said, a certain party wants it to be a chore to try and dissuade people from voting.

 

[shu09]

Children sure? (though I'd argue a lot of 17 year olds are more intelligent than many voters)
Illegal aliens? Agree. They should not have the right to vote.
Convicted felons who have served their time? Absolutely disagree. Don't see the logic there at all.

But don't skip over Florida trying to block them based on money owed. The state of Florida decided to allow them the right to vote, then the governor tried to block them if they owed money. Why?
Does it have anything to do with anything other than trying to prevent someone from voting?
Why not apply that rule to people who owe money for parking tickets as well?



It's easy for you. Great. It should be just as easy for everyone else. It's not.

That's part of the deal when you commit a crime. Time served is one thing, but you commit a crime, you forfeit your right to vote. It's that simple.

Why isn't it easy to vote? You register in advance and you go to the polling station (often only a mile or two from your residence) any time during the day. It's not difficult.

 

[shu09]

Had this debate back in HS with a now deceased history teacher who was a goat, why is the age of 18 depicted as the time you are certified to be able to vote....shu09 every state has different poll opening and closing times, if anything came out of the 2000 election I wish there would have been a federal mandate that every voting machine at every precinct was the same technology

New Jersey's hours are 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM.

The voting age is 18 because that is when you are considered an adult by the law. It often coincides with high school graduation. If you have an issue with that, take it up with those who decide when you're an adult and when you're not.

When I was in high school, I was disappointed that I couldn't vote as a 17 year old in 2004. I wanted to vote for Kerry / against Bush very badly. But I accepted that I couldn't. Ironically knowing what we know about Kerry now, probably a good reason why those under 18 shouldn't vote. LOL

Agree that every machine should use the same technology.

 

[Merge]

That's part of the deal when you commit a crime. Time served is one thing, but you commit a crime, you forfeit your right to vote. It's that simple.

Commit a crime?

Hmm.. Willing to bet most if not everyone on this board should not be allowed to vote then?

Losing the right to vote because of something you did previously is just a really dumb idea. Why would you expect people who have served time to become productive members of society if you tell them they don't get a say in anything?

Why isn't it easy to vote? You register in advance and you go to the polling station (often only a mile or two from your residence) any time during the day. It's not difficult.

I'm glad it has been easy for you. Not sure why you think your experience is a shared experience nationally though.

 

[HALL85]

Maybe we should fine districts that can't process voters within 10 minutes. Maybe if we had a national voter registration card, the process might go a little quicker?

 

[shu09]

Commit a crime?

Hmm.. Willing to bet most if not everyone on this board should not be allowed to vote then?

Losing the right to vote because of something you did previously is just a really dumb idea. Why would you expect people who have served time to become productive members of society if you tell them they don't get a say in anything?



I'm glad it has been easy for you. Not sure why you think your experience is a shared experience nationally though.

I doubt most people on this board are felons. Would be a shame if they were and yes, they should lose their right to vote if that's the case.

 

[HALL85]

Commit a crime?

Losing the right to vote because of something you did previously is just a really dumb idea. Why would you expect people who have served time to become productive members of society if you tell them they don't get a say in anything?

Actions have consequences. You can have the opportunity to be a productive member of society if you're a felon that has served time. Losing the right to vote should come with the territory. Just like being a convicted pedophile, you can be productive but your residence will be forever available to the public.

 

[Merge]

Actions have consequences. You can have the opportunity to be a productive member of society if you're a felon that has served time. Losing the right to vote should come with the territory. Just like being a convicted pedophile, you can be productive but your residence will be forever available to the public.

Equating the risk from a predator to a child compared to the risk of an ex felon voting? Really?

They should not be allowed the right to vote while serving their penalty. Beyond that doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Merge]

Maybe we should fine districts that can't process voters within 10 minutes. Maybe if we had a national voter registration card, the process might go a little quicker?

Fine the poor areas. Good idea.

How about we fund it properly in the first place?

I'm not against voter ID as long as we ensure everyone who wants one can get one without a problem.
Step 1 - Get everyone a voter ID card.
Step 2 - When step 1 is complete, use that for voting.

Don't put step 2 ahead of step 1.

 

[HallBall02]

In my neck of the woods, I’m considered more of a moderate conservative, on this board I’m a a flaming liberal.

I feel many viewpoints here are closer to an extreme conservative view point. And what most believe, following extreme viewpoints are not good for our society.

The problem is the extremes do not know they are extremes. They think they are the norm and right. Sad on both ends. The primary system amplifies these extremes.