Time for Mara and Tisch to sell
- Thread starter NYShoreGuy
- Start date
Any successful sports franchise can not change head coach and GM every 2 to 4 years and that not be a reflection of ownership over their own heads.
Giants stunningly sticking with Brian Daboll, Joe Schoen after abysmal season
Fans who wanted sweeping change as a result of the Giants going 3-14 in the 100th season in franchise history will be disappointed by this.
nypost.com
Giants stunningly sticking with Brian Daboll, Joe Schoen after abysmal season
Fans who wanted sweeping change as a result of the Giants going 3-14 in the 100th season in franchise history will be disappointed by this.
nypost.com
Giants stunningly sticking with Brian Daboll, Joe Schoen after abysmal season
The beat goes on with the Giants terrible ownership. Schoen inherited a team with a bad O line, questionable QB, a decent D line, no CBs for the future, weak LB corps and weak WR and TE. We ended the year with the 31st best offense (out of 32 teams) and the 24th best defense. He and Daboll inherited a 4 win team coming off a year when the Giants had the 29th best offense and 16th best defense. Zero progress and the team went backwards in the W-L category.
Schoen is my biggest issue as he has done very little to fix the O line (Neal is a bust and Schmitz is marginal at best while the revolving door of free agents will have to continue). Our best O lineman was drafted by Gettleman. Our CB situation is bad (Banks is at best a 3rd corner - Phillips looks very promising at the slot) but we need two starters or hope Banks gets better in which case we need a #1 CB. He tried to fix the edge rusher issue and could only do that by paying Burns a lot in free agency. His draft of Thibs was another miss. Thibs is awful against the run and finished with 6 sacks. He's messed up the DT position and as a result of no DT next to Dex and our edge guys can't hold the edge we are easy to run against (27th run defense in the league).
The QB situation is now in his hands as he's messed that up terribly and we will carry Jones dead cap money next year (albeit a smaller amount). 31st best offense out of 32.
The WR room is better with Nabers but Hyatt is a bust and Slayton is marginal at best. Robinson is decent but did you ever notice he never catches a ball downfield (is that the QB or his very slight frame?). We still need a solid #2 WR. TE room is very young but there is some promise there - no game breakers though just blockers.
He has not drafted one pro bowler in three years. Nabers has the potential but in 3 years not one pro bowler and our best guys on the team were drafted by Gettlemen.
So Mr Mara says let's keep him and the coach too? I give up!
I really thought the fact that it's so easy to buy Giants game tickets and season tickets now that would move Mara to do something. I think Schoen is a good # 2 GM - he's the contract guy and the guy who works the salary cap issues etc. I do not believe he is the shrewd GM who is a team builder at all. Daboll can only coach the guys he has but he is clearly learning how to be a HC on the job. The Giants should be able to do so much better than these two.
My bet is we are having this same conversation this time next year especially with the Giants schedule next year. If he is still an OC, talk to Kliff Kingsbury. He's been a HC before and he's done a great job with the offense wherever he's been.
Schoen is my biggest issue as he has done very little to fix the O line (Neal is a bust and Schmitz is marginal at best while the revolving door of free agents will have to continue). Our best O lineman was drafted by Gettleman. Our CB situation is bad (Banks is at best a 3rd corner - Phillips looks very promising at the slot) but we need two starters or hope Banks gets better in which case we need a #1 CB. He tried to fix the edge rusher issue and could only do that by paying Burns a lot in free agency. His draft of Thibs was another miss. Thibs is awful against the run and finished with 6 sacks. He's messed up the DT position and as a result of no DT next to Dex and our edge guys can't hold the edge we are easy to run against (27th run defense in the league).
The QB situation is now in his hands as he's messed that up terribly and we will carry Jones dead cap money next year (albeit a smaller amount). 31st best offense out of 32.
The WR room is better with Nabers but Hyatt is a bust and Slayton is marginal at best. Robinson is decent but did you ever notice he never catches a ball downfield (is that the QB or his very slight frame?). We still need a solid #2 WR. TE room is very young but there is some promise there - no game breakers though just blockers.
He has not drafted one pro bowler in three years. Nabers has the potential but in 3 years not one pro bowler and our best guys on the team were drafted by Gettlemen.
So Mr Mara says let's keep him and the coach too? I give up!
I really thought the fact that it's so easy to buy Giants game tickets and season tickets now that would move Mara to do something. I think Schoen is a good # 2 GM - he's the contract guy and the guy who works the salary cap issues etc. I do not believe he is the shrewd GM who is a team builder at all. Daboll can only coach the guys he has but he is clearly learning how to be a HC on the job. The Giants should be able to do so much better than these two.
My bet is we are having this same conversation this time next year especially with the Giants schedule next year. If he is still an OC, talk to Kliff Kingsbury. He's been a HC before and he's done a great job with the offense wherever he's been.
To bring back Schoen makes absolutely zero sense as to Daboll given what talent he had especially at QB and OL I’d give him another year.
I don’t have much a feeling either way beyond agreeing best to keep them together or fire them both. Maybe it’s apathy, maybe it’s going through this so much with same results. Mara showing serious faith in Schoen/Daboll to give them more time and patience. Maybe he recognizes the meddling has impeded them, who knows what goes on there as there are huge institutional problems that perhaps are changing.
They basically gutted the roster in Year 3 when most expected that in Year 1, expect they built the Year 3 roster. LMAO!
I hope patience proves to be a virtue. They have many needs starting with the most important position on the field where they level of play they’ve gotten from it over the past two seasons is atrocious and is reason #1 they’re 9-25 over that span. Pathetic.
They basically gutted the roster in Year 3 when most expected that in Year 1, expect they built the Year 3 roster. LMAO!
I hope patience proves to be a virtue. They have many needs starting with the most important position on the field where they level of play they’ve gotten from it over the past two seasons is atrocious and is reason #1 they’re 9-25 over that span. Pathetic.
I don’t have a feeling either way on keeping them or moving on. But I agree with those that said if you keep one you should keep the other. They are only two years removed from surprising success where the HC won coach of the year and a road playoff game.
Giants have been run poorly for a while now, but I would pump the breaks on the ownership being “terrible”. It wasn’t too long ago you probably would be laughed at for saying that given the decades-run of success the franchise had compared to most others in the league.
Some will say “you can’t trade on those Super Bowls” forever. Well, when you win 4 out of 5 in a relatively short time period, you kind of can. Because not many attain that level of success. As a Seton Hall fan and a Knicks fan, I try not to let the recent failures color my overall experience as a Giants fan (I do the same with the Yankees).
It’s a moot point anyway it seems because the Giants are a Mara family business.
Giants have been run poorly for a while now, but I would pump the breaks on the ownership being “terrible”. It wasn’t too long ago you probably would be laughed at for saying that given the decades-run of success the franchise had compared to most others in the league.
Some will say “you can’t trade on those Super Bowls” forever. Well, when you win 4 out of 5 in a relatively short time period, you kind of can. Because not many attain that level of success. As a Seton Hall fan and a Knicks fan, I try not to let the recent failures color my overall experience as a Giants fan (I do the same with the Yankees).
It’s a moot point anyway it seems because the Giants are a Mara family business.
Brilliant move by Giants to float story that Daboll could go and Schoen stay. Everyone then said well if Schoen is staying, then you need to keep Daboll. Conditioned everyone for full retention being not the worst option.
Can be like turning the Titanic when times change and an organization has a lot of cronyism and/or nepotism. It’s not always the case but can be sometimes. You get the sense the Giants were that based on some reports that have been coming out based upon how they went about their business internally. Then clearly you had a successful franchise that did not have patience.
2015 fire HC, keep GM
2017 fire GM and HC
2019 fire HC, Keep GM
2021 fire GM and HC
That’s a lot of chaos and change out for a franchise.
2015 fire HC, keep GM
2017 fire GM and HC
2019 fire HC, Keep GM
2021 fire GM and HC
That’s a lot of chaos and change out for a franchise.
Or they realized nobody is coming to work for a lame duck GM.
They would get someone. Maybe not who they want. But there are only so many HC gigs, and most guys spend their entire careers chasing them. You might even end up with someone good. But then you get into the dynamic of a first year HC with a 4th year GM on the hot seat. That can lead to all kinds of problems with the decision-making, motives and internal politics. Like the Idzik/Rex scenario, as one example.
These guys are potential sacrificial lambs next year with the Giants schedule. If they succeed, great and Mara is rewarded for patience. If not, he treated them fairly.
Don't like it! Especially Schoen. His demeanor in Hard Knocks and his track record make him look a real wiener. Personally would have liked to get Vrabel who's a damn good coach and solid guy to run a locker room.
Could this be the best case scenario?...first 2 picks are QBs and the Giants get Hunter (please don't burn draft capital to move up for either of those 2 QB!!!) then stock up on filling some much needed holes in their roster. Get a holding place QB. With the tough schedule tank again and get their QB for the future next year.
Could this be the best case scenario?...first 2 picks are QBs and the Giants get Hunter (please don't burn draft capital to move up for either of those 2 QB!!!) then stock up on filling some much needed holes in their roster. Get a holding place QB. With the tough schedule tank again and get their QB for the future next year.
Next year's schedule already sets up an excuse to retain them another year. The best head coaches like Vrabel were probably not coming here. If it doesn't work out, I really like it when a team hires a head coach that spent time in the head position already. I really like Kingsbury. Bellicheck failed in Cleveland and then he turned it around in New England and had a very successful career. You can see Daboll is learning on the job and had made some big mistakes along with Schoen.
Hopefully Mara is rewarded by making the dumb decision. But the guy has to set some goals for these guys to stay and then stick to it. They made a huge mistake believing this team was good after the first year and that has set the franchise back years.
Hopefully Mara is rewarded by making the dumb decision. But the guy has to set some goals for these guys to stay and then stick to it. They made a huge mistake believing this team was good after the first year and that has set the franchise back years.
Okay, over under for next year.
Giants wins or planes with banners flying over MetLife? I'm going with the planes.
Giants wins or planes with banners flying over MetLife? I'm going with the planes.
So, things don't look promising in any way. Next year's schedule includes the 6 divisional games against Philadelphia, Washington and Dallas. The remaining home games will see: GB, Minn, SF, KC and the Chargers. The remaining road games will be: Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver LV and New England.. As it stands now they be favored 2 or 3 games. An upside season may still have 10 losses. Without a big leap in QB play making the playoffs seems like a pipe dream.
You don’t have 10/12 losing seasons, the worst record in the league over the past 8, and have run through 3 GM’s and 5 HC’s in that span without having major problems institutionally. Starts at the top.
I hope whatever changes Schoen has made internally in turning over the staff is legit and pays off but this is an amazing 3-year trend to support.
I hope whatever changes Schoen has made internally in turning over the staff is legit and pays off but this is an amazing 3-year trend to support.
No line, no Manning. Trade this years pick and get fixing 3 spots on the line if you can. Dan Campbell is doing great in Detroit because he went in and fixed their lines first.
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One change that I see is that Chris Mara say in talent evaluation has been greatly reduced.
You don't need to trade a Top 4 pick to build a good line. You just need to draft more intelligently.
Please not this nonsense again. What does selling the team do? Some sort of billionaire football genius out there nobody knows about?
Both Daboll and Schoen were very highly thought of before they were hired. They didn’t hire incompetent people. Sometimes it’s bad luck.
How many franchises succeed after losing a generational franchise QB? It takes time and luck. How are the colts, patriots, Saints, Steelers doing the last 5 or more years?
Did those owners become idiots overnight too?
Did the Hunt family in KC finally figure out the secret to football after 50 years or did they get lucky with a QB and coach available at the right time. By your logic they should’ve sold the team a long time ago.
I guess Mara just decided he doesn’t care anymore after the team went to 5 super bowls in 25 years. Sure.
Such made up hysteria.
Both Daboll and Schoen were very highly thought of before they were hired. They didn’t hire incompetent people. Sometimes it’s bad luck.
How many franchises succeed after losing a generational franchise QB? It takes time and luck. How are the colts, patriots, Saints, Steelers doing the last 5 or more years?
Did those owners become idiots overnight too?
Did the Hunt family in KC finally figure out the secret to football after 50 years or did they get lucky with a QB and coach available at the right time. By your logic they should’ve sold the team a long time ago.
I guess Mara just decided he doesn’t care anymore after the team went to 5 super bowls in 25 years. Sure.
Such made up hysteria.
I think the ultimate screw up was absolutely ruining any relationship with Coughlin
He is a good football man, legend coach, and connection to the Giants glory days past and present
Even if they didn’t want him coaching anymore..he should have been given more respect and kept the relationship strong and move him upstairs (he did a good job in Jacksonville) and let him be the football czar until he didn’t want to do it anymore
He is a good football man, legend coach, and connection to the Giants glory days past and present
Even if they didn’t want him coaching anymore..he should have been given more respect and kept the relationship strong and move him upstairs (he did a good job in Jacksonville) and let him be the football czar until he didn’t want to do it anymore
John mara was not the owner then. His father was principle and later split with tisch dad.
This isn't a post-Eli slump. The Giants have had two winning seasons since 2012. Even when Eli was with the team and having arguably most productive (individually) offensive years from 2012-2015 they were below .500 most of that stretch.
It unfortunately happens. What franchise in any sport doesn’t go thru down periods? Changing ownership does next to nothing to fix it. Unless there’s true evidence of incompetence (such as the jets story about madden ratings).
As far as we know Mara has done nothing remotely close that.
I myself am not advocating Mara selling the team. I do not believe that he falls under the same umbrella as Woody Johnson or Dan Snyder who would be better off.
What I will say is that the Giants have been arguably the worst operated franchise in the NFL in the last 15 years. I cannot think of a franchise that has fallen from such a lofty perch to where they are today.
And it is not just on the field but off the field too. Tearing down Giants Stadium and building MetLife, a downgrade in just about every single way except in luxury amenities, while financing it through PSLs may have made the team more money, but in all other respects it was a historic boondoggle that left the franchise worse off. Remember when the Giants had a 25 year waiting list for season tickets? Having Giants season tickets was a point of pride, passed down from generation to generation. That's all gone now.
I think that Mara is a well intentioned man who is as passionate as a fan as anyone. It must be killing him that he has tried and failed to turn this team around. But if he truly wants to turn things around and bring the Giants to where they were before, then he needs to do some serious soul-searching and accounting of the decisions made over the last 15 years that have led up to this point.
Jaguars, Panthers, Raiders, Bears, Jets, Dolphins, for the most part the Browns, for 50 years until recently the Lions. Those are all franchises that are run much worse than the Giants. Losing doesn’t always mean you’re a bad organization.
He made two bad coaching hires in Shurmur and Joe Judge. It’s unfortunate it happened back to back. They picked a QB that didn’t work out. Those things happen to nearly every franchise. Even the much maligned Dave Gettleman made some good draft picks looking back. There’s nothing that screams he needs to sell the team. So I just don’t get why fans act like it’s some miracle cure. And when pressed on it nobody ever has a good response to why or how selling fixes things.
They were a pioneering legacy franchise and the nfl was still small ball operation
