The GOAT
- Thread starter Halldan1
- Start date
The argument still begins at #2. LeBron may enter the conversation for GOAT some day, but it ain't today.
Because of his legendary status and big time boost from Nike Jordan is a God to most and many believe that no one else should be in the conversation as the GOAT. But I don't agree that he is head and shoulders over his closest competitor.
ESPN has been having this conversation the past 7 days or so as James now 32 is playing as well as he ever has and many (not half) are now siding with James being the GOAT. I'm not quite there yet but I am close.
Personally I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks there is no comparison.
Each player has advantages over the other. They will be discussed further I'm sure as this post has more participants. But to me it's thisclose.
1. Jordan
1A James
then all the other greats from Magic, to Jabbar, to Shaq, to Wilt, to Russell.......
ESPN has been having this conversation the past 7 days or so as James now 32 is playing as well as he ever has and many (not half) are now siding with James being the GOAT. I'm not quite there yet but I am close.
Personally I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks there is no comparison.
Each player has advantages over the other. They will be discussed further I'm sure as this post has more participants. But to me it's thisclose.
1. Jordan
1A James
then all the other greats from Magic, to Jabbar, to Shaq, to Wilt, to Russell.......
Jordan is the GOAT, but Lebron is a more complete player.
Also, Lebron is probably the most scrutinized athlete ever.
Also, Lebron is probably the most scrutinized athlete ever.
Lebron beating the Warriors got him back in the discussion. Beating the Warriors with Durant and he's going to pass Jordon in some people's eyes.
It would be nice if we could just fast forward to that series.
It would be nice if we could just fast forward to that series.
I agree that beating the Warriors last year (even if it was largely due to Green being suspended for Game 5) was huge in my eyes. The fact he got his first 2 rings by going to Miami to play with Wade/Bosh was a negative in my opinion.
For me, that was what made Jordan's all the better. He stayed with the same team, had to beat his head against the wall to finally get past the Pistons, then went 6 for 6 in The Finals. Had he not taken 2 years off after his fathers death to try baseball, he might have gone 8 for 8. Obviously he had great players with him during those runs (especially Pippen) but the fact he didn't.
To me, LBJ is the more complete player and an athletic freak with what he can do on both ends. Jordan was an all time great defender as well though. Jordan just had that unbelievable killer instinct. It's not an open and shut case that Jordan is the GOAT in my eyes, but I have yet to see anyone overtake him.
If LBJ can do it once again versus GS with Durant, I might really start shifting my thinking.
Funny thing is I used to route for LBJ when he was first in CLE. Seemed he had them on the right trajectory. When he went to MIA I routed like heck for anyone playing them. Now that he's back in CLE I was routing for them to beat GS last year and will do so again this year. Just something I like about not trying to do it the "All Star" route like they did in MIA and GS is doing this year (imo) with Durant.
If he is the greatest of all time, how would his game translate into the modern era?
Look at it this way, one on one game, who would win?
As much as I am in awe of Jordan, Lebron is a physical specimen that combines great strength, size and athleticism. Lebron is like having a Karl Malone body with the althleticsm of Jordan. Jordan was a better shooter than Lebron. But that's the only advantage I see over Lebron. Slight edge to James over Jordan
As much as I am in awe of Jordan, Lebron is a physical specimen that combines great strength, size and athleticism. Lebron is like having a Karl Malone body with the althleticsm of Jordan. Jordan was a better shooter than Lebron. But that's the only advantage I see over Lebron. Slight edge to James over Jordan
I was expecting to read about NYC playground legend Earl Manigault, the Goat. But if we're talking GOAT, I'd go with Wilt. More hunch than anythung cause I don't watch the pro game today and was only an NBA fan during the playoffs in Jordan's era. I was a Knicks fan as a kid and never liked Wilt, but if you watch video of this guy early in his career, you'd be hard pressed to find a better talent. He and Bill Russell were the best of friends, which us fans only learned years later and Russell took Wilt to the Washington Mall to see MLK's historic speech.
Then you wouldn't like what your favorite analyst thinks. LeBron isn't in his top 5 SFs and Gs.
I think you can compare them, but it's not a very long conversation right now. It can be some day. This takes nothing away from LeBron, who is inching closer to MJ. Both are amazing talents, physical specimens, have tons of stats/accolades, etc. Both are transcendent, once in a lifetime type talents. And they're both elite two-way players. They sometimes don't get the credit for their defense, because what they do with the ball is so spectacular. The separation, for me, comes down Jordan's insatiable desire to win, refusal to lose, killer instinct, rising to the occasion, and the consistency in which he displayed all of them. It's unparalleled, not just in basketball, but probably in sports. Can't touch the GOAT right now, but LeBron has a chance to make an argument of it in time.
So by this rationale, if the Warriors beat Lebron and he goes 3-5 in NBA finals can we please end the discussion? Heck he could very easily if not for a Mirical shot by Ray Allen and a Dremon Green suspension/Andrew Bogut Injury be 1-7. He is not now and never will overtake MJ for the GOAT. I hated MJ as he beat the knicks all the time but have to recognize greatness. If not for MJ the Knicks could have won at least 2 Championships. MJ was an assassin. He didn't take games off to "Rest" or leave games with cramps because it was too hot.
If you plunked Jordan and LeBron on separate teams of perfectly equal average players at all positions, whose team would win? MJ's, because he wouldn't allow them to lose.
I wouldn't bothering trying. I think LeBron is the best SF and in the Top 5 of all-time (regardless of position) . It wasn't my list and I was surprised to hear the opinion, but it came from someone who forgot more about this game than I could ever possibly know.
BTW, the person in question had Jordan, Magic, Robertson, West, and one I'm forgetting. Then LeBron on his Top SFs and Gs list.
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If some think the comparison between MJ and LBJ really is razor thin close...
When just looking at the two of them...
MJ was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and LBJ is 3 for 7 so far.
NBA Finals records:
MJ 24-11 with 6 Titles
LBJ 17-23 with 3 Titles
When just looking at the two of them...
MJ was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and LBJ is 3 for 7 so far.
NBA Finals records:
MJ 24-11 with 6 Titles
LBJ 17-23 with 3 Titles
The west has been a dominant conference in the Lebron era.
1) Which allowed him to make more finals than MJ.
2) Resulting in Lebron falling short in the finals, whereas MJ fell short before the finals.
This is a passionate topic as both ESPN and Fox have been commenting on it recently and those debates have become intense at times on both stations. That tells me despite what many might believe the choice between the two is a lot closer than the Jordan fans want to believe.
I like these type questions because you can go either way and be right.
Two absolute BB megastars.
I like these type questions because you can go either way and be right.
Two absolute BB megastars.
I think MJ's better shooting is the difference if he is better. He was lucky to never have to face a great team in the finals. (And of course, Lebron lost to a similar team as the ones MJ beat in Dallas...) He isn't winning all those titles in the 80s; he may have never gotten to the finals. MJ was specular from Day one in the NBA but he never could take a team to the finals till he got the surrounding cast, unlike James.
Funny how Russell is never a factor in this discussion, or Jabbar.
Funny how Russell is never a factor in this discussion, or Jabbar.
My top 10
And I note this knowing that it's impossible to truly make an universally accurate list.
1. Jordan
2. James
3. Jabbar
4. Magic
5. Chamberlain
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bird
Honorable mention
Robertson
Olajuwan
West
Malone
And I note this knowing that it's impossible to truly make an universally accurate list.
1. Jordan
2. James
3. Jabbar
4. Magic
5. Chamberlain
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bird
Honorable mention
Robertson
Olajuwan
West
Malone
In basketball, I think there's always a lean towards players who can create their own offense, ball handling, etc.
Russell was just an incredible winner. Didn't care one iota about stats or flamboyance. I can't remember him once (I'm sure he did) blocking a shot that went out of bounds. He had the softest blocking technique imaginable.
He always said blocking a shot out of bounds accomplishes nothing. Keeping it in play gives us a chance to retrieve it.
Now, with all that said his teams were so much better than the opposition that he is never going to be recognized as the best because of that.
He always said blocking a shot out of bounds accomplishes nothing. Keeping it in play gives us a chance to retrieve it.
Now, with all that said his teams were so much better than the opposition that he is never going to be recognized as the best because of that.
Hard to argue with anyone on Dan's list. The only missing player in my viewpoint (not sure who to replace) is Dr J. Watching Net games as a teenager, you never knew what was coming next.
As for Jordan v LeBron, the killer instinct of MJ is too much to overcome by anyone. It made him the best ever.
As for Jordan v LeBron, the killer instinct of MJ is too much to overcome by anyone. It made him the best ever.
Many forget those Celtics were "all star" teams in their own right.
There's at least one HofF'er who believes The Big O is the GOAT
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They had all star laden lineups, the best coach/smartest GM and played beautiful basketball, and I am a Laker fan whose heart they broke for the whole decade of the 60s.Many forget those Celtics were "all star" teams in their own right.
There's at least one HofF'er who believes The Big O in the GOAT
Have to disagree with your assessment that it is close. Can anyone here name the HOF player Lebron has had to go through to get to the finals? MJ went through a gauntlet just to get there in the east every year. Ewing, Reggie Miller, Shaquille O'Neil, Alonzo Mourning, Isaiah Thomas and the bad boy pistons not to mention the players he beat in the finals. You can't name a team that lebron has had to play in the east that even compares to any of those teams. He is closer to being 1 for 7 in finals appearances than he is to being the GOAT.
Didn't Lebron just beat the best regular season team ever in a 7 game series for the championship?
He took a team that started Mozgov, Delladova, & JR Smith to game 6 and should have been the MVP.
Why does he get penalized for losing in the finals, but Jordan doesn't get penalized for not even making the finals?
He took a team that started Mozgov, Delladova, & JR Smith to game 6 and should have been the MVP.
Why does he get penalized for losing in the finals, but Jordan doesn't get penalized for not even making the finals?
Yes, with the help of the league office suspending green and bogut getting injured his team was able to come back and win the series. Who exactly did he beat to get to that series?? Once Jordan broke through he never lost again. He also didn't leave the bulls to team up with an all star team to get a championship.
