JETS/GIANTS QB'S & THE #1 DRAFT PICK

[SnakeTom]

One thing you have to consider with Quarterbacks is how good their team is. It's hard to be successful with no receivers or offensive line. The jury is still out on Jones & Darnold. I think both could be good, tho not elite, if they had a good supporting cast. The draft is always a crap shoot. You look at the draft and see Wilson in 3rd round, Brady in 6th or Romo undrafted. Then you have San Diego giving up on Drew Brees after his 3rd year. Also the Jets and Giants both had QB's like Lamar Jackson, Pat Mahomes and Deshaun Watson still available when they picked. It is easy to be an expert while looking in a rear view mirror. The real weakness of both teams was poor GM's who continuously made bad moves and draft picks.

So here is my question: if either the Jets or Giants have the first pick this year do you trade Jones or Darnold & pick Trevor Lawrence at #1, keep the current QB & draft the top non QB player in the draft or trade the top pick for a bounty of additional picks ? Your thoughts ?

Tom K

 

[Halldan1]

You listen to what the deals are but you would have to be incredibly overwhelmed to pass on Lawrence. And by overwhelmed I mean multiple high picks and quality players as well. None with ridiculous contracts. And even then you probably don't make the trade.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

You listen to what the deals are but you would have to be incredibly overwhelmed to pass on Lawrence. And by overwhelmed I mean multiple high picks and quality players as well. None with ridiculous contracts. And even then you probably don't make the trade.

Makes no sense to draft another phenom qb when one already on payroll as top 10 pick. Yes i realize zona did this recently. However, without enhancing other positions it will be rinse and repeat with field team performance.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

btw, i have seen and heard a lot about how Qb so and so in the next marino, montana, elway over last 20 years and yeah not so much

 

[Halldan1]

Makes no sense to draft another phenom qb when one already on payroll as top 10 pick. Yes i realize zona did this recently. However, without enhancing other positions it will be rinse and repeat with field team performance.

The number a player was chosen is inconsequential if said player is not performing to that level.

Plus after three years, which would be the case with Darnold, he is closing in on the completion of his rookie contract which means you have to decide on making a considerable future investment with him.

In the case of the Jets they have the rest of the season to decide, but questionable talent or not surrounding him, Darnold has to show more than he has to date.

Consistency is the key, not just flashes of your talent.

 

[The Crows Nest]

One thing you have to consider with Quarterbacks is how good their team is. It's hard to be successful with no receivers or offensive line. The jury is still out on Jones & Darnold. I think both could be good, tho not elite, if they had a good supporting cast. The draft is always a crap shoot. You look at the draft and see Wilson in 3rd round, Brady in 6th or Romo undrafted. Then you have San Diego giving up on Drew Brees after his 3rd year. Also the Jets and Giants both had QB's like Lamar Jackson, Pat Mahomes and Deshaun Watson still available when they picked. It is easy to be an expert while looking in a rear view mirror. The real weakness of both teams was poor GM's who continuously made bad moves and draft picks.

So here is my question: if either the Jets or Giants have the first pick this year do you trade Jones or Darnold & pick Trevor Lawrence at #1, keep the current QB & draft the top non QB player in the draft or trade the top pick for a bounty of additional picks ? Your thoughts ?

Tom K

If I am the Jets...take Lawrence. I like Sam....but that may be part of the problem. That laid back California style just may not work here...especially if you are not uber talented...and he appears not to be.
Plus get this GM his QB....then his Coach....and lets see what we can do.

 

[dehere23]

I’m a Giants fan, although I certainly have no dislike for the Jets. I loved Darnold coming out of the draft (actually wanted the Giants to take him). He’s in a tough spot. I think he needs to show more but the lack of talent around him this year is astounding.

I think Jones has showed more upside than Darnold since the former took over last year. He’s also had more weapons, although an offensive line that has been equally bad if not worse. With Jones, to state the obvious, it’s all about the ball security.

I’m a believer in Jones as a Giants fan based on the body of work to date. I think he can be a good and maybe very good QB for the next decade. I’m still a believer in Darnold as well although in year 3 I think the lack of progress is less understandable than Jones.

All that said, Lawrence projects as the best prospect since Luck, I think. It will be fascinating to see what either franchise does if put in the position to have to make that call.

 

[hallgrad80]

You listen to what the deals are but you would have to be incredibly overwhelmed to pass on Lawrence. And by overwhelmed I mean multiple high picks and quality players as well. None with ridiculous contracts. And even then you probably don't make the trade.

if you believe that the most important position on any NFL team is the QB and you have a chance to select a talent like Lawrence you don’t pass on him .

 

[NYShoreGuy]

if you believe that the most important position on any NFL team is the QB and you have a chance to select a talent like Lawrence you don’t pass on him .

I disagree on this. What is he without a line to protect him or enough skill position support? Just another phenom who's career narrative changes with losing.

 

[hallgrad80]

I disagree on this. What is he without a line to protect him or enough skill position support? Just another phenom who's career narrative changes with losing.

I’d still take my franchise QB and use him as the center of my rebuild but I understand the philosophy behind your reasoning .

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I’d still take my franchise QB and use him as the center of my rebuild but I understand the philosophy behind your reasoning .

I feel we see this approach or mindset every year in drumming up interest in the draft and who the next great ones we the fans and the sports media at large propel to.

I have been a fan of the NY Giants since I was 4. I have had interest in the NFL in a broader sense since the mid 90s. I used to be into drafts and the coverage but there is such a terrible reject/failure rate. Part of it is a player plateaus, part of it is coaching development and part of it is a program that was presumed to turn around becomes a dumpster and a head coach and gm lose their job.

1999 5 qb go top 12, mcnabb and culpepper have best careers, both declined due to awful injuries, other 3 guys were a mess

2004 best class maybe since 1983 for sustained longevity and above grade quality, 3 hofers

2005 alex smith vs aaron rodgers

2006 another big drumming up support year young leinart and jay cutler

2007 jamarcus russell needed a life coach more than any other coach on a football field, brady quinn lost at catch 22

2008 next best since 2004 matt ryan joe flacco

2009 stafford sanchez freeman yikes

2010 drum up of sam bradford

2011 repeat of 1999 4 qb in top 12

2012 luck had all the makings of a marino type career and instead became the don mattingly of his era, rg3 yikes

2014 bortles, manziel, bridgewater, feel for teddy because he has different better path without knee issue

2015 another drumming up top of draft winston and mariota

2016 goff and wentz can sustained success happen for either?

2017 trubisky mahomes watson, latter 2 will be better than 2008 class and up there with 2004

2018 another class of 99 feel, josh allen showing he is the anomaly

2019 3 in top 15 too soon to call

2020 4 in top 26 too soon to call

 

[hallgrad80]

Nice Recap Shore Guy and the debate now becomes does your recap support my position or yours. My philosophy has always recognized that every draft pick comes with risk and that when you have a chance to grab a special player with the overall #1. pick you take that risk especially if it’s a QB.

 

[Jerry1992]

Lawrence is too good to pass up. Both teams should take him if they get top pick.

 

[ed odowd]

You take Lawrence if you have number 1 pick.

 

[NYC Pirate]

It depends I'd say. For either the Jets or Giants to get the number one pick they will have
to continue playing at this current level. In fairness the Giants were very competitive the first 2 games. The Jets on the other hand have not been in any of their 3 games. I guess winning 3 or less games would put a team near the bottom. I still think the Giants will win a few games.

If the Jets get the #1 pick I believe they will take Trevor Lawrence and trade Darnold at some point. I would say the Giants would most likely take Lawrence, but no guarantee. Gase would be long gone by that point. In fact he may not make it to November. You would have to imagine that Gettleman would be out and a new GM would not have that connection to Jones.

My pick in 2018 was Josh Allen. I liked him over Darnold and Rosen. Mayfield wasn't on my radar. I liked Jackson, but never thought he would play at this level. I thought Allen had intangibles and was a true football player. I knew the Giants were in love with Barkley. I was OK with the pick they made at the time.

 

[hallgrad80]

If Gettleman we’re still the GM and the Giants had the number one overall pick I think his ego and his mentality is such that he would not admit Jones is not the answer to who replaces Eli and the Giants trade that Pick for players and multiple draft choices. If Gettleman is out then Lawrence probably winds up as a Giant and not just based on his talent alone. The Giant fan base and the NY print and broadcast media is increasingly critical not only of the Giant effort and results on the field but of ownership , primarily Mara , and I believe that forces the Giants hand to not only fire Gettleman but to get a stud QB with that pick as a way of quieting a very vocal and angry fan base.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

8 teams winless right now, 6 are 0-3, 2 are 0-2-1

Gonna be a lot of coaching carousel soon

 

[Section112]

Trevor Lawrence has it all. Size (6-6, 220), ridiculous arm strength and accuracy. The kid is 6-6 and has been timed at 4.7 in the 40 yard dash? He plays in an offense that is becoming a pro set offense more and more with run pass options etc. He is also very smart and there are no issues on his being a good citizen at all. He has the potential to be the next Mahomes but even much better. Any team that has the opportunity to get him should as long as he stays healthy with the exception of just a few NFL teams that have an established stud QB and that is not many (KC, Buffalo, Baltimore, Arizona, Houston and Cincy just took Burrow). I would even argue that if Green Bay had a chance to get him they should, but they won't be at the bottom of the draft. He will be far better than Jones or Darnold. Then you protect him.

 

[The SHUttle]

I feel we see this approach or mindset every year in drumming up interest in the draft and who the next great ones we the fans and the sports media at large propel to.

I have been a fan of the NY Giants since I was 4. I have had interest in the NFL in a broader sense since the mid 90s. I used to be into drafts and the coverage but there is such a terrible reject/failure rate. Part of it is a player plateaus, part of it is coaching development and part of it is a program that was presumed to turn around becomes a dumpster and a head coach and gm lose their job.

1999 5 qb go top 12, mcnabb and culpepper have best careers, both declined due to awful injuries, other 3 guys were a mess

2004 best class maybe since 1983 for sustained longevity and above grade quality, 3 hofers

2005 alex smith vs aaron rodgers

2006 another big drumming up support year young leinart and jay cutler

2007 jamarcus russell needed a life coach more than any other coach on a football field, brady quinn lost at catch 22

2008 next best since 2004 matt ryan joe flacco

2009 stafford sanchez freeman yikes

2010 drum up of sam bradford

2011 repeat of 1999 4 qb in top 12

2012 luck had all the makings of a marino type career and instead became the don mattingly of his era, rg3 yikes

2014 bortles, manziel, bridgewater, feel for teddy because he has different better path without knee issue

2015 another drumming up top of draft winston and mariota

2016 goff and wentz can sustained success happen for either?

2017 trubisky mahomes watson, latter 2 will be better than 2008 class and up there with 2004

2018 another class of 99 feel, josh allen showing he is the anomaly

2019 3 in top 15 too soon to call

2020 4 in top 26 too soon to call

Where this falls apart is that this assumes people want Lawrence because some talking heads say so. For me, it is based on actually watching him. My opinion of not particularly wanting Darnold was based on actually watching him. My opinion of being okay with moving on from Jones for the right QB even though he has shown glimpses of the potential to be good is based on actually watching him.

 

[The SHUttle]

The hope also is that the Giants don't once again screw up being terrible and cost themselves a difference-maker like Chase Young by winning meaningless games.

 

[hallgrad80]

The Giants did get one big break Sunday when they played in an empty stadium and didn’t have to listen to what would have been a continuous chorus of boos from a angry, frustrated and fed up fan base . I sometimes wonder if Mara and Tisch truly recognize just how bad the Giants have been and how turned off the fan base is because there is so little to be positive about.

 

[TheHall87]

Lawrence would be an upgrade over either Jones or Darnold and right now it doesn't seem to be close. Unless you're blown away by a package for him you take him and build around him. Otherwise, you're sticking with Sam Bowie when Michael Jordan is available.

 

[The SHUttle]

The Giants did get one big break Sunday when they played in an empty stadium and didn’t have to listen to what would have been a continuous chorus of boos from a angry, frustrated and fed up fan base . I sometimes wonder if Mara and Tisch truly recognize just how bad the Giants have been and how turned off the fan base is because there is so little to be positive about.

You do get the unfortunate feeling that they seem to think they are close, but anyone who watches the team with any objectivity knows they are not close. The WR corps is terrible. The supposed dangerous TE generally isn't. Both lines are terrible. We still have not solved how to defend against a TE running a straight-line route up the middle of the field. The team is a joke.

 

[Potbelly407]

The hope also is that the Giants don't once again screw up being terrible and cost themselves a difference-maker like Chase Young by winning meaningless games.

That stupid overtime win could haunt this franchise a looonnnggg time

 

[hallgrad80]

You do get the unfortunate feeling that they seem to think they are close, but anyone who watches the team with any objectivity knows they are not close. The WR corps is terrible. The supposed dangerous TE generally isn't. Both lines are terrible. We still have not solved how to defend against a TE running a straight-line route up the middle of the field. The team is a joke.

What I see is a team that has regressed and played worse then it’s previous game and look overmatched no matter who they’re playing . I wonder how John Mara feels since his goal for this year was for the Giants to show progress and play meaningful games in December a goal that seems unattainable.

 

[hbkmyr]

The Giants did get one big break Sunday when they played in an empty stadium and didn’t have to listen to what would have been a continuous chorus of boos from a angry, frustrated and fed up fan base . I sometimes wonder if Mara and Tisch truly recognize just how bad the Giants have been and how turned off the fan base is because there is so little to be positive about.

I dont wonder at all. They are completely oblivious.

 

[hbkmyr]

What I see is a team that has regressed and played worse then it’s previous game and look overmatched no matter who they’re playing . I wonder how John Mara feels since his goal for this year was for the Giants to show progress and play meaningful games in December a goal that seems unattainable.

It depends on what day of the week you ask John Mara since he flip flops all over the place.

 

[dehere23]

Look the Giants have been a mess of late and so any criticism they take is fair game. I’m also still a believer generally in the ownership. Before recent the Giants would have been locks to be considered to be of the most stable franchises with excellent ownership. 5 Super Bowls and more importantly 4 SB victories since the mid80s gets you that tag (I know they were a mess before that until the league stepped in and put Young in place). That type of success is worth a lot in my book especially considering I’m a Hall fan who would kill for even 1/10 of that level.

 

[lloyde dobler]

Giants becoming like Georgetown hoops

 

[dehere23]

Long time to go before that. Giants have won 4 titles since Georgetown won its last. More like Uconn if they struggle for the next few years now that they are back in our league (and I don't think they will).

I think these hard times make fans appreciate Coughlin and Eli even more.

Still, if you are 40 years old (or older) you have seen and remember 4 Super Bowl victories, 2 of which are among the greatest upsets of all time, and a 5th appearance in the big game that you'd probably rather forget. Most NFL fans can't say that. Those Super Bowl titles go a long, long way for a fan. Think about how much we celebrate 5 consecutive NCAA tourneys despite little success in the dance. If we even had one title during that run we'd be grateful for that for the rest of our lives.

 

[lloyde dobler]

The past history is great, but you can’t get too caught up in it.

 

[dehere23]

I agree. But recent history matters, too. I'm a Knicks fan, but their last titles are so far removed that I think it is pretty meaningless for most of the current fan base. Even those who recall the great Clyde/Willis teams and experienced the success, will not necessarily account for that given how bad the franchise has been for so long and the longevity between titles.

If you are a Giant fan of most ages, you have been spoiled compared to the rest of most NFL fan bases.

Titles matter. Especially when you have a bunch in recent memory. You give me a National Championship with the Hall and I'll easily trade you 5 years of being at the bottom of the Big East. Likely more. Hell we would throw a parade for a Sweet 16.

 

[Section112]

I really think John Mara has a lot to do with the current trajectory as well as Chris Mara who is head of player personnel. First they screwed up the new stadium royally. It is one of the worst stadiums in the league. But their bad decisions at GM and unwillingness to change their approach as the NFL has changed have really screwed the Giants. Titles matter but they simply have not gotten it done and the current direction is suspect not because of the coaching staff but because of the talent. They kept Reese too long and now are doing the same with Getty. They have had a few wins with personnel, but not nearly as many as they need and have been outsmarted by many other teams in the league. It is that simple.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I really think John Mara has a lot to do with the current trajectory as well as Chris Mara who is head of player personnel. First they screwed up the new stadium royally. It is one of the worst stadiums in the league. But their bad decisions at GM and unwillingness to change their approach as the NFL has changed have really screwed the Giants. Titles matter but they simply have not gotten it done and the current direction is suspect not because of the coaching staff but because of the talent. They kept Reese too long and now are doing the same with Getty. They have had a few wins with personnel, but not nearly as many as they need and have been outsmarted by many other teams in the league. It is that simple.

Why does mara get total blame on the current venue? Jets no involvement, state no involvement?
Shouldnt snoopy also get some blame?

 

[Section112]

Why does mara get total blame on the current venue? Jets no involvement, state no involvement?
Shouldnt snoopy also get some blame?

Sure the Jets should be blamed too but the Giants were the initial team running the build. MetLife made a bad investment as well. That stadium is simply awful!

 

[hallgrad80]

The Giants don’t have one impact player on defense and offensively the one player who has impact potential is Barkley but has not had a OL in place to enable him to be that impact player and the blame for that lies with management primarily , John Mara, Chris Mara, Gettleman, Reese and Marc Ross.

 

[lloyde dobler]

Wasn’t Tisch the Giants point guy with the stadium build?

 

[Section112]

Wasn’t Tisch the Giants point guy with the stadium build?

Not sure but whoever was involved crapped the bed.

 

[metalpirate07]

Not sure but whoever was involved crapped the bed.

If I remember correctly, the current stadium "battleship blah" look was a result of both teams being maxed out on the amount of money they could put in with loans/guarantees from the league, and not wanting to favor either team as the Jets were understandably bitter about playing for years in a stadium painted blue and red and named after another team, so they went with all neutral colors and LEDs that could change color with the flip of a switch. They asked the state if they could chip in money to put a roof on the place to host Super Bowls, Final Fours, etc, and the state said no. I heard a rumor somewhere around the opening that the design took into account the chance of going back and putting a roof on later if money became available, but I'm not sure if that would still be feasible at this point, or who would pay for it. They did everything on the cheap and it STILL cost something like $1.5 Billion to build the place due to the insane Union prevailing wage costs in NJ relative to other places, which is why the Cowboys built a palace for about the same amount of money, and we got a battleship moored in a parking lot. The league came up with the outdoor super bowl gimmick as a way to try and toss the teams a bone back for doing all of that, but that was such a disaster it will never happen again. I wonder if it would have been cheaper to just renovate the old stadium instead, or was it just too far gone structurally? Also it's not like the old stadium was much of a prize either let's be real here. It's more like one "meh" stadium was replaced with another "meh" stadium with more modern amenities which have not aged well relative to other stadiums built since then.

Full disclosure: I'm a Jets fan, and I agree the Jets are worse, and despite John and Chris Mara doing their best to repeat the out of touch cluelessness of their father in the 70s staying too old school while the league passed them by, they are still far better owners than the Johnson twits, who are a half step above James Dolan for the worst owners remaining in professional sports now that the Wilpons are finally on their way out. The only thing better about the Jets currently is their GM and cap space, but don't worry, the Johnsons will screw that up too just like they have with everything else, and just like they did when they spent like drunken sailors before the 2015 season and got nothing for it.

 

[Section112]

If I remember correctly, the current stadium "battleship blah" look was a result of both teams being maxed out on the amount of money they could put in with loans/guarantees from the league, and not wanting to favor either team as the Jets were understandably bitter about playing for years in a stadium painted blue and red and named after another team, so they went with all neutral colors and LEDs that could change color with the flip of a switch. They asked the state if they could chip in money to put a roof on the place to host Super Bowls, Final Fours, etc, and the state said no. I heard a rumor somewhere around the opening that the design took into account the chance of going back and putting a roof on later if money became available, but I'm not sure if that would still be feasible at this point, or who would pay for it. They did everything on the cheap and it STILL cost something like $1.5 Billion to build the place due to the insane Union prevailing wage costs in NJ relative to other places, which is why the Cowboys built a palace for about the same amount of money, and we got a battleship moored in a parking lot. The league came up with the outdoor super bowl gimmick as a way to try and toss the teams a bone back for doing all of that, but that was such a disaster it will never happen again. I wonder if it would have been cheaper to just renovate the old stadium instead, or was it just too far gone structurally? Also it's not like the old stadium was much of a prize either let's be real here. It's more like one "meh" stadium was replaced with another "meh" stadium with more modern amenities which have not aged well relative to other stadiums built since then.

Full disclosure: I'm a Jets fan, and I agree the Jets are worse, and despite John and Chris Mara doing their best to repeat the out of touch cluelessness of their father in the 70s staying too old school while the league passed them by, they are still far better owners than the Johnson twits, who are a half step above James Dolan for the worst owners remaining in professional sports now that the Wilpons are finally on their way out. The only thing better about the Jets currently is their GM and cap space, but don't worry, the Johnsons will screw that up too just like they have with everything else, and just like they did when they spent like drunken sailors before the 2015 season and got nothing for it.

They wanted more corporate boxes and had this grand idea about putting some of those boxes on the field. They sold out their long-time Giants fans by pushing back the mezzanine and upper tier as a result of putting those boxes in and you are right the gray block coloring inside the stadium or lack thereof was due to two teams trying to share the space. Butt ugly design and very expensive due to union labor.