The Swamp Just Got Bigger

[SPK145]

With this deplorable spending bill. A lot of republicants talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Just despicable to increase funding for this welfare/warfare state we live in now. Am now hoping the republicants lose the House now but gain seats in the Senate.

This new spending now will get added to the baseline on which further budgets will be based on.

 

[Merge]

With this deplorable spending bill. A lot of republicants talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Just despicable to increase funding for this welfare/warfare state we live in now. Am now hoping the republicants lose the House now but gain seats in the Senate.

This new spending now will get added to the baseline on which further budgets will be based on.

It adds back some breaks they couldn't include in the tax bill because it would have pushed the tax bill above the 1.5 trillion threshold blocking its passage.

Cuts were never on the table. Too politically costly especially in a mid term year.

 

[HALL85]

The work product that Congress and the White House has put out over the past two decades is horrendous. No leadership, no tough decisions, kicking the can down the road on a regular basis. The longer the electorate chooses to dig in in their heels behind the ideology of each party, the longer we all lose.

 

[SPK145]

It adds back some breaks they couldn't include in the tax bill because it would have pushed the tax bill above the 1.5 trillion threshold blocking its passage.

Cuts were never on the table. Too politically costly especially in a mid term year.

I didn't think you'd ever be for any actual spending cuts regardless of how you've spun it here in the past. True colors.

 

[SPK145]

The longer the electorate chooses to dig in in their heels behind the ideology of each party, the longer we all lose.

It's not ideology, it's outright lies and rank hypocrisy.

 

[Merge]

I didn't think you'd ever be for any actual spending cuts regardless of how you've spun it here in the past. True colors.

Like I said last time, cuts are just too granular of a topic so no one really talks about them here.
There is plenty of room for cuts and I have maintained that I do believe there is a lot of spending that is worthwhile, and some which can be cut.

For an example - I think it would have been a worthwhile investment to spend heavily on alternative energies because we are letting other countries beat us to something that could be creating more jobs here in America. I was also in favor of tax credits for purchasing fuel efficient vehicles which would help drop the cost of the cars to compete with traditional cars on price. However, we have approaching a time where fuel efficient cars can be competitively priced without a government credit. - it is probably time to start phasing out that credit. That is just a small example of something I am assuming you would think I would be against cutting.

As a more general rule, during times of economic struggles I want the republicans to start to recognize that we can't rely on the private sector to pull us out and we need some kind of stimulus to get us moving again... and I want the democrats to recognize that once the economy is moving - we can let the private sector take over.

 

[Pirata]

Subsidizing fuel efficient vehicles, alternative energy, stimulus... Hmmm, let me think..... where have we heard that before?

 

[Merge]

Subsidizing fuel efficient vehicles, alternative energy, stimulus... Hmmm, let me think..... where have we heard that before?

Not sure what you’re trying to say. Just say it.

 

[Pirata]

Free market.

No more Solyndras, energy policies that help terrorists, and stimulus packages that help assholes get re-elected.

Got it?

 

[SPK145]

The government should not, and has a terrible record at, picking winners and losers.

 

[Pirata]

As I watch the Olympics I can't help to think of the contrast between North and South Korea.

North Korea, a country where the government runs everything.

South Korea, a country in the free market and capitalism.

Any questions?

 

[Merge]

“Any questions” lol.... yes. Where did you get your info on South Korea?

South Korea was built on support from government spending and are currently at the top of spending in R&D as a % of GDP. They are investing heavily in the future which is exactly what I support. They also just increased spending towards social welfare programs as an economic stimulous. The South Korean government is also the majority shareholder of Kepco- the company that provides more than 90% of the power in South Korea.

Name an industry that started in America without help from the government.

All of us lived through a massive boom from the tech industry... all of which started from commercialized government research projects.

We are competing globally against countries (like South Korea) where they are willing to invest. Sure we can talk about Solyndra - but you can't talk about them and ignore the success of Tesla. Tesla borrowed from the same fund and alone has created tens of thousands of jobs in the US. The entire loan program from Obama runs around close to a net zero cost because of the money that was paid in as interest... and you can’t downplay the significance of the number of jobs it helped create during a time when no one was creating jobs.

 

[HALL85]

I think you're discounting The point in time where each country has been or is. Government investment may have been what was needed coming out of a post-war era. We have a much more mature economy with competition, expertise and resources in just about every sector. For instance, most medical research in this country is thankfully not done by the government.

Let's also be honest in that South Korea's last president was impeached because they of payoffs between her and some of the people heading up these government organizations. As you know, I would prefer the government provide services only that private industry can't (defense, etc). Get out of businesses that can be run much better by the private sector like the VA.

 

[Pirata]

Name an industry that started in America without help from the government.

Steel. Subsequently ruined in part by excessive environment regulation.

Actually, how about naming an industry that WAS started by the government. Defence excluded.

Are you saying the government STARTED agriculture, manufacturing, mining, electronics, healthcare, etc?

Are you serious.

 

[Merge]

I think you're discounting The point in time where each country has been or is. Government investment may have been what was needed coming out of a post-war era. We have a much more mature economy with competition, expertise and resources in just about every sector. For instance, most medical research in this country is thankfully not done by the government.

Right.. and we had all of that during the great recession.
Why weren't companies bringing us out of the recession on their own?

Private companies do not invest without demand. They will not helps our economy out of a recession because they have to think for their bottom line. They are correct in that and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

We are often "post" something... Post war, post 9/11, post crash, etc... In some cases, we need the government to stimulate the market.

I also believe becoming a world leader for sciences and technology is important. In aims not only to attract the best students / scientists here... but also to create the jobs here.

Let's also be honest in that South Korea's last president was impeached because they of payoffs between her and some of the people heading up these government organizations.

I wasn't putting them on a pedestal. Just pointing out that using them as an example of a capitalistic success if comically wrong.

As you know, I would prefer the government provide services only that private industry can't (defense, etc). Get out of businesses that can be run much better by the private sector like the VA.

I agree. Get rid of the VA. It is not needed. I am not suggesting government ownership of industry. I am just saying that in some cases - Investments / subsidies so an industry can succeed here is sometimes the right thing to do.

 

[Merge]

Are you saying the government STARTED agriculture, manufacturing, mining, electronics, healthcare, etc?

Not what I said at all.

I am saying that every industry has benefited from government investment.

Steel industry was aided by government infrastructure.
Agriculture was aided by government funding for research as well as government highways to transport their goods. Oil industry received heavy subsidies for oil exploration etc.

All I am saying is that some government spending is good.

 

[Pirata]

All of us lived through a massive boom from the tech industry... all of which started from commercialized government research projects.

Really? All of Which.

Yes, the internet had its roots in DARPA net, a government network. It floundered for 25 years until the private sector took over and made the internet into something.

Are you truly saying the government started the tech industry? Then again, Al Gore invented the internet and so perhaps you are right.

Look, I understand there is role for Government in business. It's a small role.

This little spat started when I reacted to your clean energy and stimulus post. Let's not lose sight of that.

The stimulus was a colossal misuse of taxpayer dollars. You'll are worried about a $12M parade while you are calling for another $800B of pork.

Alternative energy will be here when the free market can support it.

You are the student of economics. You should know that any industry that is subsidized ends up with inflated prices. I was guessing that based on your posts that you in Higher Ed. You should know more than anyone then that your industry has been subsidized by Uncle Sugar. The day of reckoning is on the horizon for higher ed. Check out the discount rate trends for tuition. The availability of government loans has subsidized the industry, saddled kids with debt they can can never pay back, garnered democratic votes, and inflated university payrolls. Higher Ed is the next bubble and it was largely caused by the government.

Shrink the government, get them out of the way.

 

[Pirata]

Steel industry was aided by government infrastructure.

Say what? Please explain that one. Steel was horizontally integrated from the Mine to the Mills.

Get yourself a copy of "Crisis in Bethlehem". It won a Pulitzer.

There were several factors in the decline of Steel. The government was one of them. They allowed foreign dumping while forcing unsustainable demand on capital to meet excessive emissions standards.

i don't recall any lengthy praise for the Government helping the company get started. WW II certainly helped them, bu other than that, the Uncle Sugar was not exactly their friend.

 

[Pirata]

All I am saying is that some government spending is good.

Sure, we can all agree on that.

But if you believe a $800B stimulus that created 640,000 (claimed) jobs is a good investment, then I question your business judgement or your ability to do simple math.

 

[Merge]

Say what? Please explain that one. Steel was horizontally integrated from the Mine to the Mills.

Early 1900's - How was the steel industry impacted by building the Navy ships? Bridges? Construction beams for government infrastructure protects?

 

[Merge]

Sure, we can all agree on that.

But if you believe a $800B stimulus that created 640,000 (claimed) jobs is a good investment, then I question your business judgement or your ability to do simple math.

The stimulus helped us out of the worst economic crisis in 80 years. It increased employment by millions of people had the stimulus not been passed into law.
If can't just look at the cost. You also have to look at the cost of not implementing the law. What would we have looked like at 12%+ unemployment?

Yes. It was worth it.

 

[SPK145]

The stimulus helped us out of the worst economic crisis in 80 years. It increased employment by millions of people had the stimulus not been passed into law.
If can't just look at the cost. You also have to look at the cost of not implementing the law. What would we have looked like at 12%+ unemployment?

Yes. It was worth it.

The stimulus spending wasn’t a one-time $800 billion. It was added into the baseline budget numbers going forward and has been spent many times over now.

 

[Merge]

The stimulus spending wasn’t a one-time $800 billion. It was added into the baseline budget numbers going forward and has been spent many times over now.

The price tag was the cost of the program through 2019... some was extended, most has expired.
I believe a significant chunk was from the tax credits which were replaced with a payroll tax deduction and expired in 2011 or so?

Again - our options were stimulus or no stimulus. Wasn't perfect but perfect wasn't on the table.
Given where we were and where we were heading - I pick stimulus every time.

 

[HALL85]

We can argue the merits of the stimulus, but what is criminal is that no one that put the country in that position was held accountable and sent to jail. Before there were any bail outs, there should have been actions taken.