Week in review

[Merge]

Last week was fairly crazy with news and I'm not sure where to start but I feel like there was a lot worth discussing.

I'll start with Michael Cohen admitting to paying a porn star 130k of hush money. That's the kind of thing that would have brought down many presidents before him... but I guess we all expected that kind of stuff from Trump so he gets a pass? Will be interesting to see if there is any investigation into that as there are potential legal issues with campaign finance laws.

News that Rick Gates reached a plea deal and will testify against Manafort. Again... pretty clear where this is going. Manafort is a big piece to this puzzle.

The indictment of 13 Russians connected to Russian influence in the 2016 election. If you haven't read the indictment, you should. While we knew generally what occurred, seeing some of that laid out in detail was still fairly jarring. Trump is still ignoring the fact that Russians not only tried to help him win but are generally running a disinformation campaign to make Americans turn on each other. Trump is out there blaming Obama for doing nothing but Trump is literally blocking the sanctions the previous administration wanted which passed through congress with huge bipartisan support. Our democracy was attacked... Whatever your opinions are on what occurred, you have to at least admit Trump doing nothing is wrong. My fears with Trump was that Russia has leverage on him. He has taken the word of Putin over that of our intelligence community building distrust of the FBI among his core followers. Assume for a moment that they do have something on him. What would that look like? Any different than what Trump has done?

Trump tweets out that the report vindicates him because the Russian campaign started in 2014, and he didn't announce he was running until 2015... which of course is total nonsense if you are following along.

17 people murdered in the 18th school shooting of 2018. I hope we can start to review our gun laws here and the culture allowing such easy access to killing machines. Sorry. There is zero reason to own an AR-15 (or similar type of gun) other than they are fun. I hope these kids keep up their protests. Something does "feel" different this time. Hope the issue is not ignore as usual.

Trump blames the FBI for investigating him implying they wouldn't have missed the call about the shooter, as if the FBI has 20 employees and can only do one thing at a time...

Pennsylvania redistricting. Seems like the GOP is upset that their previous gerrymandering efforts have been turned around? Figured the PA people would want to weigh in on this?

 

[HALL85]

Thanks for the update Anderson...

 

[Merge]

Of all the nonsense this board has discussed.... you don’t think the last week was interesting enough to talk about?

I was trying to engage with people who disagree with my political views to gauge their opinions of the last week... even you specifically to get your thoughts on the redistricing in PA.

Oh well. Back to your bubble.

 

[HALL85]

Of all the nonsense this board has discussed.... you don’t think the last week was interesting enough to talk about?

I was trying to engage with people who disagree with my political views to gauge their opinions of the last week... even you specifically to get your thoughts on the redistricing in PA.

Oh well. Back to your bubble.

Merge,, I gave your post the response it deserves. When you express your opinions and. Conspiracy theories as absolutes and use these over the top terms like “I fear” or “jarring”, you might as well be auditioning for CNN.

I really don’t care about who Trump was banging or any marriage infidelity before he was elected.

The Parkland shooting is sickening, but until we get all stakeholders at the same table, the easy and lazy thing to do is point your finger at one enemy as if it is all their fault. Politicians on both side express their positions to continue to jockey for votes, plain and simple. NJ.com ran a survey yesterday that I believe over 12,000 people responded. 80% were against banning assault rifle’s. If you feel the AR/15 has no place, why don’t you start a petition and be the first to sign, saying that he will never, ever purchase such a weapon? You sit in your bubble expressing these absolutes and I’m pretty sure that you haven’t spoken or listened to many if any gun owners.

Trumps tweet was in very poor taste and asinine. But the FBI did F-up big time on this.

There are a number of things we can do to prevent these tragedies. Keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, or taking them away if they do become a risk should be a priority. Getting it illegal guns off the street is another. Mandatory sentencing would put a dent in that. By the way, Trump is meeting with parents teachers and students today for a listening session. Any opinion on that?Would be kind of ironic if he ends up leading meaningful legislation on this when his predecessors over the past 20 years accomplished virtually nothing.

Redistricting in Pennsylvania? Well, I still live in New Jersey and haven’t you learned already from Trump. Politics is a swamp. It just smells a little different from state to state.

 

[Merge]

Merge,, I gave your post the response it deserves. When you express your opinions and. Conspiracy theories as absolutes and use these over the top terms like “I fear” or “jarring”, you might as well be auditioning for CNN.

When I say thinks like "I fear" or "jarring" - Those are my opinions.
X happened - Y is my opinion on what happened. That should be fairly clear.

regarding the Russian interference. I did find it to be jarring. You see that they weren't just trying to help Trump win. I think it is very important to understand that Russians are constantly trying to divide us. They started years ago and have not stopped. They are going after the left and right and I think the leadership we need is the president getting out there explaining what happened with Russians, how he will respond to their attack on our democracy and a message that aims to unify us. If Trump just did that, it would move the needle for me regarding his performance as president.

I really don’t care about who Trump was banging or any marriage infidelity before he was elected.

and that is fine. I think many people would agree with you there.
Are you ok with hush money payment from his attorney just before the election? Was that payment intended to influence the outcome of the election?
If so, there are federal campaign laws that were violated.

If you feel the AR/15 has no place, why don’t you start a petition and be the first to sign, saying that he will never, ever purchase such a weapon? You sit in your bubble expressing these absolutes and I’m pretty sure that you haven’t spoken or listened to many if any gun owners.

I was never really passionate about this issue and tended to fall on the side that if we take guns from the good guys, only bad guys have guns.
My views have changed over the last few years and I have been involved in groups aiming to reduce gun violence. I have a friend who organizes concealed carry classes outside Chicago, another friend who owns an arsenal and many other friends who own guns. My impressions from them are that they want their guns for their personal protection... but the AR-15 style weapons to their own admission are just basically toys. They want them cause they are fun.

By the way, Trump is meeting with parents teachers and students today for a listening session. Any opinion on that?Would be kind of ironic if he ends up leading meaningful legislation on this when his predecessors over the past 20 years accomplished virtually nothing.

Like I said, something "feels" different this time for me and I was wondering if others felt the same. I would be thrilled if Trump were able to produce some type of meaningful legislation which could help reduce gun violence and I think he is in a unique position to actually do something because his base of voters would be more inclined to accept the same gun law if Trump signed it as opposed to a democrat. The only thing Trump has done on guns to date is removing a rule from Obama trying to make it harder for people with mental health issues to get a gun... So while I am hopeful that Trump himself would want to do the right thing on guns, I am also pessimistic that the NRA is a very powerful voice with Trump.

Redistricting in Pennsylvania? Well, I still live in New Jersey and haven’t you learned already from Trump. Politics is a swamp. It just smells a little different from state to state.

My mistake. Must be someone else.
My impression over PA was that the GOP went way overboard with gerrymandering in 2010 and the new map looked to reverse that.
Wasn't sure if it went from a heavy balance from the right to the left or from the right towards the center.

 

[HALL85]

Well my "opinion" is that you constantly overreact to all things Trump...might be passive-aggressive on your part or you just scare easy. The Russian meddling is just another issue IMO that has been over-hyped by the MSM and we should be smarter to know that this stuff has happened before 2016 and by other countries/groups as well. And it's only going to get worse. This shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it continues to be one which annoys me.

I really don't think anything will happen on barring any weapons. I know a lot of legal and responsible gun owners (and spend a good amount of time with them) and there is a myriad of reasons why they own.... for hunting, marksmanship practice, home defense, collecting, etc.. I have shot at several ranges and you will not find a more respectful and courteous group of people. In addition, many would welcome a conversation on rightful gun ownership and limiting certain weapons and keeping them away from those that shouldn't have them. It's politics and the easy thing is to point to the gun and the NRA (and only 7% of gun owners are even members of the NRA). They are not your problem and they would be a great ally to focus on real solutions if they were welcome to the discussion instead of being painted as villains. They get rightfully pissed when a politician that wants nothing more than a vote, aims at them right out of the gate without any request for a respectful discussion.

Once again, I don't care about Trumps penis and who may have received a "gift" to be quiet...two consenting adults, and we have no proof anyway other than a claim by Cohen. To be honest, I have more of a problem with Congress paying off sexual assault victims with your and my money.

 

[shu09]

Gun control sounds easy on paper, but the implementation is fraught with consequences. While I think some of these people the media is exploiting on this issue do have good intentions, there are also some just out there to stir the pot and be divisive.

In theory, I support an assault weapons ban because I don't think there's any need for any citizen to have one. You want a handgun for personal protection and a rifle for hunting? That's fine, have at it. Zero problem with that.

But let's look at how an assault weapons ban would be implemented. How are you going to get people to voluntarily give them up? Do they get refunded for their purchase? If so, who pays for that? I believe many would give them up, but there will absolutely be some who won't. That's a problem and can lead to violence between law enforcement and citizens, the exact scenario the second amendment was designed to prevent.

I've never handled a gun in my life. I have no desire to do so or to own one. But for better or worse, guns are part of this country's culture and the right to ownership is enshrined in the constitution. Changing this culture is not going to happen overnight, it is going to take decades. There are going to be more tragedies. People point to Britain, Australia, etc as having no mass shootings due to gun control. The fundamental point these people miss is that the right to bear arms is NOT in the constitution of those nations. It is not part of their cultural fabric. That's what needs to change here if gun control advocates are going to get their nirvana of extremely low gun violence and it's not going to happen right away.

 

[Pirata]

There is zero reason to own an AR-15 (or similar type of gun) other than they are fun.

That is an example if you stating absolutes.

It was that statement that kept me away from responding because it obviously isn't going to be a discussion when you lead off of something like that.

What's comical is that you base that on the opinion of one person who calls it a toy and you yourself have absolutely no experience with guns let alone an AR-15.

There are many valid reasons to own an AR-15, however they should not be owned by teenage mental cases on pyschotropic drugs with zero training.

If people are truly interested in stopping mass homicides they need address multiple facets. Singling out one will only result in the usual political bullshit.

 

[Merge]

Well my "opinion" is that you constantly overreact to all things Trump

Call me crazy... but I am willing to bet this board would have a thread with a significant number of posts had Obama paid off a porn star that he slept with.
Your opinion is that I over react. My opinion is that you under react.

This shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it continues to be one which annoys me.

It wouldn't be a partisan issue if everyone was on board with acknowledging what occurred and had a plan for steps we will take to try and mitigate the problem in the future. Again... My fear is that Russia has dirt on Trump. The fact that he takes Putin's word over our IC is incredibly troubling to me.

. In addition, many would welcome a conversation on rightful gun ownership and limiting certain weapons and keeping them away from those that shouldn't have them.

I agree with that.
In all honesty though. Why has nothing been done to date on guns though? The far majority of gun owners support some basic regulations that would make it more difficult for bad people to buy guns. In my opinion it is because of the power the NRA yields.

 

[Merge]

In theory, I support an assault weapons ban because I don't think there's any need for any citizen to have one. You want a handgun for personal protection and a rifle for hunting? That's fine, have at it. Zero problem with that.

That's basically where I'm at.

That's what needs to change here if gun control advocates are going to get their nirvana of extremely low gun violence and it's not going to happen right away.

I agree with you. I don't have all of the answers.
I'm honestly not sure what it would look like, but it is worth researching at least.

 

[Merge]

That is an example if you stating absolutes.

It's my opinion... just like all of my posts are my opinion.

It was that statement that kept me away from responding because it obviously isn't going to be a discussion when you lead off of something like that.

Why? My opinion is that no one needs to own an AR-15.
If you disagree, why not explain your position?

What's comical is that you base that on the opinion of one person who calls it a toy and you yourself have absolutely no experience with guns let alone an AR-15.

I also don't have experience with nuclear weapons.
I don't think I should have the ability own a nuclear weapon.
Does my lack of experience prevent me from having an opinion?

There are many valid reasons to own an AR-15

I'll concede on self defense for now... but outside of that and "fun" - what are the valid reasons?

If people are truly interested in stopping mass homicides they need address multiple facets

I think everyone would agree with that.

 

[HALL85]

Call me crazy... but I am willing to bet this board would have a thread with a significant number of posts had Obama paid off a porn star that he slept with.
Your opinion is that I over react. My opinion is that you under react.



It wouldn't be a partisan issue if everyone was on board with acknowledging what occurred and had a plan for steps we will take to try and mitigate the problem in the future. Again... My fear is that Russia has dirt on Trump. The fact that he takes Putin's word over our IC is incredibly troubling to me.




I agree with that.
In all honesty though. Why has nothing been done to date on guns though? The far majority of gun owners support some basic regulations that would make it more difficult for bad people to buy guns. In my opinion it is because of the power the NRA yields.

Maybe because you continue to look at it at a singular issue “guns”. It’s bigger than that. Mental health, penalties, loopholes, backgrounds ..... if you continue to make it about one gun and one issue don’t expect to have other people join you at the table to solve it.

 

[HALL85]

That is an example if you stating absolutes.

It was that statement that kept me away from responding because it obviously isn't going to be a discussion when you lead off of something like that.

What's comical is that you base that on the opinion of one person who calls it a toy and you yourself have absolutely no experience with guns let alone an AR-15.

There are many valid reasons to own an AR-15, however they should not be owned by teenage mental cases on pyschotropic drugs with zero training.

If people are truly interested in stopping mass homicides they need address multiple facets. Singling out one will only result in the usual political bullshit.

Merge prefers to swim in political bullshit rather than discuss ways to prevent these tragedies from occurring.

 

[Merge]

Maybe because you continue to look at it at a singular issue “guns”. It’s bigger than that. Mental health, penalties, loopholes, backgrounds ..... if you continue to make it about one gun and one issue don’t expect to have other people join you at the table to solve it.

Sigh... When I say that I hope this time is different... I am not saying I hope we ban guns. I am saying I hope we can find some meaningful legislation to help prevent these types of killings.

I haven't made this about one gun and one issue. Here is a post from me in 2015 on this board.
What has changed for me is my opinion on the AR-15.

I do agree with most of that other than the black market. We obviously can't get rid of it but we can try to limit it.

I am not in favor measures that would ban guns I do believe we should have background checks, licenses, and gun registration and MASSIVE penalties for when someone is unlicensed and carrying an unregistered firearm and bigger penalties for crimes committed with a gun.

No law abiding gun owner would be harmed in any way.

 

[HALL85]

Sigh... When I say that I hope this time is different... I am not saying I hope we ban guns. I am saying I hope we can find some meaningful legislation to help prevent these types of killings.

I haven't made this about one gun and one issue. Here is a post from me in 2015 on this board.
What has changed for me is my opinion on the AR-15.

OK, fine. But the reason why this never gets anywhere is because you don’t see anyone in a leadership position addressing the issue holistically.

 

[Pirata]

1. There needs to be intelligent restrictions imposed on purchasing and owning semi-automatic rifles.

2. The above of restrictions in and of themselves will not stop Mass homicides with rifles. Protocols need to be established that will enable law enforcement to act on other factors combined with the above to remove the weapon from the owner and to prevent anyone from initially obtaining one.

3. Despite all this there will always be a way for the wrong people to obtain such weapons. It is my understanding that Cruz obtained the weapon illegally.

3. You need to loosen the constraints on Mental Health and other related medical information that is a factor. One of the sectors I serve is Criminal intelligence gathering at the local and federal level. We abide by the laws of the land regarding what were allowed to collect on individuals. The laws overly constrain law enforcement

4. Schools need to be retrofitted with security mechanisms such as the ability to lock classrooms and corridors to prevent free movement of a bad actor once an event occurs.

5. The perimeters of the schools need to be secured and there must be positive identification required in order to enter. Care must be taken that this entry point is at a distance far enough to allow action to be taken if needed without jeopardizing those inside the building. The presence of such a mechanism must be such that it is not intimidating or otherwise distracting to the educational environment. We need to get to a point that is accepted as a natural and proper way to enter a school building. A hard fact that everyone continues to ignore is that all these shootings have taken place in gun-free zones. It wasn't too many years ago that we were able to walk into an airport and get on an airplane. Fast forward to today and we are all quite used to taking your shoes off removing our belts and going through metal detectors, full body scans, and having positive photo ID by an armed officer. If you recall when we implemented the body scanning we had about six monthd of talk and debate about how TSA was able to see the size of our penis. We eventually get over it.

Beyond semi-automatic weapons and pistols we also need to look at other things that can cause harm such as Vehicles bombs, chemicals and the like.

6. Schools should have adequately armed professionals on site and ready. Their presence must be such that it does not interfere with the environment of a student learning and living. Students need to be educated on why such measures are being taken so that they are comfortable that the people that are there and have these weapons are there for their protection. They should be comfortable with that protection as opposed to being afraid of it. My father strapped a weapon to his side every day since my earliest memory. He was an NYPD Detective. At an early age I was taught great respect for weapons and have never been afraid of them. As little as 2 hours ago I attended a press briefing by our district attorney. There were 20 uniformed officers in the room all with loaded semi-automatic pistols. It was second nature to me.

7. As part of the intelligence gathering efforts that I am involved in on gang activity I can assure you that we have the ability to gather all kinds of intelligence and apply it to algorithms to assess the potential threat of individuals. There was enough intelligence available on Cruz that he could have easily been identified as a threat. That information has to be combined with protocols for law enforcement to act on. The protocols can be designed such that they support our individual rights and privacy. Under present conditions had we had that information available we would not have been able to act on it. There's a lot of talk about the FBI field office not be notified about Cruz. Even if they had been notified there would have been no mechanism for them to do anything about it. That needs to change but it will be a delicate thing to change so that we do not turn into a police state.

I would look for all the above to be further discussed and it could be tweaked as needed. The general gist of what I have written is a foundation for what needs to be done in order to solve this. You could turn any one of the points I wrote above into a political football and that is likely what will happen. You will be hard-pressed to find any legitimate security professional to argue against anything that I've written above as in general being reasonable. There are plenty of gotchas and hurdles to implementing it but we need to make progress in that direction.

The current youth protest movement in Florida has caught my attention. It is sad but true that the adults and our leaders have let our children down. This failure has had tragic consequences. Every adult in this country should feel some responsibility for allowing this to happen.

To pin this on one individual i.e. Trump, Pelosi, or one organization, I.e. the FBI is luudicrous, abhorrent and irresponsible.

Our collective leadership needs to get their heads out of their asses and do something about this. The time for making this a political issue is over.

 

[Pirata]

Addendum.

1. Classify all violent video games in the same category as child pornography. Make it illegal to produce, own, or view.

2. Clamp down on Hollywood and the violence they portray in film.

 

[Pirata]

I also don't have experience with nuclear weapons.
I don't think I should have the ability own a nuclear weapon.
Does my lack of experience prevent me from having an opinion?

Sorry, but that is an off the charts ridiculous analogy. Defies logic.

 

[Pirata]

Why? My opinion is that no one needs to own an AR-15.
If you disagree, why not explain your position?

1. You own a boat and make the trip from Miami to the Bahamas. You can't call 911 when you are in international waters. Coast Guard won't get there is time.

2. You live on a farm 10 miles from Allentown and a 4 drunk New York hunters level their weapons at you at 200 yards while your two kids are standing next to you. (Happened to my friend). Shotguns and pistols are ineffective at that range and a single action bolt puts you at a bit of disadvantage. It took the state police 10 minutes to arrive. Most people can travel 200 yards within 10 minutes. He was lucky that day. It won't happen again. He is better prepared now.

3. You live on a 10 acre parcel with a 600 foot driveway. The power grid goes out and the assholes decide to go shopping at your house. Better to hold them off at a distance than to invite them in for coffee.

An AR-15 is like a life raft or a back up generator. You hope you never have to use it but it is prudent to have one when you need it.

Everyone likes to refer to them as assault weapons. An Army spend very little time assaulting. The majority of their time is spent in a defensive posture. It would be more accurate to call it a Defense Rifle. Hollywood and arm chair liberals love to call it an Assault Rifle or a War Machine yet none of them have a clue of what the typical use of the weapon is used for.

Your idiot friend who refers to it as a Toy tells me he has no respect for the weapon. Anyone who views it as a Toy should not be allowed near one.

You ought to go to gun range and buy an hour of range time and rent a pistol and fire it. It would cost you about $75. You will quickly learn respect for weapons and how responsible people handle them. It will open your eyes. We don't joke around. We don't play.

 

[Merge]

Addendum.

1. Classify all violent video games in the same category as child pornography. Make it illegal to produce, own, or view.

2. Clamp down on Hollywood and the violence they portray in film.

Hope you're kidding.
Other countries have the same video games and movies.... We are the ones with the murders.
What is different here?

 

[Merge]

Sorry, but that is an off the charts ridiculous analogy. Defies logic.

It was an exaggeration to make the point.
How about a machine gun? A bomb? A tank?
I think you get the point... Me having never operated any of those things doesn't mean I can't express an opinion on if people should be allowed to own them.

 

[HALL85]

It was an exaggeration to make the point.
How about a machine gun? A bomb? A tank?
I think you get the point... Me having never operated any of those things doesn't mean I can't express an opinion on if people should be allowed to own them.

Yes you can certainly express an opinion, but it’s an uniformed opinion.

 

[Merge]

An AR-15 is like a life raft or a back up generator. You hope you never have to use it but it is prudent to have one when you need it.

I get you point here... but lets just take it a step further.
In all of those scenarios, would those people be better defended with a fully automatic machine gun that is currently not legal to own?

A line has been drawn about what guns are legal and how you can choose to protect yourself.

My question, after too many mass murders is... is that line in the right spot?

 

[Merge]

Yes you can certainly express an opinion, but it’s an uniformed opinion.

That's just dumb. We talk about all sorts of issues here. I don't believe you are a politicians or an economist. Should I disqualify your opinions when you talk about something you don't have experience in?

Like I said. We have some guns which we have deemed to be illegal.
A certain type of legal gun keeps being used in mass murders.

I'll can go to a gun range next week. That will not change me questioning if people should have access to the guns that are being used as mass murder weapons.

 

[HALL85]

That's just dumb. We talk about all sorts of issues here. I don't believe you are a politicians or an economist. Should I disqualify your opinions when you talk about something you don't have experience in?

Like I said. We have some guns which we have deemed to be illegal.
A certain type of legal gun keeps being used in mass murders.

I'll can go to a gun range next week. That will not change me questioning if people should have access to the guns that are being used as mass murder weapons.

When you make absolute statements about things you know very little about, that's uninformed and dumb.

 

[Merge]

When you make absolute statements about things you know very little about, that's uninformed and dumb.

You're being absurdly stubborn.

Should you be allowed to keep a nuclear weapon in your home?
I guess none of us can possibly opine on that because we are all uninformed and dumb about housing nuclear weapons.

 

[Pirata]

In all of those scenarios, would those people be better defended with a fully automatic machine gun that is currently not legal to own?

Taking this outside of what can be legally owned is pointless. If I want to secure a position and have access to a full arsenal, I would deploy such things as concertina wire, mines, TOW, MAW, and LAW missiles, a 50 Cal, a 7.62mm, have pre-coordinated mortar and artillery support; perhaps throw in a A10 Wharthog, some Drones, and an Abrams tank on call.

If we get back to reality and what is legal, an AR-15 provides functionality that is useful and different from other weapons such a shotgun or a pistol.

Having said all that, what the hell is your point???

 

[Pirata]

A line has been drawn about what guns are legal and how you can choose to protect yourself.

My question, after too many mass murders is... is that line in the right spot?

Why are you focused on guns?

McVeigh did a pretty good job in Oklahoma with a Budget rental truck and ammonium nitrate.

 

[Pirata]

Should you be allowed to keep a nuclear weapon in your home?
I guess none of us can possibly opine on that because we are all uninformed and dumb about housing nuclear weapons.

You can opine on anything. Can you at least accept that an opinion by someone on a subject they know little about should not be considered in the same light as someone with years of experience in the matter. This is especially true when the uninformed opiner makes somewhat ridiculous statements.

Having said all this, you are arguing a nuance based on adopting a political position on a specific weapon. The responsible issue to be discussed is how best to protect our children. If you rank order the things that will have the highest impact on that, making AR-15's illegal is IMHO low on the list. I think there should be tighter controls on the AR but that alone will do squat without the other measures I laid out. You seem to ignore the gestalt of what I wrote.

You seem to like to pick out a detail you don't agree with and argue that.

Would you consider big picture for a change?

 

[Pirata]

While you are waiting for our congress to enact more gun control, given the gun in the video below following is legal to own, would you consider it wise to implement other security measure at t high school rather than wait for the laws to change.

After you view the video below, Google Saiga-12 and rethink the question above.

 

[Merge]

You seem to like to pick out a detail you don't agree with and argue that.

To be fair though, I started this thread with about 15 words on gun control - This entire thread is a couple people nitpicking about my post.

Would you consider big picture for a change?

I posted a few words about one gun due to my frustrations that nothing ever changes regarding gun control. It's funny that shu09 basically said the same thing I did regarding ownership of the types of weapons used in these school shootings. Yet you took no issue with him. Seeing my name next to the post triggers you.

When guns were discussed on this board previously, my comments were more broad and bigger picture.

I think we agree on most items that you listed. I'm in favor of any measure that gets all guns away from individuals which pose a risk. That includes background checks, registrations, regulations over party sales etc. The NRA has spent millions of dollars to prevent any of that from happening.

 

[Merge]

Actually @Pirata i want to apologize.

I probably responded too emotionally here. I don’t get gun culture, and I went overboard.

I have a 3 and 5 year old and it saddens me that they will grow up in schools preparing for mass shootings.

I realize my post was attacking something you believe in and therefore interpreted as an attack on you, and it was honestly not my intention. I don’t know what the answers are re guns, and I am a little cynical that we will again do nothing... but I am sorry that I turned this into another argument.

All I honestly wanted to know was if you guys felt this one felt differently to you, where we could actually see some kind of gun control to help prevent these shootings. (Background checks, etc)

 

[HALL85]

Still too early to tell if this tragic event will catalyze any change. I thought Sandy Hook would do that, but history tells us our politicians especially over the past two decades don’t have a very good track record of accomplishment.

Real activism is the only thing that will create change. And that’s not keyboard activism… You just can’t post a meme, or outrage on your Facebook account and feel you’ve done your part if you feel that strongly about it. Nor a clever soundbite from a politician or a staged MSM Town-hall.

I do feel bad about the children, including yours. On the one hand, they are fortunate to be growing up in this time of technology evolution, but they also are having to deal with issues we never really did. That’s life. I think we all remember growing up when airport security was about 30 second process. Terrorism and 9/11 changed all that.

That shouldn’t be an exercise in doing something for the sake of doing something. We can address this issue holistically if all stakeholders actually sat down at the same table and worked through it. Let me know when that happens because that’s when it will feel differently to me.

 

[Pirata]

Merge,

I took no umbrage from your post. No need to apologize.
(I also see Han Solo liked it. lol.)

I will respond to some of the things you wrote.

Shu09 was somewhat similar. Perhaps I parse words too much but the subtle difference of the two statements was meaningful to me. I know you have stated that it is your opinion, but as it is written it comes across as you stating an absolute fact.

"There is zero reason to own an AR-15 (or similar type of gun) other than they are fun." (Merge)

and

'I support an assault weapons ban because I don't think there's any need for any citizen to have one." (Shu09)

You made a valid point that as posters we tend to focus less on where we agree and more on where we disagree. You are good at citing "general agreement". I tend to pick at the what I consider misstatements and then respond to them. I try to respond with measure but sometimes I too get a little snarky. Perhaps I just enjoy the joust.

I actually am not into "gun culture". If you are familiar with the term "plinking", other than as a kid with BB gun, I don't do it and kinda think that the adults that do it look a little silly. there are alot of warrior wannabees who think they are hot shit because they buy a bad ass gun. I think they are idiots. As I said before, guns are not toys. If you buy gun, you take on tremendous responsibility to learn how to store it, use it,maintain it, transport it.

I wasn't sure what you mean by "something I believe in". I most believe in that we are not protecting our kids. We have security at the Rock, at office buildings, at airports, etc. Why can't we protect our kids? BTW, I am sickened by the possibility that the armed guard in Florida was a coward.

I have a 3 and 5 year old and it saddens me that they will grow up in schools preparing for mass shootings.

I too feel sad for the kids and parents in that regard. I hope to be a grand parent in the next few years and worry about that. Then again, I grew up ducking under my desk to prepare for a nuclear attack. You can watch those drills on YouTube. I remember one night as very young kid sleeping in the basement with my Mom and siblings. We were doing some kind of drill relative to a nuclear attack. I recall being little scared but not that scared. Think about what kids in Israel or Syria, etc go through. We are still kinda sheltered in our existence.

By chance, I had dinner last night with a teacher. She has been teaching for 25 years or so. Taught my daughter in grade school. We discussed the shootings. She is only one data point.

She made some comments that she was upset that she had to think about the possibility of laying down her life to protect the kids. She felt she wouldn't hesitate to do it and would do anything to protect her kids. She just felt bad that she had to have the thoughts about it. Rightly so. Those thoughts are scary if you are the one facing that potentially reality.

She also stated that she would carry a gun in a heartbeat. She does not own a gun now but said if they allowed her to carry she would get training. In short, she said she would rather go down fighting than helpless.

My quick acid test has shown that the MSM will not put people like her on TV. So far, all I have seen are teachers who would not carry and think that a gun in the classroom would frighten the children. My point is that the political bullshit will hinder this discussion.

At the moment, I would prefer to see other solutions implemented ahead of arming teachers. However if arming teachers becomes a reality, we don't necessarily need (and I would not recommend) teachers wearing a holster with an exposed loaded pistol. You could easily have a gun safe integrated into the desk or mounted in the wall with bio-metric a lock . The children would never have to know that a weapon was in the classroom. The process would be simple. Hardened classroom door gets locked centrally or by a panic button(s) accessed in the classroom or on the person. Kids are sheltered in a hardened closet with lights, etc. Teacher is sheltered by a separated defensive position outside the closet. The defensive position would creatively constructed to be unobtrusive. If you ever toured the Greenbrier, You get to see the 16 inch thick steel blast door to the bunker. It is cleverly concealed with floral wallpaper. If we can protect the congress, we can protect the kids.

All of us have have ridden on planes and have been unaware for the armed Sky Marshall on the flight.

I think if the hardened doors and tighter control with entry to the school were in place, we would not need to arm teachers. If we did arm them, it should be viewed as the last line of defense as opposed to the primary deterrent. The first rule of defense is to stop the threat as faraway as possible. A shooter should never be allowed to get near a school.

I have focused on the physical defense of the school because that is the most immediate and feasible thing to do. To continue to allow our kids to be sitting ducks while the politicans bicker is unconscionable.

I think we also need gun laws changed and enforcement of those laws. It is way too easy for nut jobs and idiots to acquire guns, However, more laws will not alone solve it but that fact should not prevent the additional gun laws. Then again, if with either side is unwilling to compromise, then we will back to nothing getting done. I believe the right guns laws will prevent SOME of the shootings but not all. We need to free up the mental health records. I'd like to see voluntary release of medical records to the school by all parents/students. Again, that won't stop ALL shooting but would catch some.

I agree with Merge that this time may be different but also agree with Hall85 that I'll believe it when I see it.

I will be sickened if this is just another Trump vs Schumer vs Pelosi vs MSM battle. I hope we can set our differences aside and safeguard or kids. Insane that ithas come to this.

Having said all this, I believe we must recognize that evil will continue to exist. Evil will find away inflict harm. After we fix the school shooting,we will sadly move on to the next creative way to kill lots of people.

 

[Pirata]

As I thought about more, I thought I would post one of many videos on the "Duck and Cover" Drill.

One could argue whether we were psychologically damaged by having done this as a kid (Lord knows my wife would, lol).

 

[cernjSHU]

The Second Amendment is one of the Amendments that not only is oddly worded it really has been interpreted out of context in which the Amendment was written. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

During the writing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, there was no standing army. Thus, State militias were necessary for the protection of the State. The right to bear arms was really for the militias. The Founding Fathers has an inherent distrust of Standing Armies. This interpretation was the law until Supreme Court 5-4 decision in Heller in 2008 which gave the right to individuals. This is a tentative balance that could easily swing back to the militia interpretation of the Second Amendment based up who is on the Court. Clearly, even our legal scholars have a tremendous problem interpreting this issue.

While I side with the original interpretation, let's stick to what we have with the Heller decision. The gun lobby proclaims the Second Amendment with an absolute right to bear any type of firearm without exception or restriction. However, even the First Amendment which is clearly worded is not an absolute right and that there are limitations of free speech, i.e. You can't shout fire in a crowded theater.

There is no question that assault weapons can and should be banned. There is no purpose except to kill numerous amounts of people. The AR-15 is really an M-16, except it is semi-auto instead of auto. The right of the people do not and should not include this weapon. If the people have the right to bear arms, it is for self-defense of the home and hunting. Those are the type of weapons that should be limited for individual ownership.

Moreover, there must be a tracking and registration of all firearms. A federal system or database should track a weapon from manufacturer to the buyer of that firearm and track the subsequent transfer of that weapon. Failure to register or failure to register a transfer should be criminalized. We need a tracking system so guns do not disappear and fall into the wrong hands.

Also, there must be a background check for anyone who wants to purchase a firearm. I have no idea why this is even an issue. No more gun show sales, or person to person sales that skirt around any of these requirements. This preserves gun ownership and restricts gun ownership to those who rightfully register to purchase and use firearms.

Will all of this prevent people from being killed? No. But it should help reduce the amount of people being killed in the US.

 

[Pirata]

Paragraphs 1-3, are a no brainer. Yes. Paragraphs 5-7, pretty much agree.

You are going to have a harder time with numero 4 and other than making the anti-gun folks happy, it will have little to no impact on school safety.

BTW the way the AR-15 is the civilian designation of the weapon. The M-16 is the number the Army put on it for their purposes. There are other versions. M4, etc. The M-16 has a selector switch/lever that lets you operate it in the semi or full automatic mode. Depending on the situation, it is more lethal in the semi-automatic mode.

Let's for arguments sake say you get rid of the AR-15. Take a look at Browning BAR and similar guns. It will be years and likely never that those go away. 7 round easy load clip, semi automatic. My point being is that there are plenty of other weapons that will remain legal and can do a lot of harm.

Extended effort on Paragraph 4 has the potential to go nowhere, cause media sensational fights and bickering and detract from progress on 1-3, 5-7.

I remain firm that gun control by itself will not protect our children. I will also restate that we should not let that fact get in the way of enacting gun control.

 

[Pirata]

I'm just now listening to the Australian prime minister speak about their gun control.

The guy is extremely articulate and diplomatic.

 

[Pirata]

I previously posted that I was under the impression that Cruz obtained his weapon illegally.

That was incorrect.

If you read this link you will see a few simple measures that could and should have been in place to prevent him from obtaining that weapon.

http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-shooter-nikolas-cruz-bought-ar-15-legally-2018-2

These are examples of no-brainer gun-control that we must implement.

 

[Merge]

fwiw - Someone added me to an NRA e-mail list years ago and I've never removed myself since it is interesting to see how they talk to their members.

This is why I hate the NRA. This group prevents anything from happening. Just received this e-mail. Bold emphasis is theirs.


"In the wake of an atrocious act of premeditated murder, an organized effort to bully legislators into passing legislation to hijack your Second Amendment rights is underway.


The gun control faction is out in full force, determined to use the senseless murder of the students and adults at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School as an excuse to promote their gun ban agenda.


Numerous gun control proposals that have been mentioned include:


1.) Waiting periods on long guns
2.) Raising age limits on the purchase of long guns
3.) Age limits on possession of semi-automatic rifles
4.) Ban of so-called “assault weapons”
5.) Ban of “bump-stocks”
6.) Removing the exemption for concealed weapons license holders from the existing waiting period on handguns

Please email or call your legislators IMMEDIATELY and ask them to focus on fixing our broken mental health system and improving school security, not punishing law-abiding gun owners because of the act of a deranged criminal.

Please EMAIL the following members of the Legislature IMMEDIATELY and tell them NO GUN CONTROL. Urge them to provide armed security in schools and tighten mental health laws to keep guns out of the hands of those who are a danger to themselves or others.

IN THE SUBJECT LINE PUT: GUN CONTROL Won’t Protect our Children"