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Will There Be Changes On Willard's Staff?

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Originally posted by jimmyd36:
Hall28 what's misguided?

-Have we not had 5 coaches in 16 years?
-Are we not view as an "unstable" if not the most unstable head coaching job in the Big East?
-Isn't buying a coach out with a $1million buyout, with a year left on his contract, when he landed a top 10 recruiting class, lost his best player to injury midseason, and had the team in the top 20 going to be viewed by SHU as another desperate attempt to "jump start" the program? Will recruits, parents, coaches, etc really view this as a smart move? Will people outside the SHU boosters really see this as anything more than another Seton Hall blowout?

Maybe my business analogy is tough for some people to wrap their head around but I'm not some nut job who graduated from Seton Hall and spent the last 5 years living at home w my parents. I'm taking a step back and saying -is the damage to the school better or for worse if Willard remains w the program. I come to the conclusion it's better for everyone if he gets the 6th year.
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I like your business analogies and like your posts even though we disagree.

Just a few questions/thoughts:

- If he's not the right guy for the job (and his record is worse than poor), how does giving him one more year in hopes that the program does a complete 180 (could happen but aren't the chances greater for another underperforming year? Want to run some Monte Carlo simulations on that?) show any stability? The risk is it shows more stupidity that won't help the next search.

- The buyout sounds like it's a lot more than $1 million, which makes it impossible to let him go now, so somebody (and Lyons had to have been involved) really did a disservice to Seton Hall, acted more in a fiduciary role for Willard than they did for Seton Hall, no?

- Everybody knows how he got the top 15 recruiting class, no coaching prospect is going to pay that any mind nor does letting a coach go who had a few weeks in the Top 25 be viewed as.another desperate attempt to "jump start" the program.

- Aren't there risks involved with keeping him for a 6th year you haven't harped on?
 
Jimmy
It's not a reach if the buyout provision extends beyond year six as has been suggested by some of our better posters on this Board and while it's not as large as if he were let go this year it still is very substantial. I would also note most coach contract buyout provisions have a declining step-ladder buyout schedule as was discussed with the Tom Crean / Indiana contract .
 
This is a great thread. Jimmyd36's views are really insightful. I think for Lyons to do his job right he needs to do it for the long term and Jimmyd36 is right, Lyons didn't inherit a clean slate in any way, shape or form. I have always been more focused on the Gonzo mess, but there was a lot more "revolving door" mess than that, it's true that we have made it easy for other institutions to compete against us by pointing out what a mess we are. I think Willard is a bad coach, period. But I had not thought before that there is something to be said for keeping him just because it shows we have some stability and honor our contracts...over the long term that should make it easier to bring in new talent. Lyons' most important job is to get us a new coach who is a great coach, and if it means we have to wait an extra year that will be frustrating as hell, but if we end up with a better coach by waiting a year than we would have gotten by replacing Willard now, I guess we need to just grin and bear it. Or just bear it, 'cause it's sure hard to grin.
 
+1 to SPK145 comments. We need to deal with the here and now and not the past mistakes
 
I know nothing about contracts. My fiancé is going to kill me if I spend one more minute on this board on a Saturday lol. But when I look at this "big picture" ie, buyout, history of the program, current players, injuries, headaches, coach, and AD the bottom line is I can commit to this for one more year and my donation level won't be impacted. Come the end of next season, when it comes time for me to write what is a ton of money for 4 seats I promise you it's not going to be a rubber stamp. I just hope people remember there are a lot of other student athletes outside a basketball team that need our support. Our donations do a lot of good and can really shape the future. Seriously last post today - finance is sharpening knives. Go Pirates!
 
It is just asinine that we're discussing a prohibitive buyout on a below .500 coach that has never made an NCAA Tournament.
 
JIMMY Who the hell are you referring to some fans as some nut job living in their parents basement for 5 years. That's real classy of you. You seem to like to talk about you being a top executive and al that you accomplished. You might be related to Willard for al I know.He called a lot of the fanbase cowards a few years ago according to some here on the site. I never attack anyone on here . just want the program improved. Anyone who thinks another year of Willard will magically turn this around well I highly doubt it. YOUR executive searches and college basketball recruiting are totally different. For you to look at our record and want him for another year is ridiculous.
 
He is one of the many arrogant big donors on this board whom feel their opinions are more valuable than others. Another to add to ignore.
 
This board is like crack at times. Fiancé thinks I'm in the garage getting a wrench so must be quick. First I am never arrogant but I understand I can, at times, comes across as a douche since I really think our alumni need to step up to help our student athletes. The "donor" posts can seem douchy so I'm a self proclaimed douche (if halldan wants to change my name to "jimmydouche" I'm good with that if it means I can still keep telling you guys you don't donate enough).

I was a little over the top in a post the other day when I came down on the people who put in a few hundreds bucks and are screaming to buyout the coach, when I personally don't want my donations to go towards that. So I would like to apologize. Also I find some comfort when I am on a message board to understand the perspective and background of the person I am hearing from and sometimes think "this seems like a great idea but what if I'm agreeing with a guy who lives above his parents garage and is 27?". I want to follow the cool kids at school who are smarter than me. That being said that is not aimed at anyone on this board in particular just the guys living above their parents garage at 27, wanting to spend my "modest" donation on a buyout. My logic there is because you guys probably don't even spend your money on groceries so don't spend my donation on a buyout!

Seriously donate more to another sport it's not all about basketball!!!
 
Great posts Jimmyd,

I agree wholeheartedly. Firing Willard would do more harm than good as you post.

What's one more year; can't hurt since I've been being frustrated buy our teams (with a few exceptions) for decades now.

We should start now though checking into coaches if Willard bombs next year. Take our time, and not grab the first guy we can get. It won't be easy.
 
You make a lot assumptions about what people give or don't give and assume it's a couple of hundred dollars. Why don't you stick to basketball or how successful you are and stop assuming we all live above our mom's garage.

Now an assumption from me. I would assume you were in the Seton Hall box when the annual fund and Pirate Blue thanked their donors. I didn't hear many positives supporting our coach. Granted I don't know who from this board was there, but the donors weren't the same ones that you claim don't want Willard fired.

The BR and Dr. Esteban will make this decision soon and I'm sure Dan is correct that Willard will not be fired, but not because they think he will turn it around, but rather they don't want to pay him.
 
Interesting analogy and debate. But unfortunately it's all for nothing.

The single critical issue here isn't stability. The single critical item is the buyout.

Does anyone here doubt that if the buyout were zero, Willard would still be Seton Hall's coach after next week's Big East tournament?
 
Jerry, I had already put jimmyd on ignore before I read your post. I agree with you about the patronizing tone of his posts. The ignore button is a handy little tool..
 
ABBO71. im glad you have that opinion and everyone has their opinion. That's what makes this board honestly very important because it gives the chance for all fans to voice their opinions no matter what they are. Its great to have a civil debate because without question we all want what is best for the program. SOME want Willard for another year some don't. Allof this messaging does show we all have a lot of passion towards the program and that's a great thing. My poinrt about Willard is that in college basketball 5 years is enough especially in year 4 and 5 when we are suppose to be really on the upswing are record and play indicates we are headed in the opposite direction. I know last year and this year we I have some injuries but that's where recruiting really comes into play. Maybe if the recruiting was stronger not last year but since day 1 of Willards tenure we would have the depth to win more games. Depth is critical to any team. Some teams such as the Temple teams under John Chaney seeme to have a constant 7 man rotation. But when all is said and done we need depth. With me and a lot of fans our record speaks for itself. This weekend I received a ton of calls and emails fro friends who have never been as discourged as this season comes to an end and the 5 years of Willard. From what I have rea somehere else and I don't want to say where because I don't want to break any unwritten rule but it is entirely possible that the way Willards was constructed he could be here 2 more years. If someone knows what I a referring to please explain. Finally we are all in this boat together. Oh one last thing I think you had mentioned that if we kept Willard then the AD would have a better idea who to bring in. Just like a GM in PRO sports an AD who is on the ball knows even before he takes a new job who the better candidates may be. no question about that. To Jimmy please be a little kiner to the fans. we are all on the same side. Pirate 64 sorry about no paragraphs. MY GOD just re read this and sorry about some of the spelling.
 
Yeah. Just recently started using it. I love it ;). The good points are offset by the other stuff. Most of the posters are respectable and very knowledgeable. I enjoy the board most of the time. Been a long month for the hall and us fans.
 
Originally posted by NYShoreGuy:
team defense has been incredibly weak during the tenure, the soft zone matchup nonsense just enables other offenses to score easy...there is no edge or physicality on defense and yes you can be physical without fouling and the offense doesn't do much most of the time that reflects on the head coach
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+1. not enough discussion of the nuts & bolts of what our team does out there, and how terrible most of it under these coaches. stuff like THIS above, our chuck & duck offense, our lack of inbounds plays, etc is why we lose, why we don't have faith in KW & why he needs to go asap. the man has no positives that he brings to coaching.
 
I make no assumptions on what you guys give my man.... It's all in the public domain when Pirate Blue posts the donors, look at how small the list of people giving $15K or more (heck $5k or more). It's not all about money btw but it does annoy me (personally) when people are talking about spending a million or whatever it is for a buyout when that's not what it (my donation) was made for. My point in earlier posts were this-- I donate my money to help student athletes. I have no idea why this generates so much anger amonsts some of you being vocal that under no circumstances do I want my donation to go towards a buyout.

You don't want to give money but want to help? Keep in mind if you work at a company encourage your HR department to recruit at Seton Hall. Try and get SHU interns hired where you work. If you hear about an entry level opening email Roberto in the athletic department w the specs and contact info. I also helped the athletic department start a mentoring program so if money isn't your thing email Bryan Felt and offer to be a mentor. Students are hungry to connect with alumni who can help them with internships or full time jobs. There are a ton of nursing students who are athletes so anyone who works in that field they could really use your help.

You guys can find a guy like me annoying, one trying to encourage giving (via a gentle push) and being vocal about wanting his donation to go towards student athletes vs a buyout, but for me it's a ton of money. I'm no millionaire investment banker and the percentage of my income I donate is EXCEPTIONALLY high (I feel like I owe SHU) so rest assured if Willard goes after this year that list of donors will be reduced by one. I think it's important my voice is equally as loud in the public domain as the guys trying to spend my money because I worked hard for it and when I wrote the check, my check, I wanted it to go towards athletics and not a buyout. I'm simply protecting my investment.

Let's all figure a way to get on board for one more year and if you hold your donation that's fine but maybe explore how you can help the student athletes vs just pulling whatever you give.
 
Have to agree with what you say BOBBIESOLO. I know ive written a lot on here today but I do have to add one more thing I just thought of. I can remember how all of us were so excited when the new BIG EAST was formed from the Catholic 7 and also so excited with our alliance with FOX. think many thought ok this is finally our chance to get things turned around. Wilard was going into year 4 a new league a new tv deal etc. Never in my wildest dreams did I think only 2 years later we would be in this position. One of the bottom teams in the league all the Willard talk and I believe a contract that we either cant get out of or just don't want to pay the extension eeven if it means hopefully better long term success. This league is mae for schools like us and if we cant pay on the extension or wont wow what a shame. Being in the Metropolitan area its imperative THE HALL AND ST. JOHNS are successful. And everyday even when they were in the Big East reading about Rutgers . Now im reading about their wrestling team. So we have to become relevant.
 
Not "if" Abbo, "when".

Willard will bomb. While Lyons is busy looking for a new coach with plenty of time to spare, the rest of us should start getting ready for a disappointing season next year with plenty of time to spare. It won't be for a lack of talent, it will be for a lack of coaching, let's get ready for it. We will lose close games, fail to develop our talent, fail to fully utilize our talent, not have the right play drawn up at critical moments... you know, the same stuff Willard has done for 5 years. I am prepared to accept that keeping Willard for another year may be in the best long term interests of the program, but he's a loser, pure and simple. Won't stop me from cheering/hoping/praying that we can find ways to win despite him, but realistically we shouldn't expect it with that guy at the helm.
 
Jimmyl, I don't expect anything. I just hope that SHU MBB will be successful next season.
 
This jimmyd is like our own version of the rick b character (who I 100% LOVED) from the Nova board years ago
 
After 5 years, I find Seton Hall having the worst x and o's coach and recruiting coach in the conf. That's a huge problem.
 
Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
You make a lot assumptions about what people give or don't give and assume it's a couple of hundred dollars. Why don't you stick to basketball or how successful you are and stop assuming we all live above our mom's garage.

Now an assumption from me. I would assume you were in the Seton Hall box when the annual fund and Pirate Blue thanked their donors. I didn't hear many positives supporting our coach. Granted I don't know who from this board was there, but the donors weren't the same ones that you claim don't want Willard fired.

The BR and Dr. Esteban will make this decision soon and I'm sure Dan is correct that Willard will not be fired, but not because they think he will turn it around, but rather they don't want to pay him.
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Have to go with Muggsy here. The school will of course support our coach but know that money will certainly be a major reason why.
 
This has gone off on a tangent, but I agree with SPK, and think that JimmyD has brought an interesting perspective to the board. However, like many of those who get close to the program, including Hank D., they get a little blinded. It's great to buy a spot at the table, but basketball decisions are best left to sports people. The flaw in Jimmy's otherwise very good argument is that he sees a team with potential to turn a corner next year, and I don't. We are a much worse team than in January, and we lose Mobley, and most likely Gibbs, in addition to Sina. We've gotten worse at taking care of the ball, and we are vastly undersized. Without the three above-mentioned, it's going to be a struggle.
 
Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:

We get how successful you are, but there are any # of CEO and CFO's on this board; they just don't spend time talking about themselves.
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HAA
 
Originally posted by Muggsy Blue:
You make a lot assumptions about what people give or don't give and assume it's a couple of hundred dollars. Why don't you stick to basketball or how successful you are and stop assuming we all live above our mom's garage.

Now an assumption from me. I would assume you were in the Seton Hall box when the annual fund and Pirate Blue thanked their donors. I didn't hear many positives supporting our coach. Granted I don't know who from this board was there, but the donors weren't the same ones that you claim don't want Willard fired.

The BR and Dr. Esteban will make this decision soon and I'm sure Dan is correct that Willard will not be fired, but not because they think he will turn it around, but rather they don't want to pay him.
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BTW you did not have to donate much to get that invite, only a hundred or so a season..
 
Whats next Jimmy? Going to brag about having a pool table or BMW? bullied/ridiculed growing up? with the culture at SHU it's strange that you are so insecure
 
Originally posted by SPK145:
Just a few questions/thoughts:

- The buyout sounds like it's a lot more than $1 million, which makes it impossible to let him go now, so somebody (and Lyons had to have been involved) really did a disservice to Seton Hall, acted more in a fiduciary role for Willard than they did for Seton Hall, no?
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You are much too modest. You already told us the buyout years are greater than two and you gave us the base contract price. You know the whole story and it would be much appreciated if you would share it with us.

Incompetence or inexperience may be a reason for the untenable (I love that word) buyout but "acted more in a fiduciary role for Willard than they did for Seton Hall" is a very serious accusation against Lyons. If this came from someone else, I would shrug it off as speculation, but coming from you it has to be considered. Can you please elaborate?
 
Isn't it more important at this point to know if the terms of Willard's contract at the end of next season will put us in the same position we are today that financial considerations will prevent us from making a change once again. If that proves to be a fact then the person or persons who put us in that position should be held accountable . It would be extremely helpful if the unanswered questions about the buyout provisions and the period of time they'll impact whether we can make a change or not could be shared by anyone who has those facts with us.
 
Originally posted by hallgrad80:
Isn't it more important at this point to know if the terms of Willard's contract at the end of next season will put us in the same position we are today that financial considerations will prevent us from making a change once again. If that proves to be a fact then the person or persons who put us in that position should be held accountable . It would be extremely helpful if the unanswered questions about the buyout provisions and the period of time they'll impact whether we can make a change or not could be shared by anyone who has those facts with us.
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I believe Dan answered this question for us in October. The buyout is high for this year but becomes manageable next year. In effect, Willard got two years (this one and next one) to make good things happen. He squandered this year but still has next year.
 
Originally posted by hallgrad80:
Isn't it more important at this point to know if the terms of Willard's contract at the end of next season will put us in the same position we are today that financial considerations will prevent us from making a change once again. If that proves to be a fact then the person or persons who put us in that position should be held accountable . It would be extremely helpful if the unanswered questions about the buyout provisions and the period of time they'll impact whether we can make a change or not could be shared by anyone who has those facts with us.
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Same old story...when there is good news, everyone trips over each other to take credit. But when someone makes a blunder like this contract extension, personal accountability goes out the door. I'd have so much more respect for a leader that stepped up and admitted to a mistake vs. what we see all too often today.
 
Knowknow
There have been conflicting posts that have suggested that the buyout provisions for next year , while not as onerous as this year, still are significant and could affect the decision - making process next year as well. That's why I would hope that someone who has the facts would share them with us.

This post was edited on 3/9 12:30 PM by hallgrad80
 
Originally posted by hallgrad80:
Knowknow
There have been conflicting posts that have suggested that the buyout provisions for next , while not as onerous as this year, still are significant and could affect the decision - making process next year as well. That's why I would hope that someone who has the facts would share them with us.
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If he so chooses, Dan can confirm if my memory of the situation is correct, and he can further confirm if his understanding of the situation remains unchanged since October.

SPK is smearing Lyons or at least someone at the school. Let's assume the buyout truly is untenable but suppose Lyons gave you a sincere and plausible rationale for how we got here. You may still think he is incompetent and should lose his job. That's not what SPK is saying. He is saying Lyons' personal relationship trumped the best interest of the school. This is not incompetence; this is immediate cause for discharge.

It is a strong accusation from someone who over the years has demonstrated solid insider information. It would be beneficial if he clarified his statement.
This post was edited on 3/9 12:42 PM by knowknow456
 
The Trove has updated and informed information. My personal comments will stay there.

Any comments about Lyons being discharged for any reasons are utter nonsense.
 
Originally posted by knowknow456:

Originally posted by hallgrad80:
Knowknow
There have been conflicting posts that have suggested that the buyout provisions for next , while not as onerous as this year, still are significant and could affect the decision - making process next year as well. That's why I would hope that someone who has the facts would share them with us.
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If he so chooses, Dan can confirm if my memory of the situation is correct, and he can further confirm if his understanding of the situation remains unchanged since October.

SPK is smearing Lyons or at least someone at the school. Let's assume the buyout truly is untenable but suppose Lyons gave you a sincere and plausible rationale for how we got here. You may still think he is incompetent and should lose his job. That's not what SPK is saying. He is saying Lyons' personal relationship trumped the best interest of the school. This is not incompentence; this is immediately cause for discharge.

It is a strong accusation from someone who over the years has demonstrated solid insider information. It would be beneficial if he clarified his statement.
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You can never prove that about a personal relationship but it looks like Lyons signed what was in the works and presented to him (although the timing still doesn't make sense since Pat was hired during Kevin's first year, and the extension was put together in year two.

The real issue is exactly WHO initiated the addendum (everyone is in radio-silence on that one!!). The fact that Pat just "signed-off" tells me is that as the AD, he should have been the one to push back in that it was too lucrative for a coach that had accomplished absolutely nothing thus far. If you feel that strongly, you don't have to sign-off on it....so either Pat supported the extension (culpable) and/or demonstrated that he's really not that good an AD to begin with by rubber-stamping a bad deal.
 
80 -

1. Dan has chosen not to reply, at least here. However, I am confident my memory of that time is correct.
2. Presumably, Dan will discuss SPK's accusations behind the wall as well, which is fine by me. Dan's opinion of Pat Lyons is well documented. It's SPK's elaboration I am interested in, should he choose to address it.
This post was edited on 3/9 12:56 PM by knowknow456
 
Boatshu I love that I am the poster-boy for greed, excess and douchebagery on this board! My guess is those getting so aggravated by me pointing out there is a lot of opportunity, to donate either time or money to the school, donate the least. Who can argue with wanting to galvinize people to do more with my dry/sarcastic humor? I also love to know the background of people posting on the board as it is great to know a little perspective on the poster. All you guys know about me is I own an Executive Search Firm (which I only pointed out with my posts on Corporate Culture and employment branding), donate a portion of my income and time to the school I love, have my name on NOTHING in the athletic department, and get aggravated when people want to spend my money (when they don't donate enough) on a buyout I don't support. If that makes me a douche sign me up! Instead of posting a new thread about how aggravated you are with the University on a messageboard why not connect more with the University, volunteer, donate a little more and have a voice that is heard face to face? Regardless of what you do for a living if not for SHU you'd be that 25 year old guy living above his mom's garage I joked about!
 
your points about donating, volunteering, etc are one thing. The problem is that you're using the current situation as an excuse to self-aggrandize about your career, wealth & status. You're coming off like a greedy, money-obsessed egomaniac who can't wait to tell everyone how much money they have and then spend on SHU. it's ridiculous & makes you look really, really small. You're obviously a man in his 40's or older who has accomplished a decent amount. Act like it.
 
Originally posted by Jerry1992:
He is one of the many arrogant big donors on this board whom feel their opinions are more valuable than others. Another to add to ignore.
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1. I don't get the idea that jimmy thinks he is more valuable than others.

2. Assuming jimmy is a reasonably consistent donor of some nice money, he IS a more valuable guy to the school than most of us. At least more valuable than me.
 
We have a coach who in five years has accomplished absolutely nothing yet was given a contract that makes it impossible to get rid of him. Somebody has to be accountable for that. That contract didn't materialize out of thin air, somebody wrote it.

In the meantime we waste another year with a coach who has already established his incompetence. And we sink further into the abyss. Lovely.
 
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