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- Thread starter Halldan1
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What I mean is "lifetime ban" should mean his lifetime. Who else's lifetime could it possibly be? I'm fine with leaving him out. But if people are going to lobby for Rose to get in, then why aren't they lobbying on behalf of Shoeless Joe Jackson? Why is one lifetime ban considered different than the other?
If Ryan had played, say, 10 of his 27 seasons on strong teams with strong defense up the middle and decent hitters, he would have won at least 25 more decisions. (I'm being very conservative.) That would have put him at 349-267 instead of 324-292.
He wanted to be in Texas with his family so he sacrificed the ablilty to play for a sure contender.
He was an animal. He was still throwing in the 90s when he retired.
Of course I was just a kid at the time but like most Brooklyn Dodger fans we felt abandoned or orphaned by the team and more specifically their owner Walter O'Malley. The Dodgers were extremely successful in Brooklyn & this was a money grab. Oddly unlike the Brooklyn fans who for the most part never rooted for the team again, many Giant fans stuck with their team even on the west coast. Another reason is that the Dodgers were an old team when they left town & within 2-3 years most all of our Brooklyn hero's were gone. Giant fans however still had Willie Mays to root for even if he was 3,000 away.
The ongoing joke at the time was " if you had Hitler, Stalin & O'Malley locked in a room & you had a pistol but only 2 bullets what do you do? Answer is shoot O'Malley twice to make sure he's really dead.
Tom K
A few of those years Nolan Ryan pitched for the Angels, they were the worst team in baseball. The team's overall record didn't show it because of their 1-2 starting pitching combo of Ryan and Frank Tanana (and in the year before Tanana, Ryan and Bill Singer). One year, Frank Robinson led the team in RBI with 63. And this was in the DH era. If Ryan would have gotten any run support at all, he would have had a couple 25-plus win seasons in a row. And I'm being way conservative because he won 21 and 22 games anyway. A remarkable pitcher.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
Gotcha. I guess I just never took "lifetime ban" that literally. I also think that the steroid era changed my perspective a bit on the Rose situation. He never cheated so seeing all these guys who did (and denied it as adamantly as Rose denied gambling) have made him somewhat of a sympathetic figure in my mind. So did the Jim Gray interview years ago.
I understand your point about the cheaters. The steroid era took its toll on a lot of hardcore baseball fans, myself included. Perhaps we were all guilty of viewing our favorite sport as being too pure, which made Rose's "sin" seem much worse. Now we have a situation where Rose is "banned" while the cheaters just aren't being voted in. So I suppose there's a double standard there that's unfair to Rose. Also, some of the steroid guys have worked jobs in Major League Baseball but not Rose. So I can be swayed into changing my mind about Rose. In terms of the Hall of Fame, I just think they should be consistent. People who go to museums should learn something about the subject. That means not hiding the bad stuff, which is what's going on now. Doing that makes the Hall of Fame a fake.
For what it's worth in my view Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for his performances as a player. The gambling offenses occurred after his playing career was over. I also think Shoeless Joe Jackson should have been inducted years ago. He and the other White Sox players of 1919 were tried & acquited of any wrong doing. How can baseball over rule our court system.
Tom K.
Tom K.
I agree with you about Shoeless Joe, Tom. Unfortunately, no one takes up the cause of a dead guy.
But I disagree on separating Rose the player from Rose the manager. To me the two combine for one big package. It's why I feel Gil Hodges belongs. Marginal as a player but the '69 Mets put him over the top.
But I disagree on separating Rose the player from Rose the manager. To me the two combine for one big package. It's why I feel Gil Hodges belongs. Marginal as a player but the '69 Mets put him over the top.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I think it was just the difference in our interpretation of "lifetime ban". I never took it literally. If there's a precedent for lifting a ban just because someone is deceased, I'm not aware of it. My only point was if Rose is deserving at some point, why not let him experience it. I do agree with Jim's point about fully disclosing things when it comes to preserving history. No reason they couldn't add a sentence or two to his plaque referencing the gambling part of his legacy.
Dan, Kelso is one of my favorite sport figures..was one of the most competitive race horse of his time..
Gil Hodges numbers and defense were good enough to be inducted alone and when you add in his managing it should have put him over the top but the voters did not consider his career as a manager. He did receive more votes than any player not inducted however.
"Marginal as a player is a poor use of words". "Borderline Hall of Famer" would be better. But Jim is right. Dead guys don't get the benefit of the doubt.
TK
"Marginal as a player is a poor use of words". "Borderline Hall of Famer" would be better. But Jim is right. Dead guys don't get the benefit of the doubt.
TK
Tom, what I meant is that Hodges' Hall of Fame credentials are marginal as a player. You're right, borderline would have been a much better word to use. My main point is that voters should consider the total career of the individual, which in Hodges' case is player plus manager. That would make him a slam dunk, in my opinion. I don't understand why the two things aren't considered together. Perhaps it's because Hodges is unique in that way.
You can't respond to someone who said "Mickey Mantle. And there is nobody else" with the mention of Joe DiMaggio. You might as well say you're a fan of outfield drainage covers.
What might have been. I couldn't find the quote (I heard it years ago on a TV Mickey Mantle special), so I may be wrong, but I think Buck Leonard said that he thought that if Mantle hadn't gotten injured, we might have seen him get 80 home runs and 100 stolen bases in a season.
Think about the combination of raw speed and power. Before the injury and even for a time after it he was both the fastest man in MLB and also the strongest. There was nothing the switch hitting Mantle couldn't do between the lines.
All taken away from him because he had to play RF in homage to an old Joe DiMaggio which caused him to blow out his knee running over a drainage cover in Yankee Stadium.
http://www.themick.com/10homers.html
Man, how depressing is it to watch Chase Utley nowadays. Needs to be put down. WORLD F'ING CHAMPIONS. Could have been MVP of the 09 WS in a losing effort.
Mine are:
Alltime
1. Cole Hamels: World Series MVP
2: Brian Dawkins: Weapon X
3. Allen Iverson: The Answer
Current:
1. Cole Hamels
2. Claude Giroux
3. Jake Voracek
Philly sports are in a terrible state I cant even think of one player I like from the Sixers or Eagles at all. Maybe the kicker Parkey. Too much roster turnover.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I gave both utley and Hamels some consideration. Utley played (yea, unfortunately have to use the past tense with him) all out all the time. Probably part of the reason he broke down too soon. His deke to 1b before throwing home in game 5 against the Rays is one of the most underappreciated plays I can think of. Jeter gets his hair mussed on a foul ball play during a regular season game and it's been on a tape loop ever since.
The Phillies also had a practice of burying players in the minors too long. Ryan Howard would be a borderline HOF candidate had his 1st full year not been his age 26 year. He was blocked by Thome for a while, but he should have gotten a full time shot long before he did.
I followed hamels ever since he was drafted, and remember exactly where I was and what beer I was drinking when he made his debut. He was nothing short of clutch in '08. Kind of sad that my main reason for checking my Twitter feed these days is to see who they are in talks with trading him to.
The Phillies also had a practice of burying players in the minors too long. Ryan Howard would be a borderline HOF candidate had his 1st full year not been his age 26 year. He was blocked by Thome for a while, but he should have gotten a full time shot long before he did.
I followed hamels ever since he was drafted, and remember exactly where I was and what beer I was drinking when he made his debut. He was nothing short of clutch in '08. Kind of sad that my main reason for checking my Twitter feed these days is to see who they are in talks with trading him to.
Phillies still do bury guys in the minors too long. Just look at Fanco, dont see why it took so long to bring him up.
Yea I think any team looking to win the WS this year would be stupid not to take Hamels. Arguably the most consistent pitcher especially when it comes to injuries and durability.
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anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I'm actually OK with how they handled Franco. He's only 22 and struggled in the bigs last year. Leaving him down this year bought them a year of control which is a good business move considering they aren't contending for 2-3 more years. Howard, and even Utley, had some of their prime years wasted in the minors and platooning in the bigs during a period when the franchise was starting to turn the corner. That approach also led to extending them well past their prime years which is what we are painfully witnessing now.
