Sanogo

[Piratz]

According to Willard, Ish popped his shoulder out and it was popped back in. Must be a dislocation.

Hate seeing this on a kid that plays his heart out and was really coming into his own, having a great season. But hopefully he can rehab the area quickly and get back soon. We need him.

 

[TomD82]

According to Willard, Ish popped his shoulder out and it was popped back in. Must be a dislocation.

Hate seeing this on a kid that plays his heart out and was really coming into his own, having a great season. But hopefully he can rehab the area quickly and get back soon. We need him.

I also just heard that on 970 AM. Sounds like a Mobley type injury and he will need some time.

 

[Section112]

That stinks. He was playing so well.

 

[statenman]

MRI will show how much injury to ligaments and tendons. Until then there is no use speculating about how long it will be or if it's a Mobley like injury. Let's hope for the best.

 

[Halldan1]

Jerry Carino ‏@NJHoopsHaven 9h9 hours ago

Willard on Ish Sanogo injury: “Popped his shoulder out pretty good…going to be sore for a while.” Sounds questionable for Rutgers Saturday.

 

[mjs428]

Wouldn't play him til 12/19

 

[Shuathelete]

@donnie_baseball

Whats the best case scenario here?

If more recovery time = less chance of future dislocation, i think we should put Ish on long term IR. It would be nice if he could play this season, but its most likely a lost cause. I (of all people) actually think next year we have a legitimate shot at the tournament, and Ish is a big part of that. Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely and the additions of thomas and powell could mean good things. Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential, but another year he will still be good. Just hope his desire to go to the NBA doesnt take control of the team.

I really like what Ish has become in such a short time (maybe he was decent last year was just never played). Im super positive about next season, and i dont want Ish to not be a part of it because we rushed him back from this injury. No rush imo.

 

[donnie_baseball]

@donnie_baseball

Whats the best case scenario here?

If more recovery time = less chance of future dislocation, i think we should put Ish on long term IR. It would be nice if he could play this season, but its most likely a lost cause. I (of all people) actually think next year we have a legitimate shot at the tournament, and Ish is a big part of that. Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely and the additions of thomas and powell could mean good things. Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential, but another year he will still be good. Just hope his desire to go to the NBA doesnt take control of the team.

I really like what Ish has become in such a short time (maybe he was decent last year was just never played). Im super positive about next season, and i dont want Ish to not be a part of it because we rushed him back from this injury. No rush imo.

It depends. Some people are more skeletally immature than others, and at higher risk for recurrence. I'm sure he will be treated conservatively. He could return sooner than later (safely) in a brace like Mobley wore, but it really restricts getting your arm over your head, so you become a one-armed rebounder/player.

There's a lot of variability, obviously, and without knowing the details of the case, I'd say a safe estimate is that we lose him for about a month, with this week dedicated to rest, icing and gentle range of motion, progressing into shoulder stabilization exercises, and avoidance of situations that put him at risk. It was a freak play.

 

[Section112]

Feel terrible for Ish. He was the big surprise on the court this year. It appears he worked very hard in the off season and his hard work was paying off. He gave us great minutes and was very active on the court. He lead the team in minutes. Hope he can strengthen those muscles around his shoulder so this does not happen again.

 

[hallgrad80]

Would love to see him back but wouldn't rush it let him heal properly. If he isn't ready until there's only a few games left I'd redshirt him as that extra year eligibility would really help him become a major force for us.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Would love to see him back but wouldn't rush it let him heal properly. If he isn't ready until there's only a few games left I'd redshirt him as that extra year eligibility would really help into a major force for us.

probably just participated in enough of the season to lose the chance to medically redshirt

 

[Piratz]

It's hard to get these kids to sit out a season if they can play though. Playing at this level is what they want to do, it's what they work at, what they love. Asking them to sit out for a year is a lot, not to mention what it does to their lives in potentially staying in school an extra year later.

Hoping for a speedy recovery for Ish. In addition to the physical rehab, will have to see how he is mentally in terms of favoring it or getting back to a confidence level once it heals up well.

In the case of Brandon Mobley, I think he had injured it a second time and went from a kid who attacked the rim hard as a freshman to more of a pronounced stretch-4 type, secondary rebounder by the time he was a Senior. Always thought those injuries had a role in that because he seemed aware. Granted, everyone is different, and Mobley had a much different frame and build than Sanogo, so really can't compare physically.

 

[sami]

I just have to point out shualthelete's logic...

"Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely" but "Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential".

I'm no Willard apologist, but it's just ridiculous that anything bad is all KW's fault and anything positive is due to assistant coaches or individual herculean efforts.

Why can't IW coach himself into his potential if the other guys seem to be self starters?

 

[Shuathelete]

I just have to point out shualthelete's logic...

"Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely" but "Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential".

I'm no Willard apologist, but it's just ridiculous that anything bad is all KW's fault and anything positive is due to assistant coaches or individual herculean efforts.

Why can't IW coach himself into his potential if the other guys seem to be self starters?

Easy. Because Whitehead has the talent, when the others had a fraction. Whitehead didnt need to mold anything in highschool and the years before. Thats why he was so good during that time. He didnt need to fix anything, because everything he did worked at that level. Not the other guys

Dont call me out. Ive been right about almost everything. When your in year 6 with a piss record every single year and glaring holes in the roster every single year, everything thing is the coaches fault. Nothing positive is due to the assistant coaches, its all on the players. Look at how Gibbs improved on his shooting... wasnt willards doing. Whitehead is used to riding his god given abilities... and when he steps up into a better league you need a coach to mold you and tell you it doesnt work like that.

If you dont think whitehead would be a 10x better player for a different coach youre out of your damn mind. Its a shame Tiny had such an influence on him. Glad he came to the hall, of course... but probably should have gone anywhere else if he truly had his career in mind. Spare me the location, playing time, tv time arguments. Its 1/3rd through year 2 and hes incredibly far away from the NBA.

 

[Shuathelete]

Thats why.

 

[Pirate64]

@donnie_baseball

Whats the best case scenario here?

If more recovery time = less chance of future dislocation, i think we should put Ish on long term IR. It would be nice if he could play this season, but its most likely a lost cause. I (of all people) actually think next year we have a legitimate shot at the tournament, and Ish is a big part of that. Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely and the additions of thomas and powell could mean good things. Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential, but another year he will still be good. Just hope his desire to go to the NBA doesnt take control of the team.

I really like what Ish has become in such a short time (maybe he was decent last year was just never played). Im super positive about next season, and i dont want Ish to not be a part of it because we rushed him back from this injury. No rush imo.

Very few coaches-except for the Pitino/Izzo types could coach Whitehead. So much is ingrained. We've paid a heavy price to have him at Seton Hall and I hope it's worth it.

 

[Halldan1]

I just have to point out shualthelete's logic...

"Guys like Carrington, Desi, Nzei, Ish have improved immensely" but "Willard clearly cant coach whitehead into even half of his potential".

I'm no Willard apologist, but it's just ridiculous that anything bad is all KW's fault and anything positive is due to assistant coaches or individual herculean efforts.

Why can't IW coach himself into his potential if the other guys seem to be self starters?

sami makes an excellent point. And we also give Holloway here a lot of credit (deservedly so) and he is as hands on with Zeke as any coach on the staff.

Whitehead will reach his potential. But it will just take time for him to unlearn many of the bad habits he learned in HS and AAU ball.

The player is an immense talent.

 

[Shuathelete]

sami makes an excellent point. And we also give Holloway here a lot of credit (deservedly so) and he is as hands on with Zeke as any coach on the staff.

Whitehead will reach his potential. But it will just take time for him to unlearn many of the bad habits he learned in HS and AAU ball.

The player is an immense talent.

Im extremely adamant that sami's point is far from excellent.Just bad really. He thought he found a hole in my logic and couldnt wait to point it out...but didnt really give it more than 5 seconds of thought. Shame, hate when people go out of their way to make themselves look bad. 64 makes a better point, which is why i said IW choosing SHU was most likely a mistake.

Regardless, all i said was Whillard cant coach Whitehead to half his potential. @sami please address this. Please support your argument that whitehead is any better a player (or PG more specifically) than when he first came aboard. Please keep in mind that our head coach actually PLAYED that position. Are Whitehead's NBA prospects any better than when he was a senior in highschool? Please address this.

Please address the original post answering your original post. What is youre counter point to my, and 64's, point?

Lastly, did the original statement say that willard did not have a hand in improving our other players? @sami please address this. I didnt say anything of the sort, and you put words in my mouth. I was not going out of my way to make the point that anything bad is willards fault and anything good is due to the players themselves. Even though I absolutely think that is true with our team, you went out of your way to push that sentiment, not me. For no reason you brought up anti willard thoughts and conversation in this thread. Let it be known its you, and people like you that makes this board hard to read. You exacerbate the problem. For every one negative post there are ten that bring up at that negative post for no reason, making mountains out of molehills. You think youre fighting a problem, but really youre creating the problem to fight. UNREAL.

 

[Piratz]

Very few coaches-except for the Pitino/Izzo types could coach Whitehead. So much is ingrained. We've paid a heavy price to have him at Seton Hall and I hope it's worth it.

Valid question at this stage. Whitehead has a lot to prove. I'm hopeful he'll value the process of hard work, keep at it, be a good representative of our university, and get it done!

 

[HALL85]

There are two issues at work here. 1) Coaching up a players talent and abilities and 2) Coaching the players as a team to optimize the system. There are good examples of players that have improved under this staff, and we've also seen examples of players that have not or regressed. How much is the player and how much is the coaching is debatable. I can sit here and make the case either way with Willard. The bigger issue to me is the system (whatever offensive system that is we play) and whether it's a good system for the talent or whether the coach is able to get the players to execute the system successfully. This is more on the coach because that's your job...to teach and optimize the talent in your system. This to me is the biggest part of our problem (and points to Willard).

 

[Piratz]

There are two issues at work here. 1) Coaching up a players talent and abilities and 2) Coaching the players as a team to optimize the system. There are good examples of players that have improved under this staff, and we've also seen examples of players that have not or regressed. How much is the player and how much is the coaching is debatable. I can sit here and make the case either way with Willard. The bigger issue to me is the system (whatever offensive system that is we play) and whether it's a good system for the talent or whether the coach is able to get the players to execute the system successfully. This is more on the coach because that's your job...to teach and optimize the talent in your system. This to me is the biggest part of our problem (and points to Willard).

Ish, Desi, and Carrington look vastly improved but Whitehead and Delgado don't. And this is where the team trajectory is the best measure. That's the macro. We have not had any upward trajectory. Zero program building. We've simply had ongoing fits and frustrations of inconsistency.

I thought we had some between Year 1 and Year 2 and that imploded then we couldn't recruit any guards and Year 3 was the program's worst season in nearly 30 years. At least in Year 4 we added Gibbs and Sina to a veteran core, but that was even more frustrating considering the veterans on that team and all the close losses (and player discipline) before the run at the BET. Not ready for primetime. Year 5 with the big recruiting class spoke for itself.

That's why this season is so important to see something. Something positive. So far I think the team looked better at GW than they did in the opening weekend, so that's good, LOL.

Something that improves and doesn't erode. Something that gives hope with many young players.

 

[Section112]

There are two issues at work here. 1) Coaching up a players talent and abilities and 2) Coaching the players as a team to optimize the system. There are good examples of players that have improved under this staff, and we've also seen examples of players that have not or regressed. How much is the player and how much is the coaching is debatable. I can sit here and make the case either way with Willard. The bigger issue to me is the system (whatever offensive system that is we play) and whether it's a good system for the talent or whether the coach is able to get the players to execute the system successfully. This is more on the coach because that's your job...to teach and optimize the talent in your system. This to me is the biggest part of our problem (and points to Willard).

I'm not so sure. Changing muscle memory and instinct is very hard to do and its a proces. IW has been playing ball for a long time and has been rewarded for an incredibly aggressive, strong style of play usually to get his shot off in the end. With that said he has a great ability to see the floor. You can see that in some of his passes. It's just not happening enough. And I notice with Zeke when things don't go so well, that is when he forces things especially. Almost immediately after he turns it over you will see him come down the court the next possession and try to do it all himself. And sometimes he succeeds in hitting really tough shots. Now try to change that as a coach. He got the result he needed but we didn't have to make it such a tough shot. We could have gotten our teammates involved. We could have run the offense methodically and showed some patience and gotten the same result anyway. We are now playing other teams that are as good or better than us. Do they have a player with your talent - not always. But this is a team game now. Those are all really hard concepts to teach.

The good news is that everyone says that IW works really hard. He follows Sha around and wants to desperately improve. So I really believe with time he is going to develop that patience he needs and run the offense more efficiently. The issue is we don't have much time and he probably knows it and is pressing. The process has to take hold. When it happens is the question.

 

[Piratz]

The thing that I find confounding about IW is what he looked like before his injury last year and what he's done since returning from that. Seems like different players in terms of playing within the flow, but maybe it's just my misperception.

 

[Seton75]

Very few coaches-except for the Pitino/Izzo types could coach Whitehead. So much is ingrained. We've paid a heavy price to have him at Seton Hall and I hope it's worth it.

Heavy price? We had an asst for a year who quit, and we got another starter by the association. Sign me up for this again next summer.

 

[HALL85]

Heavy price? We had an asst for a year who quit, and we got another starter by the association. Sign me up for this again next summer.

And if it results in zero NCAA appearances?

 

[Piratz]

Let's see if it pays off this year. Last year was embarrassing. Team Dysfunction.

 

[Shuathelete]

Let's see if it pays off this year. Last year was embarrassing. Team Dysfunction.

I think im the first person who is vehemently promoting next season. Next season is where its at. I think theres a chance the players have it all figured out for themselves by then.

 

[hallgrad80]

There are so many variables to player development and so many ways to get to the point where a player reaches his potential and that's especially true for those with outstanding talent and a huge upside. You need to develop the right plan to do that, put someone in charge of that development plan and make sure that the player has confidence in that person. Perhaps most importantly the player has to fully invest himself in doing what it takes to reach the point where he utilizes all his skills. And lastly if the plan doesn't appear to be working then the staff must recognize that and make the necessary adjustments.

If I were to make one suggestion and that is Willard should not be shy in going outside his current staff to help in the development of the player and andfigure out how best to implement it and get the player on board.

 

[sami]

Dude, get over yourself. I didn't say Whitehead wouldn't have been better under a better coaching regime. I wonder why any star player would come here (or any Big East school not named Villanova or Georgetown) or mid level ACC/Big Ten/SEC or any other conference school if they have the skill to go play for Coach K or Calapari or any other straight-to-NBA powerhouse school/coach.

I frankly don't care if Willard is gone tomorrow except that I think we're better off seeing this team in tact next year than a complete implosion, expulsion of players and starting over again with the same hire-the-up-and-comer approach that SHU will do.

I remember when teams improved when freshmen became sophomores, then juniors then seniors. It still happens at most mid majors, which the Big East certainly is in my opinion (let's stop pretending we're a power conference). If you want one-and-dones and epic talents that you really don't know if they develop, cheer for Kentucky. But don't be blind to the improvements we've seen in some players, though others have been complete flops. Do I say Willard is a good coach? Hells no... but there are players that have developed here, just to a much lesser rate than those that have stagnated. And that's on the player as much as the coach.

Don't be an angry little kid with the @sami this and @sami that. Go for a swim, you'll feel better.

 

[Shuathelete]

So you have absolutely no answers. Zip. Zilch. Got it. Thx.

but there are players that have developed here

What do you think the point of my original comment was? You wrote alot of stuff just now, hell even embedded a gif, all of it is complete nonsense and irrelevant. So much nothing that you ended up agreeing with me by the end of it. Will Ferrell and fun little insults cant hide how insanely trumped you are here.

You called me out and had no answer. Thats all.

 

[sami]

You must be proud of yourself... I feel so "insanely trumped".

I'll let you know when I ever feel inferior to you, thank you.

 

[HallB]

So... as interesting as this conversation is....can we talk about the person who's name is the subject of this thread? Any word on his shoulder, is he going to be available tomorrow? It will be a real shame if Ish is out for any significant amount of time. I have a hard time remembering a SHU player who has made such a dramatic improvement between his Freshman and Sophomore years.

And pardon me if I missed someone else's status posted previously.

 

[Halldan1]

So... as interesting as this conversation is....can we talk about the person who's name is the subject of this thread? Any word on his shoulder, is he going to be available tomorrow? It will be a real shame if Ish is out for any significant amount of time. I have a hard time remembering a SHU player who has made such a dramatic improvement between his Freshman and Sophomore years.

And pardon me if I missed someone else's status posted previously.

For our readers I have posted the info on the Trove.

Possibly Jerry Carino or Jon Rothstein will post info on their sites as well.

 

[TheBluePirate]

I think im the first person who is vehemently promoting next season. Next season is where its at. I think theres a chance the players have it all figured out for themselves by then.

Although I am not "in from the cold" as they said a long time ago, I'm actually moving my big expectations to next year. This year is not the make-or-break - it's the last best learning year with this great group of five. When you have Juniors, they're either totally dialed in or they are not.

If they are - then boom - the bet has been sustainable. And we continue riding the train.

If they are not - then Pat Lyons has rolled "Farkle" and there will be a very dear reckoning on all accounts.

That is all.

 

[sami]

I hate the Wait Til Next Year Mantra, but it could be interesting and a truly want to see it.

No implosions, no more injuries (get better quick Ish), show some improvement and no transfers. I'll take that as a baseline this year, anything else is gravy. Give me a real tournament team next year (not a slide in on Selection Sunday team) and I'll be happy.

 

[TheBluePirate]

I hate the Wait Til Next Year Mantra, but it could be interesting and a truly want to see it.

No implosions, no more injuries (get better quick Ish), show some improvement and no transfers. I'll take that as a baseline this year, anything else is gravy. Give me a real tournament team next year (not a slide in on Selection Sunday team) and I'll be happy.

Sami, I think this is rational.

When we look at Ken Pom for the "experience" stat, it's clear that most teams are on a gradient that skews around sophomore year, plus or minus, so a heavily loaded junior team is poised by definition to make the most hay (as it were).

I expect a modest, moderate, unexciting result this year. If that's attained, gosh, I'll be disappointed but not outraged. Next year - with a junior team fully loaded, if nothing much happens then, powza, I'll be torching non-stop. Straight up.

 

[Section112]

Yous guys are giving up too soon. Lots of basketball to be played this year. Let's hope we stay healthy and see some improvement very soon from our PG and Center especially and let's get Ish healthy and back on the court. Go Pirates!

 

[hallgrad80]

Sami, I think this is rational.

When we look at Ken Pom for the "experience" stat, it's clear that most teams are on a gradient that skews around sophomore year, plus or minus, so a heavily loaded junior team is poised by definition to make the most hay (as it were).

I expect a modest, moderate, unexciting result this year. If that's attained, gosh, I'll be disappointed but not outraged. Next year - with a junior team fully loaded, if nothing much happens then, powza, I'll be torching non-stop. Straight up.

BP
Even if every soph returns and Thomas and Powell make contributions as newcomers until we add a couple of high quality bigs who can be effective offensively we're still short on talent. Just because a sophomore becomes a junior or a freshman becomes a soph is no guarantee of improved performance. Certainly Ish has made dramatic improvement from last year while , at this point , Angel has not as examples of that premise.

 

[TheBluePirate]

LOL.

Nobody knows that we've been sharing an informative dialogue in email during all this. You've given me insight (in email) that allows me at least to just take it one day at a time. Anyway, good buddy 112, we'll just stay in the roller coaster, cheer mightily together in awesome section 9 (hey - you have to come to see Tony's team in January and February - you get tickets in section 3 - and you'll be part of the best cheering brigade for Seton Hall Athletics guaranteed!).

 

[TheBluePirate]

BP
Even if every soph returns and Thomas and Powell make contributions as freshman until we add a couple of high quality bigs who can be effective offensively we're still short on talent. Just because a sophomore becomes a junior or a freshman becomes a soph that's no guarantee of improved performance. Certainly Ish has made dramatic improvement from last year to now while , at this point , Angel has not as examples of that premise.

80, understood. I still think that the experience factor of a heavily junior-laden team will / ought to count for a lot.

If what we have now cannot finally reach the bar, then nothing will.

If we still need more (which we do not yet have), then we are already "damned" - which can only be more obvious next year.

I guess I'm saying that many things make next year the final ultimate do or die.