Ironically, the confirmation of Willard's 2012 extension makes me glad we gave it to him, because anyone who could finegale an extension (and presumably a raise?) with that track record must be some kind of mad genius you should do anything to keep happy.
So there was a secret extension
- Thread starter chickenbox
- Start date
A
anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Either this thread needs to be locked or the other one should be reopened. This is the same story under a new title.
Dan, with all due respect, the posts on these threads are generally civil and if anything, inquisitive. I can understand locking a thread where there are personal attacks, but just because it's an uncomfortable topic to discuss doesn't pass the smell test for me to lock. You're the admin and it's your board to run, but that strikes me as censorship when you disagree with an opinion.
I ask this is in the most civil manner possible: how did Seton Hall, in the span of 6 years, go from firing a coach who had just made his second NCAA tournament in 3 years to extending a coach who never made it and whose prospects for the following season were absolutely dire? It doesn't add up. It doesn't make any sense.
What was the rush to lock up a coach who had yet to have any success? Where was he going? Kansas and Kentucky were not beating down Willard's door in the summer of 2012. And as we found out with Amaker if a coach wants to leave he's going to anyway, contract be damned. I don't get it.
Somebody should be fired. Multiple somebodies probably.
What was the rush to lock up a coach who had yet to have any success? Where was he going? Kansas and Kentucky were not beating down Willard's door in the summer of 2012. And as we found out with Amaker if a coach wants to leave he's going to anyway, contract be damned. I don't get it.
Somebody should be fired. Multiple somebodies probably.
Exactly BD- where is the accountability?
A) Either Lyons didn't operate in the best interests of the school
B) He genuinely did have the best interests of the school in mind- but made an inept error
C) Lyons had very little input into the terms of the extension/contract and was over ruled by Hobbs/BR
Each scenario is bad and doesn't give much to be optimistic about.
A) Either Lyons didn't operate in the best interests of the school
B) He genuinely did have the best interests of the school in mind- but made an inept error
C) Lyons had very little input into the terms of the extension/contract and was over ruled by Hobbs/BR
Each scenario is bad and doesn't give much to be optimistic about.
This is the most civil we've been. Everyone's on the same page. I hope and pray we are allowed to beat this horse to the point where it comes back to life...so we can beat it to death again. Cant dump enough salt on these wounds. This is the bed we made, time to sleep in it. All the insiders and buddy buddies gotta face the fact their smoke up ass golden boy didnt pan out (who woulda thought??) and the fans necks were slit in their sleep. Cant just bypass this rude awakening.
We have been told consistently, repeatedly, and for months - SOMETIMES EVEN WHILE BEING SHOUTED DOWN IN ALL CAPS - that there never was and never has been an extension so just give it up already. Today, downthread and meekly in a since locked discussion, we're told that all along there actually was an extension which was granted in 2012. With apologies to Dan's adminning frustrations, that revelation is quite newsworthy and discussion worthy, in my opinion at least.
I completely understand the fascination with the extension but I am not nearly as upset about it as everyone else seems to be.
Look at it from the perspective of 2012. In two seasons we had recovered from national disgrace to the cusp of the NCAA tournament. We fell short because of locker room issues that at the time were deemed not to be Willard's fault. We did not know then what we know now; Willard's fatal flaw is his inability to manage a locker room. It has little to do with his clapping, post game incoherence, lack of inbounds plays or anything else. All fun stuff to be sure and worthy to be discussed but at the risk of repetition - "inability to manage the locker room "is Willard's problem.
Based on the theory that the buyout this year is big but next year is manageable, the clear implication is the extension was for one additional year - from Year 5 to Year 6. As is stands today, the buyout merely guaranteed Willard gets two years to coach his core group. It is bad luck for fans that want him fired, bad for Willard's reputation and bad for the administration which is going to take an economic and credibility hit. But I think this concept of willful negligence (Fiduciary for Willard in SPK terms) is way overstated unless someone comes forward with actual evidence.
At the moment, we have every coaching outcome in the last 30 years in play.
PJ - Willard turns it around and starting next season we are nationally relevant
Blaney - We have another lackluster season and Willard is fired
Amaker - Willard leaves for another job
Orr - Willard makes the NCAA tournament but has no recruits for 2017 and is fired
Gonzo - We almost make the NCAA tournament but something happens that causes more national embarrassment and Willard is fired
The future is still to be written.
This post was edited on 3/9 4:32 PM by knowknow456
Look at it from the perspective of 2012. In two seasons we had recovered from national disgrace to the cusp of the NCAA tournament. We fell short because of locker room issues that at the time were deemed not to be Willard's fault. We did not know then what we know now; Willard's fatal flaw is his inability to manage a locker room. It has little to do with his clapping, post game incoherence, lack of inbounds plays or anything else. All fun stuff to be sure and worthy to be discussed but at the risk of repetition - "inability to manage the locker room "is Willard's problem.
Based on the theory that the buyout this year is big but next year is manageable, the clear implication is the extension was for one additional year - from Year 5 to Year 6. As is stands today, the buyout merely guaranteed Willard gets two years to coach his core group. It is bad luck for fans that want him fired, bad for Willard's reputation and bad for the administration which is going to take an economic and credibility hit. But I think this concept of willful negligence (Fiduciary for Willard in SPK terms) is way overstated unless someone comes forward with actual evidence.
At the moment, we have every coaching outcome in the last 30 years in play.
PJ - Willard turns it around and starting next season we are nationally relevant
Blaney - We have another lackluster season and Willard is fired
Amaker - Willard leaves for another job
Orr - Willard makes the NCAA tournament but has no recruits for 2017 and is fired
Gonzo - We almost make the NCAA tournament but something happens that causes more national embarrassment and Willard is fired
The future is still to be written.
This post was edited on 3/9 4:32 PM by knowknow456
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
What's done is done. No measure of emails to Lyons, posts on this board or witholding of donations is going to change anything right now At this point I'm hoping for some success in the BET and NIT if we make it, finish the season on a reasonably positive note, avoid any transfers, land a serviceable big for next year and hope for the best next season. I don't think Willard is a terrible Xs and Os coach, but I'm not a coach so what do I know. I think he has to step it up as a communicator and motivator and keep his locker room in order.
Willard's inability to succeed as a head basketball coach is fully documented. Even most of the pollyannas and blind loyalists are convinced of that now. To expect that suddenly in year six he will transform from failure to success is to expect a miracle. And South Orange is not Lourdes.
Athlete, I think you're right.
The dawning day has come. We are all seeing stuff more clearly.
On the other hand, just as I felt a strong emotion (while hope remained) to keep pressing forward, I think the evidence is clear that we are insignificant. Nothing we say counts. It remains to be seen whether what we say and think will matter in the LONG TERM. It may matter in a "see I told you that you were killing the body" kind of way.
At this point, I have embraced my irrelevance. The contract is done. The deal is done. There is nothing left for the hardy fan to yell about. We are on the little inner tube floating down a class five rapids and all there is left is seeing if we make it at the end.
So - for me - I've checked out. I know what I know. It took a long time to gain this knowledge. I will not relinquish my knowledge and my judgment. But there is nothing left to say.
I hope to meet you in person - certainly to thank you for being such an ardent supporter. There are many on this board I hope I may have the honor of meeting. You have my respect.
Now, I'm going to enjoy March Madness, and watch the Seton Hall MBB Clown Car drive off into the 2014-2015 sunset.
It is ok. I do not expect miracles nor am I asking anyone to expect miracles. People are on a witch hunt now for the scapegoat who was the "Fiduciary for Willard" (in SPK terms). I can't reach that level of willful negligence without real evidence. For now maybe it is enough the administration is on notice as well as the coach.
In the short term, I am hoping if not for a Lourdesean miracle, at least for lightening to strike twice and we somehow win against Marquette and then Nova.
I respect what you're saying and I am not into beating dead horses..but it doesn't even matter...there is very very little chance next year will be much better...we just dont have enough...teams in our league have been recruiting like our 2014 class for years...you saw it this year we were less talented then most teams we played...we have marginal recruits coming in...it will be impossible for the returning team to magically become that much better collectively without help
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I'm as beaten down as everyone else but what am I going to do? Stop being a fan? I've been beaten down for basically every year since becoming a student in '95. I don't like the way the administration does business, both the decision making and the secrecy in which they make them but I'm still a fan and one day things will turn around.(Right?)
Dear KnowKnow, the poor wretched Sisters of the Poor, also known as the Seton Hall BB fan, has realized that they will never be granted the miracle of Lourdes. They know that all we have is one miracle victory a year. Which happens. It's awesome.
I should have known when I could say "remember the Louisville game when Hazell...." and everyone says YAH!.
If we can literally remember the one amazing victory each year, year over year, we are in the city of the damned. That's the truth.
I cannot disrespect you for holding out for at least this. It's the prisoner's condign measure. The only thing left - I was flogged and beaten for a year, but they gave me a nice cake one day, and it was joyful bliss.
That is all we have. Should we chose to enjoy it. Please know - I am no longer angry. I get it. It's just a marginal entertainment, that's all.
EPIC - You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means considering we have frittered away potential NCAA bids twice in four years.
I remember the DePaul game and based on how often you have mentioned it over the years, I kind of suspected it raised red flags with you. Of course, Willard deserves blame for the no-show. But we had an experienced group of seniors who had struggled an awful lot to get that far and who knew how close they were to reaching the NCAA tournament. Yet, they chose not to make the final effort that would have put them over the top. At some point, it has to fall on them too.
If attendance plummets (especially season tix purchases) it will become too big to ignore (maybe not with this administration).
We are not totally irrelevant. Theres one nano particle of hope left for us. Willard's salary is going to look alot bigger when theres literally no revenue coming back in. We're at the point where we are paying a guy an enormous amount of money to lose an enormous amount of money (and games, and respect, and pride)
We are not totally irrelevant. Theres one nano particle of hope left for us. Willard's salary is going to look alot bigger when theres literally no revenue coming back in. We're at the point where we are paying a guy an enormous amount of money to lose an enormous amount of money (and games, and respect, and pride)
WOW. have never hears of giving an extension where first of all at that point what did Willard do? We were close to a bid. But talked to some people today and not one person ever heard of giving a coach an extension and in the terms of the extension that there was no way in which Willard could be bought out if after a certain amount of time expectations were not met. Yet at the same time within that extension I guarantee their had to be a clause that would allow Willard to leave for another job. One of my closest friends is in the Athletic Dept. at Iowa State. I explained the situation the best I could and if I explained it correctly he told me its almost impossible to give out an extension to a coach where it basically guarantees that he doesn't get fired for a certain period of time. I think if that's true then im not sure where we go as a University. The school has lawyers I know but maybe they should get real experts in this field. If this is really written in stone then the school is choosing Willard and his 5 years and making him literally ore important than the program. I still think if the school wanted anything can be worked out.
Friend, I am not agin you.
We can all see how terribly beaten down we are as fans. The die is cast already for next season. We are in the great cosmic game of Chicken, that is how many fans will be lost year over year during this terrible stretch of hopelessness o come.
We know that every single fan lost now is a truly hard core long term fan who will never come back.
Since the school is willing to go this route, all I have is my own insouciance.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I'm as displeased as the rest with where we're at right now but we've been down for a while and all it took was the excitement of our recruiting class and a decent start to the season to reignite a defeated fan base. The crowds were better earlier this year than any I've seen in 20 years of being a fan. We also have talented kids who committed to our school who should be supported. These posts are getting a little ridiculous but obviously feel free to keep posting them. But Maybe show a tiny bit of respect to our admin who has already stated earlier in this thread that he's basically thrown his hands up trying to keep the board under control.
The board is under control. In fact, i dont think this board has ever been more unified. Hes just upset with the content. Unfortunately thats not the posters' fault.
I can just start posting a lot of OT stuff since its the only thing left after WBB
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I dont disagree with a lot of the sentiment. I'm just choosing a different tact when it comes to my posts. Doesn't make me more right or wrong. But I'm seeing these posts as a complete mutiny for the first time ever that I can remember. You don't see the piling on? Willard's making millions on some of our dimes, but the players deserve some support.
This post was edited on 3/9 8:48 PM by phi_pirates
This post was edited on 3/9 8:48 PM by phi_pirates
Personally, trying to rid willard of this program (for 5 years now) IS supporting our players. They deserve better. They need better. I want to see them win. Sick of seeing guys like Fu, Teague, Mobley, Theodore, etc leave college giving it their all and nothing to show for it.
I'll be there at 7. Woulda been nice if our coach could have led this team to even our preseason BE ranking so i could go the next night too (if we win). But i cant take off.
I'll be there at 7. Woulda been nice if our coach could have led this team to even our preseason BE ranking so i could go the next night too (if we win). But i cant take off.
Haha, touche. We have made this quite ordinary. The fact that we have spit up potential NCAA bids twice in four years by lost 9 of 13 in one season and 11 of 14 in another is amazing. What a pattern.
I agree some falls on that group. They came back and played much harder in the BET that year. Just like much falls on the experienced players last year that lost many close games. But we were flat as a pancake. No fire. That's where a good coach inspires. PJ would've had them on the bench, for example. Even Orr.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Bd - we all know now that's not happening so the options are to either a. Throw in the towel and keep criticizing the admin, coach etc or b. Continue to support the players and program and hope we turn the corner next year. I still believe we have the talent to be good next year so why not focus on that since our hands are tied with regard to the other issues we'd like addressed
I think im starting to sound as redundant as some others on here so I'll stop posting my thoughts on this.
This post was edited on 3/9 9:23 PM by phi_pirates
I think im starting to sound as redundant as some others on here so I'll stop posting my thoughts on this.
This post was edited on 3/9 9:23 PM by phi_pirates
perhaps the talent, work ethic and drive are there from the players but ineptitude is on the head man, i felt amaker was an overachieving coach with 2 great srs, lane sam d and a bunch of role players in 99-00 and he underachieved terribly with perhaps the best raw talented roster shu had at the time in about the last 7 or 8 seasons....orr was an achiever not booster political friendly and was shown the door, bobby brought the enthusiasm but took short cuts to get the roster to what he wanted and was not savvy with players, ie double ball screens for hazell or running baseline curls for hazell was not always going to work; willard remember his first year when he said he only installed 10 percent of his offense, what happened to the rest of the offense? and this defense the fact that shu was a defensive 3 pt fg percentage leader shows that stats and analytic can misleading at times because shu was torched on made 3s by opponents at key times this season just backbreaking shots
I feel bad for Halldan, he got played 
This whole thing is so rotten, but I am proud of the public relations of the athletic department.
You all said that they were wrong for Not getting out in front of it. They were so in front of it, you guys had no clue. They already had the company line out to the Fox network, and evidently Feinstein got hit with the talk of extension as well.
You all read the Magna thread, this was all a show with the Georgetown 2 pointer. Willard is doing whatever he can, and while I originally was mad at JTIII, I now see how much of a ploy it all was, and I wouldn't want anything to do with it either.
We all got mislead and they are so genius, they even got Dan sucked in again to their propaganda to say that he is coming back, and stop complaining.
Bravo Pravda!
This whole thing is so rotten, but I am proud of the public relations of the athletic department.
You all said that they were wrong for Not getting out in front of it. They were so in front of it, you guys had no clue. They already had the company line out to the Fox network, and evidently Feinstein got hit with the talk of extension as well.
You all read the Magna thread, this was all a show with the Georgetown 2 pointer. Willard is doing whatever he can, and while I originally was mad at JTIII, I now see how much of a ploy it all was, and I wouldn't want anything to do with it either.
We all got mislead and they are so genius, they even got Dan sucked in again to their propaganda to say that he is coming back, and stop complaining.
Bravo Pravda!
Kevin Willard is our coach. He is awful. We have no discipline. We have no organization. We have no motivation. And the fans know it. And we have complained. And he has been derided. But the administration doesn't give a rat's ass what we think. They care about money. They like him. Regardless of the fact that being inept and bad at your job for five years would get you released anywhere else. We are stuck with an awful coach. Most likely we are going to lose players. We will have no height other than Delgado, no offensive system, no motivation, no discipline, no player accountability for next year. We will sink deeper in a hole. And the school just wants us to shut up about it, stop sending them emails, gives zero response to our criticism, but still ask us to give them money. And we are all supposed be happy about it, be good little supporters, cheer for a coach we don't believe in, an administration who doesn't care what we think, and take our wallets out. I am not going to make it that easy for them...sorry.
But since we are stuck with Willard, here are some changes I think we should make that would drastically help us next year.
1. Motivational Coach.
Willard needs a motivational coach so that he an inject some energy into the team. Right now he couldn't motivate a gumball out of a gumball machine with a pocketfull of quarters. Kung Fu Freddie had karate moves, Gonzo was an absolute lunatic, and Tony Bozzella uses a his jacket as both a whip and a matador cape. Willard has the dread...CLAPPING. That is about as motivational as a pink slip. My suggestion: Hanz and Franz. If anyone can pump up WIllard, it would be them. Right now he is a scrawny little girly man clapping in the wind, but Hanz and Franz could change that.
2. Actual Coaching
Since we have zero offensive sets, no inbounds plays other than the infamous "throw the ball over half court", and we couldn't box out the geriatric wing at Clara Mass, we need some basketball learning. I suggest instead of a Pirate Blue money donation we all chip in and by http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-Basketball-Dummies-National-Alliance/dp/0470149760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1425994072&sr=8-2&keywords=basketball+for+dummies[/URL]
But since we are stuck with Willard, here are some changes I think we should make that would drastically help us next year.
1. Motivational Coach.
Willard needs a motivational coach so that he an inject some energy into the team. Right now he couldn't motivate a gumball out of a gumball machine with a pocketfull of quarters. Kung Fu Freddie had karate moves, Gonzo was an absolute lunatic, and Tony Bozzella uses a his jacket as both a whip and a matador cape. Willard has the dread...CLAPPING. That is about as motivational as a pink slip. My suggestion: Hanz and Franz. If anyone can pump up WIllard, it would be them. Right now he is a scrawny little girly man clapping in the wind, but Hanz and Franz could change that.
2. Actual Coaching
Since we have zero offensive sets, no inbounds plays other than the infamous "throw the ball over half court", and we couldn't box out the geriatric wing at Clara Mass, we need some basketball learning. I suggest instead of a Pirate Blue money donation we all chip in and by http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-Basketball-Dummies-National-Alliance/dp/0470149760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1425994072&sr=8-2&keywords=basketball+for+dummies[/URL]
